What if the gameplay concept of bows revolves around the choice of your special arrows?

    • Combat Balance
    • What if the gameplay concept of bows revolves around the choice of your special arrows?

      Currently it's a well known fact that bows quirk is all about kiting and damage at long range but recently more and more weapons are also able to do this, resulting of a complete removal of the bow line in his uniqueness. People will prolly tell i'm wrong and i'm completely fine with this. That's just my opinion after 3-4 years maining and playing this weapon.

      A few months ago, something was on my mind after talking with a bunch of people (shoutout to my beggar king @Gabumon who was part of launching me into this) about the state of bow. How bows could have a real unique identity from a gameplay perspective since kiting and long range damage isn't his uniqueness anymore. One thing that always comes back was the uniqueness of explosive arrows being able to proc stacks on normal attack and bow spells and i told myself what if this mechanic was the whole core gameplay of the bow line aside from kiting and long range damage? What if you chose what type of arrow you want to use and apply their unique on hit effect to your normal attacks and bow spells? After a few weeks of tought process, i present you the whole bow rework concept.

      Lots of thing would change. First, all Q's are self buffs and works the same way as the current explosive arrows. Second, some spells gets their spell slot changed, some spells are completely removed from the kit or completely reworked and i added new spell to complete the W spell roster. Last, the additionnal effects provided by all Q spell has to be well though in order to not broke the whole bow kit. In order to have a greater picture of the concept, i'll give all the basic infos. Keep in mind that for the E-spell slots, they will be no real changes and i know some E-spells need a complete rework. They should get their separate topic since this one is all about reworking the core gameplay of bows.

      BOW LINE REWORK CONCEPT



      Q-SPELL SLOT

      New - FROST ARROWS
      You quiver is loaded with 5 frost arrows. Thoses are consumed upon hitting a target with normal attacks or using bow spells.
      Each frost arrows deals 30 magic damage and slow by 20% for 1s.
      Cooldown : 3s / Range : self / Energy cost : 4 / Cast time : instant

      Rework - EXPLOSIVE ARROWS
      Your quiver is loaded with 5 explosive arrows. Thoses are consumed upon hitting a target with normal attack or using bow spells.
      Normal attacks and single target spell : Each explosive arrows deals 30 magic damage in a 5m radius.
      AoE spells : Each explosive arrows deals 30 magic damage. The damage is increased by 10% for each ennemies around the target in a 5m radius (maximum 100% damage increase).
      Cooldown : 3s / Range : self / Energy cost : 4 / Cast time : instant

      Rework - POISONED ARROWS
      Your quiver is loaded with 5 poisoned arrows. Thoses are consumed upon hitting a target with normal attack or using bow spells.
      Each poisoned arrows deals 48 magic damage over 6s (stacks up to 5 times for 240.00 magic damage over 6s).
      Cooldown : 3s / Range : self / Energy cost : 4 / Cast time : instant

      W-SPELL SLOT

      Changes - MULTISHOT
      Physical damage 115 -> 40
      Q-spell arrow consumption : 1 per cast

      Changes - DEADLY SHOT
      Physical damage 80 -> 120 / Armor & magic resist. decrease (and duration) 0.03 for 6s -> 0.1 for 5s / Cooldown 3s -> 10s / Energy cost 4 -> 12
      Q-spell arrow consumption : 1 per cast

      Changes - RAY OF LIGHT
      Magic damage 158.55 -> 200 / Root duration 1.99 -> 3 / Cooldown 14s -> 20s
      Q-spell arrow consuption : 1 per cast

      Changes - SPEED SHOT
      Physical damage 66.54 -> 0 / Buff duration 5s -> 8s / Range 13m -> self / Energy cost 4 -> 10
      Doesn't consume Q-spell arrows

      New - TRIPLE SHOT
      Shoot 3 arrows in rapid succession to a target, each of them dealing 24 physical damage.
      Cooldown : 6s / Range : 13m / Energy cost : 6 / Cast time : instant
      Q-spell arrow consumption : 1 per tick

      New - QUICK SIDESTEP
      Dash to a targeted area. Hitting a target with normal attack or bow spell within 5s deals an aditional 70 physical damage and refund 5s of quick sidestep cooldown.
      Cooldown : 12s / Range : 5m / Energy cost : 10 / Cast time : instant
      Doesn't consume Q-spell arrows

      E-SPELL SLOT

      NORMAL BOW -> No changes

      Changes - LONGBOW
      Slow 20% -> 0%
      Q-spell arrow consumption : 1 per tick

      Changes - WARBOW
      Q-spell arrow consumption : 1 per cast

      WHISPERING BOW -> No changes

      Changes - WAILING BOW
      Q-spell arrow consumption : 1 per cast

      Changes - BOW OF BADON
      Q-spell arrow consumption : 1 per cast

      Changes - MISTPIERCER
      Q-spell arrow consumption : 1 per cast


      PASSIVES

      Changes - PIERCING ARROWS
      Target damage taken per stack 1.961% -> 2.5%

      New - LARGE QUIVER
      Your quiver can hold 6 frost / explosive / poisoned arrows instead of 5. Also casting a Q-spell slot will give you 6 arrows instead of 5.

      ENERGETIC -> No changes

      ATTACK SPEED -> No changes


      REMOVED SPELL AND PASSIVES

      FROST SHOT (reason : Disassociated the Slow attributes for FROST ARROW and the leap attributes for QUICK SIDESTEP)

      SLOW POISON (reason : Frost arrow exist and i needed a place to give a passive working around the Q-spell arrows)

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Owlsane ().

    • Btw this would be healtier gameplay than the ever heated combo Multishot Q+Frost shot W. Thoses change would basically emphasise you on using well your W mobility spells and not just caveman smash Q W's

      And of courses a real normal attack bread and butter Q spell for a weapon line with 2 normal attack based E which also gives you real utility options on W (not like the current version)
    • I can actually get on board with this however with the changes to balance correctly Speed shot should not be 8 seconds, its just too long of a mobility. With the change, Whispering and Normal Bow E would need to be re-worked to do something different. Just too much stacking the current way with the proposed changes

      The problem with it currently is the stacking (current gameplay). Stacking W and E. (normal bow)

      Also they would need to make the quiver / any buffs be removed upon changing cluster or exiting dungeon.
    • This is well thought out. Consistent/clean logic, leans on a unique mechanic bows already have to create more diversity, and it's not just an obvious way to buff your favorite weapon.

      I will say that frost arrows might be OP. Frost staff can "infinite" slow with its Q because it has a cast time. With this spell, bows could keep a slow on forever, with an instant cast spell and very quick attacks. This would probably create a new super-kite build, but I think this is more of a balancing detail. The core idea is solid.
    • Rainphase wrote:

      I can actually get on board with this however with the changes to balance correctly Speed shot should not be 8 seconds, its just too long of a mobility. With the change, Whispering and Normal Bow E would need to be re-worked to do something different. Just too much stacking the current way with the proposed changes

      The problem with it currently is the stacking (current gameplay). Stacking W and E. (normal bow)

      Also they would need to make the quiver / any buffs be removed upon changing cluster or exiting dungeon.
      Well the other option would be to have the 5s buff timer but instead of 15s cd it would be 10s cd.

      I honnestly think the mobility on 8s buff timer wasn't that huge of a problem (since it's only 20% MS), you're just more hurt by purges than instant blinks or dashes. You cover way less ground than adrenaline boost, you cover around the same amount of ground as most of dashes in the game but it's not instant.

      Let's not forget that the fact you normal attack you can easily lose half of the value depending if you full dps or not.

      Maybe attack speed values for the duration is too much... i can agree on that. The attack speed value can be halved and i honnestly don't think normal bow would use that spell (instead i would use quick sidestep).

      FriendlyFire wrote:

      This is well thought out. Consistent/clean logic, leans on a unique mechanic bows already have to create more diversity, and it's not just an obvious way to buff your favorite weapon.

      I will say that frost arrows might be OP. Frost staff can "infinite" slow with its Q because it has a cast time. With this spell, bows could keep a slow on forever, with an instant cast spell and very quick attacks. This would probably create a new super-kite build, but I think this is more of a balancing detail. The core idea is solid.
      2 different values can be used for normal attack and bow spells. Might be a good alternative to balance infinite slow

      Gabumon wrote:

      Since I suggested something like this before too I have to absolutely agree.
      I wasn't sure if it was you or somebody else when we talked about that stuff. I wanted to mention you
      and now since my boi the beggar king to confirm stuff it will be possible.

      Also i put back the pic (idk why it broke)
    • Well my theory on it is, A lot of weapons have 0 or super limited mobility.. Bow does have some sort of mobility (more weapons need some type of mobility even if its a small passive etc..) But anyway.. If the speed boost from speed shot Timer / Speed / Duration etc allowed you to gain the same amount of "ground" as frost shot or the new evade shot you are proposing that would be perfectly fine for me. I just think that 8s would gain more ground and give more kiting ability which people would favor more because of the kite.

      Also potentially the Knockback Q.. should probably be switched to interrupt only instead of knockback which is an interrupt. But moving it to a W slot is sorta a nerf in a way which is fine but don't forget it will need some damage and a cooldown reflected of other W spells.. You didn't post that in your initial so im not sure which direction you were headed with it.
    • Rainphase wrote:

      Well my theory on it is, A lot of weapons have 0 or super limited mobility.. Bow does have some sort of mobility (more weapons need some type of mobility even if its a small passive etc..) But anyway.. If the speed boost from speed shot Timer / Speed / Duration etc allowed you to gain the same amount of "ground" as frost shot or the new evade shot you are proposing that would be perfectly fine for me. I just think that 8s would gain more ground and give more kiting ability which people would favor more because of the kite.

      Also potentially the Knockback Q.. should probably be switched to interrupt only instead of knockback which is an interrupt. But moving it to a W slot is sorta a nerf in a way which is fine but don't forget it will need some damage and a cooldown reflected of other W spells.. You didn't post that in your initial so im not sure which direction you were headed with it.
      If you want a scale on how much you gain ground, it's 8.8m for the whole buff duration for a 15s cd spell. Frost shot is 13m for 15s cd. Quick sidestep with cd refund is 5m for a 7s cd which is on average 10.7m in a span of 15s. While you lose some mobility compared to frost shot, the freedom of how you want to space your target is much more reliable and gives you way more options during the fight.

      About knockback shot, as mentionned on the main post, it got a damage nerf (the reason being to be in line with the dps from w spell slot) the rest stays the same... cd, mana cost, range, etc. My direction to this spell keeps the knockback the way it is. It's an alternative of spacing without dashes or MS buffs, good vs melee without being overtuned (since the reason it's broken currently is simply because of the combo with frost shot). Vs cast time weapon it's an option to deny dps. I'm not really a fan of removing the knockback for an interrupt. It would basically be back to slumber the same way as armstring on sword line.
    • Now that you broke down the Meter range, Id agree with it, It makes more sense than imagining what the distance would be in my head.

      The Knockback shot, I think the damage should stay but the cooldown be increased (to compensate) This way you have a knockback / interrupt by nature.. A Speed shot, a Movement ability. A Damage and a root. Which would be more balanced than most of weapons W skill lines.

      Would make Bow a real utility for situations, Only thing that would need to be watched is its interaction as Bows should have a Hard counter and a few soft counters, That way its not 1 weapon with every skill combo that can essentially beat every weapon in every situation.. If you know what I mean.
    • Rainphase wrote:

      Now that you broke down the Meter range, Id agree with it, It makes more sense than imagining what the distance would be in my head.

      The Knockback shot, I think the damage should stay but the cooldown be increased (to compensate) This way you have a knockback / interrupt by nature.. A Speed shot, a Movement ability. A Damage and a root. Which would be more balanced than most of weapons W skill lines.

      Would make Bow a real utility for situations, Only thing that would need to be watched is its interaction as Bows should have a Hard counter and a few soft counters, That way its not 1 weapon with every skill combo that can essentially beat every weapon in every situation.. If you know what I mean.
      The whole point making multishot almost untouched is to allow an option of aoe spamable W. In order to not make bow line an only normal-attack based weapon i was kinda forced to let some spells with low cd.

      Are you talking about spears rn? They basically have an answer to everything and i'm completely honnestly. I do think bow will have a consistent counter which is any ranged weapon being able to outdps @even or more range (frost for example)
    • UNFM wrote:

      respect for ur work but it have 0 chance to work. stand time in albion, is thing what kills the kiting builds.
      That's one component a needed changes and i have faith and hopes SBI will make standtime on normal attacks actually smother. Of course if standtime on normal attack has to be changed it would be for all weapons and not a few select ones.
    • Awesome idea, to be honest this gives me a Ragnarok online vibe, and in the same spirit i would like to add the skill "Create Arrow", meaning the arrow will now be a physical item, and can be stacked up to 999 same as normal, also it will work with the quiver, which i would change to magic quiver, that will give the mentioned effect plus making arrows lighter by percentage, with the create skill if the proper material its on inventory the specific arrow will be created (in batch determined by balance on tiers, maybe higher tier gives more arrow), as for the material, since we have a lot of materials, but not "elemental" themed, then i would suggest artifacts, also dependant on tiers, arrow can have tiers also, but any bow can use any arrows.
      Hence more flecibility will be made, like T4 bow with T8 arrow will make the maximum damage for t4, and T8 bow with t4 arrow will have minimum damage. Something like that.

      I imagine this will be hell to program, but will give a better dynamic and a rightful power up to bows, they will be powerful but its earned as there is alot of prep, grinding and farming behind it.