Normal Bow change suggestion

    • Normal Bow change suggestion

      Currently normal bow is on an unbalanced state.

      The E provides an attack speed and normal attack boost each hit you do and at max stack you have also a pierce element, in addition to this is you can have full uptime on this spell (basically launching the spell and wait a few seconds, hit all 17 stack, use E and voila you have 18 shot with full stack on). The only true weakness of this spell is purge which destroy completely normal bow. Perfectly used and a normal bow is useless for 20s.

      So we are on a situation that either normal bow is too good or useless without any middle ground watsoever. This topic is here to suggest a change that :

      - Maintain the core concept of damage build up the more you hit but balancing it to maintain an healthy DPS for both the user and the target
      - Removing that infinite full uptime with the full stack trick (adding time period when you have high pressure and time period when you don't)
      - Partially negating the purge power on the spell to still be an option without rendering normal bow completely useless
      - Giving an attack speed build option provided by gears and passive

      So here is my change suggestion :

      Current E spell

      You get 18 enchanted arrows. Every normal attack with an enchanted arrow will increase your normal attack damage by 35% and attack speed by 15% (Stack up to 6 times). On max stack, your arrows will also reduce the enemy's resistances by [-0.15] for 3s.

      Energy cost : 19
      Cast time : instant
      Range : self
      Cooldown : 20s


      Suggested E spell

      When activated, increasing your normal attack damage by 150%. Your quiver will also enchant your arrows, increasing your normal attack damage by 30% each time you hit a target (Stack up to 5 times for a total of normal attack damage of 300%). On max stacks, your normal attacks will also ignore a part of the target's resistances.

      Cloth armor : 15% resistances
      Leather armor : 30% resistances
      Plate armor : 40% resistances

      Energy cost : 5 + 3 per second
      Cast time : toggle
      Range : self
      Cooldown : 5s



      Display Spoiler

      Old suggested E spell

      When activated, increasing your normal attack damage by 180% for up to 10s. Your quiver will also enchant your arrows, increasing your normal attack damage by 30% each time you hit a target (Stack up to 4 times for a total of normal attack damage of 300%). On max stacks, your arrows will also reduce the the ennemy's resistances by [-0.15] for 3s.

      Energy cost : 19
      Cast time : toggle
      Range : self
      Cooldown : 10s


      So i've been inspired of the recent whispering bow change with how they manage to deal with the purge situation. By making the spell a toggle you have a base bonus that is unpurgeable...that's a way to not render normal bow useless. However you can purge his stacks limiting his power. It will take around 4s to get fully stacked and you have 6s windup time at full power but well timed purging shield or retaliate for example can almost completely mess his windup time at full power. However, you can untoggle your spell to get your cd faster and during your downtime try to kite him, temporise the fight and get back your windup time faster.

      As you can see you change a bow completely telegraphed that was either a free win against if you have a purge and a free lose if you don't have a purge into a spell that has more playmaking options, gives mindgames for both the bow user and the target and a more healthy damage output by removing the attack speed steroids (now if you want to go full ak-47, you will build attacks speed at the risk to get purged all your buffs...pure bonus attack bonus vs attack speed buffs)

      The post was edited 7 times, last by Owlsane ().

    • Owlsane i find the current normal bow being hard countered by purge and semi countered by reflect like you said

      This makes build that dont have an answer to bow have to run away to reset the stacks. this makes hit and run tactics somewhat ok ish against regular bows at the moment

      while i agree that making it a base increase in damage so that purge is not as hard hitting while sacrificing attack speed to do so is a good balance

      but you accidentally increased the damage celling for bows as an side effect

      as you know the only limiting factor for bow currently is attack speed as the max attack speed cap is 120% but the current e fills up 90% already
      this makes the attack speed passive on bow lose 5% effectiveness and the use of hunter jacket not viable

      but i am sure you know with this change if you would go full damage while sacrificing defenses 300% base damage with up to 95% attack speed buff from passive and hunter jacket would make them melt even faster

      which i think is a semi decent tradeoff but needs some fine tune if the damage numbers get too high

      i like regular bows as the no1 ranged single target constant dps in the game
      and bolt casters as the no 1 burst single target dps in the game
      and i like to keep it that way

      but whispering bow also need a relook cause this with this change the bow is almost similar to whispering bow and i would like each of the bow and whispering to have their own unique identity
      Check out My new Albion Online Expansion idea 4 thread:
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/143592-Albion-Online-Expansion-Idea-4/

    • Old normal bow
      - 210% base normal attack increase
      - You would get 2.47 AS without any other spell and passive
      - Defensive option on armor (Useless to take hunter jacket)
      - Machine turret

      New normal bow
      -300% base normal attack increase
      - No attack speed steroid so that's 1.3 AS. You would go 2.54 AS with hunter jacket and weapon passive.
      - Defensive option on armor (Unless you want to increase even more your damage at the risk to being purged a 30s cd)
      - Not that much of an machine turret unless you go hunter jacket + AS on weapon

      I see your point. Ima look into it.

    • This is my speech to response of NORMAL bow.
      It is not an artifact nor an ava weapon
      It is overpowered and only those invested in keeping it that way are bow users.
      The range is ridiculous for the auto the ramp up of damage is ridiculous.

      Basically I feel shit on for spending so much time in game for broken meta shit to come about so often in the game.
      I consider myself in the 1% of people that have spent the time I have since beta 1.
      If I am saying something then something is very wrong with the game.
      Every Normal weapon should have the ability do do what bow does that way we can have others feel how shitty this is to the game and players.
      You should never need a purge for a normal weapon so the person stating the changes here obviously is bow invested fix your shitty code SBI!
      Regards,

      G.G.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ISTILLLOVEU ().

    • I don't get you. Is it critism towards my suggestion?

      I was a main bow user for 1 year and a half and stopped playing it like a year ago because how SBI changed stuff on bow when it wasn't necessary or did it wrongly completely messing up the bow line. Now i'm a main crossbow user and it fufill way better the playstyle that bow should have.

      The current state of normal bow is unbalanced and nobody can deny it, too much impactfull without a purge and a simple purge can just destroy this weapon like curse are destroyed by guardian helmet.

      If you have any criticism against my suggestion feel free to speak, i may be bias towards bow but nobody can deny that my goal is to make this E healthy for both the user and the target.

    • Everything in the game has a counter, bow is no exception, if you purge or debuff them they can't do that much damage, no issue really. You are a either a do or die class. If you reduce or change the E of normal bow you will have to substantially increase the other skills and auto attack.
      [i][u][b]"Best not type too much I may get in trouble"[/b][/u][/i]

    • Zoream wrote:

      Everything in the game has a counter, bow is no exception, if you purge or debuff them they can't do that much damage, no issue really. You are a either a do or die class. If you reduce or change the E of normal bow you will have to substantially increase the other skills and auto attack.
      I disagree with your statement.

      Frost/fire doesn't get their DPS completely nullified by purge because the main source of damage comes from the Q spell. It just nullifies their cast time but in the end they still can do reliable damage and they still has either a utility E or a big damage E. Silence is their biggest counter but it's rarely used atm or it has a low duration so you are not bothered by that.

      In the case of melees the main source of damage most of the time comes from their E. Most of the time it's a nuke damage and not a sustain dps that builds up overtime. In this situation the best counter to melee doesn't make them useless either.

      Auto based bow has to rely on their E for the main source of damage. Bow Q spell has too much CD or very low DPS compared to other ranged weapons. You can't rely on it...you better use something else if you rely on Q spell as a main source of damage.

      When your E goes from 220 damage on 2.47 AS vs cloth armor to 57 damage on 1.3 AS because of a purge that is absolutely NOT OK. Exept 1h curse vs guardiant helmet , not a single weapon get destroyed like that.

      There is no fun using normal bow if you get purged everytime you use your E and there is no fun playing against normal bow if you don't have a purge. Both situation is unhealthy, you get a win/lose condition depending of one cc and there is absolutely no middle ground whatsoever. Telling this situation is fine is being a complete dishonnest person.

    • Owlsane wrote:

      Zoream wrote:

      Everything in the game has a counter, bow is no exception, if you purge or debuff them they can't do that much damage, no issue really. You are a either a do or die class. If you reduce or change the E of normal bow you will have to substantially increase the other skills and auto attack.
      I disagree with your statement.
      Frost/fire doesn't get their DPS completely nullified by purge because the main source of damage comes from the Q spell. It just nullifies their cast time but in the end they still can do reliable damage and they still has either a utility E or a big damage E. Silence is their biggest counter but it's rarely used atm or it has a low duration so you are not bothered by that.

      In the case of melees the main source of damage most of the time comes from their E. Most of the time it's a nuke damage and not a sustain dps that builds up overtime. In this situation the best counter to melee doesn't make them useless either.

      Auto based bow has to rely on their E for the main source of damage. Bow Q spell has too much CD or very low DPS compared to other ranged weapons. You can't rely on it...you better use something else if you rely on Q spell as a main source of damage.

      When your E goes from 220 damage on 2.47 AS vs cloth armor to 57 damage on 1.3 AS because of a purge that is absolutely NOT OK. Exept 1h curse vs guardiant helmet , not a single weapon get destroyed like that.

      There is no fun using normal bow if you get purged everytime you use your E and there is no fun playing against normal bow if you don't have a purge. Both situation is unhealthy, you get a win/lose condition depending of one cc and there is absolutely no middle ground whatsoever. Telling this situation is fine is being a complete dishonnest person.
      Have no idea if you didn't read or if you didn't understand. I'm saying there isn't much wrong with bow, if they do change the e they will have to buff other abilities including the auto attack damage.
      [i][u][b]"Best not type too much I may get in trouble"[/b][/u][/i]

    • Owlsane wrote:

      PaladinJavier wrote:

      Nerfing 10% of damage and kite abilities longer cooldown and Will be ok. Specially normal bow.
      Doesn't solve the purge situation tho
      If it's no longer a purge target it's then a reskinned whispering? No kappa - while I do like Owl's revamp threads there needs to be some uniqueness to the bows - if whispering/normal bow both become not buff based...ehh IDK.

      Changes to bow might be necessary but I wouldn't abandon the buff aspect.

    • Zoream wrote:

      Owlsane wrote:

      Zoream wrote:

      Everything in the game has a counter, bow is no exception, if you purge or debuff them they can't do that much damage, no issue really. You are a either a do or die class. If you reduce or change the E of normal bow you will have to substantially increase the other skills and auto attack.
      I disagree with your statement.Frost/fire doesn't get their DPS completely nullified by purge because the main source of damage comes from the Q spell. It just nullifies their cast time but in the end they still can do reliable damage and they still has either a utility E or a big damage E. Silence is their biggest counter but it's rarely used atm or it has a low duration so you are not bothered by that.

      In the case of melees the main source of damage most of the time comes from their E. Most of the time it's a nuke damage and not a sustain dps that builds up overtime. In this situation the best counter to melee doesn't make them useless either.

      Auto based bow has to rely on their E for the main source of damage. Bow Q spell has too much CD or very low DPS compared to other ranged weapons. You can't rely on it...you better use something else if you rely on Q spell as a main source of damage.

      When your E goes from 220 damage on 2.47 AS vs cloth armor to 57 damage on 1.3 AS because of a purge that is absolutely NOT OK. Exept 1h curse vs guardiant helmet , not a single weapon get destroyed like that.

      There is no fun using normal bow if you get purged everytime you use your E and there is no fun playing against normal bow if you don't have a purge. Both situation is unhealthy, you get a win/lose condition depending of one cc and there is absolutely no middle ground whatsoever. Telling this situation is fine is being a complete dishonnest person.
      Have no idea if you didn't read or if you didn't understand. I'm saying there isn't much wrong with bow, if they do change the e they will have to buff other abilities including the auto attack damage.
      Let's say half understood... i quickly read the second statement after being tilted by the "if you purge or debuff them they can't do that much damage, no issue really"

      Maybe the auto-attack damage doesn't need a buff but one thing for sure it's needed to look into and especially for bows are standtime on auto-attack. It's one of the main reason you won't see auto-builds being consistently viable unless overtuned spell like normal bow. Some W's need a rework (example speed shot), We need an auto-based Q spell (for example swapping explosive shot and multishot), etc,etc...

      The bow suggestion is here in the situation of if this is the only thing to change, otherwise if multiple things are changed, obviously this suggestion needs to tone down some stats.

      MEATCUP wrote:

      If it's no longer a purge target it's then a reskinned whispering? No kappa - while I do like Owl's revamp threads there needs to be some uniqueness to the bows - if whispering/normal bow both become not buff based...ehh IDK.
      Changes to bow might be necessary but I wouldn't abandon the buff aspect.
      Well the suggestion still has some buff aspect but one part is unpurgeable in order to diminish the purge power on this bow.

      Honnestly whispering has so much potential as an AOE auto-attack weapon (i've suggested this multiple times) and i know it's completely doable to do. It would make clear distinction between normal and wispering bow and completely fits the theme.

    • Owlsane wrote:

      Zoream wrote:

      Owlsane wrote:

      Zoream wrote:

      Everything in the game has a counter, bow is no exception, if you purge or debuff them they can't do that much damage, no issue really. You are a either a do or die class. If you reduce or change the E of normal bow you will have to substantially increase the other skills and auto attack.
      I disagree with your statement.Frost/fire doesn't get their DPS completely nullified by purge because the main source of damage comes from the Q spell. It just nullifies their cast time but in the end they still can do reliable damage and they still has either a utility E or a big damage E. Silence is their biggest counter but it's rarely used atm or it has a low duration so you are not bothered by that.
      In the case of melees the main source of damage most of the time comes from their E. Most of the time it's a nuke damage and not a sustain dps that builds up overtime. In this situation the best counter to melee doesn't make them useless either.

      Auto based bow has to rely on their E for the main source of damage. Bow Q spell has too much CD or very low DPS compared to other ranged weapons. You can't rely on it...you better use something else if you rely on Q spell as a main source of damage.

      When your E goes from 220 damage on 2.47 AS vs cloth armor to 57 damage on 1.3 AS because of a purge that is absolutely NOT OK. Exept 1h curse vs guardiant helmet , not a single weapon get destroyed like that.

      There is no fun using normal bow if you get purged everytime you use your E and there is no fun playing against normal bow if you don't have a purge. Both situation is unhealthy, you get a win/lose condition depending of one cc and there is absolutely no middle ground whatsoever. Telling this situation is fine is being a complete dishonnest person.
      Have no idea if you didn't read or if you didn't understand. I'm saying there isn't much wrong with bow, if they do change the e they will have to buff other abilities including the auto attack damage.
      Let's say half understood... i quickly read the second statement after being tilted by the "if you purge or debuff them they can't do that much damage, no issue really"
      Maybe the auto-attack damage doesn't need a buff but one thing for sure it's needed to look into and especially for bows are standtime on auto-attack. It's one of the main reason you won't see auto-builds being consistently viable unless overtuned spell like normal bow. Some W's need a rework (example speed shot), We need an auto-based Q spell (for example swapping explosive shot and multishot), etc,etc...

      The bow suggestion is here in the situation of if this is the only thing to change, otherwise if multiple things are changed, obviously this suggestion needs to tone down some stats.

      MEATCUP wrote:

      If it's no longer a purge target it's then a reskinned whispering? No kappa - while I do like Owl's revamp threads there needs to be some uniqueness to the bows - if whispering/normal bow both become not buff based...ehh IDK.
      Changes to bow might be necessary but I wouldn't abandon the buff aspect.
      Well the suggestion still has some buff aspect but one part is unpurgeable in order to diminish the purge power on this bow.
      Honnestly whispering has so much potential as an AOE auto-attack weapon (i've suggested this multiple times) and i know it's completely doable to do. It would make clear distinction between normal and wispering bow and completely fits the theme.
      Yes whispering should do haunting damage to nearby targets up to x amount of people.
      [i][u][b]"Best not type too much I may get in trouble"[/b][/u][/i]

    • i always have this image in my mind that whispering bow and regular bow are the premier ranged auto attack range.

      whispering should be like this super long range screen wide 25+ range auto attacker

      and bow should be like this highest physical dps. which left unchecked can wreck havoc on any single target

      after the previous balance changes i like where whispering's place is at at the moment

      but bows suffer too heavily from purge.as a all or nothing weapon

      what we should do is keep the identity of each weapon as it is but reduce the effect of purge and how devastating it is

      like how whispering is immune to purge but takes more damage as a result. reinforcing it as a super long range auto attack weapon
      Check out My new Albion Online Expansion idea 4 thread:
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/143592-Albion-Online-Expansion-Idea-4/

    • Not even like that. I though more of an aoe line auto-attack. See the link below :
      Wispering bow E - Rework Suggestion

      Also i put here a possible variant for normal bow E spell :


      Variant of suggested E spell

      When activated, increasing your normal attack damage by 150%. Your quiver will also enchant your arrows, increasing your normal attack damage by 30% each time you hit a target (Stack up to 5 times for a total of normal attack damage of 300%). On max stacks, your normal attacks will also ignore a part of the target's resistances.

      Cloth armor : 15% resistances
      Leather armor : 30% resistances
      Plate armor : 40% resistances

      Energy cost : 5 + 3 per second
      Cast time : toggle
      Range : self
      Cooldown : 5s


      - This is a variant allows permanent activation but as a side effect it consumes mana each second, forcing you to either consistently dps a target using the energetic passive in order to diminish the consumption, stop completely the toggle if you don't dps or using mana regeneration gears.
      - Increased the amount of normal attack needed to be full stack by 1 which increase also the time needed to be full stack.
      - Increased the bonus gap between 0 and 5 stack
      - Instead of having a pierce effect that others players and your bow spell benefits from, it only benefits to your auto-attacks and this pierce is based on the target armor type. It would be less impactful dps on clothies while being an interesting option against plate. Again this only applies to auto-attack and nothing else benefits from it.

      Here some numbers to visualise (taking from t8 flat items and around 700/700 specs):

      Normal attack damage : 85
      Bonus attack from gears and food : 70%
      Clothie armor : 150 (60% damage reduction)
      Leather armor : 220 (68% damage reduction)
      Plate armor : 290 (74% damage reduction)
      Old pierce : 50

      Comparison between
      suggestion n°1 &
      suggestion n°2      		Theorethical AA 300% +
      bonus attack without pierce
      (578 dmg)      		Suggestion n°1
      Flat pierce calculation      		Suggestion n°1
      AA 300% +
      bonus attack +
      old pierce
      (578 dmg)      		Suggestion n°2
      % base pierce calculation      		Suggestion n°2
      AA 30% +
      bonus attack +
      new pierce
      (578dmg)
      Clothie231150-50 = 100
      50% damage mitigation      		289150-15% = 127.5
      56% damage mitigation      		254
      Leather185220-50 = 170
      63% damage mitigation      		214220-30% = 154
      61% damage mitigation      		225
      Plate150290-50 = 240
      71% damage mitigation      		168290-40% = 174
      64% damage mitigation      		208

      The suggestion n°2 would deal 12% less dps on clothies, 5% more dps on leather and 19% more dps on plate in comparison to the suggestion n°1.

      Which one of these 2 suggestion seems the most reasonable, balanced and healthy overall?

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Owlsane ().