Spear's Inner focus NEEDS A REWORK

    • Spear's Inner focus NEEDS A REWORK

      All the other weapons have INSTANT mobility ability on W. The speed gained is diminished heavily by the channel time, only giving you a 3m advantage compared to somebody running without speed buffs. What's the point of extra damage and CC when your enemy won't even be there after your channel is done for the most part of the buff?

      Please, spears need a VERSATILE W like most weapons. Right now they are very situational, even with the addition of the new W, which is useless if you're trying to escape.

      Consider adding a new Q with a unique take on it, like how daggers get that mobility/AOE damage, or how swords get the AOE damage and mobility/attack speed on hit. Or remove the slow on the Q1 and add speed/damage.

      Honestly, you're working on the weapon in all the wrong places, nobody will use this garbage compared to other superior melee weapons.
    • DirtySentinel wrote:

      What do you mean by versatile W? I think most Ws on the different skill lines are situational, spears Ws moreso than others.

      i agree with the subject though. Spears need mobility badly, it’s one of the major factors hurting them so much, and inner focus being in the terrible place that it is doesn’t help.
      I think he means versatile as in Chain slash, Parry or Iron will.
      Those skills either have a fuckton of utility, or synergise directly with the base weapon kit and can be used comfortably in almost any situation or matchup.
    • Hattenhair wrote:

      DirtySentinel wrote:

      What do you mean by versatile W? I think most Ws on the different skill lines are situational, spears Ws moreso than others.

      i agree with the subject though. Spears need mobility badly, it’s one of the major factors hurting them so much, and inner focus being in the terrible place that it is doesn’t help.
      I think he means versatile as in Chain slash, Parry or Iron will.Those skills either have a fuckton of utility, or synergise directly with the base weapon kit and can be used comfortably in almost any situation or matchup.
      Ah well in that case I think I can comfortably say I’d use impaler in most matchups since it’s damage and a slow at low cd. Deflecting is a close second but very easy to avoid.
    • Syther wrote:

      All the other weapons have INSTANT mobility ability on W. The speed gained is diminished heavily by the channel time, only giving you a 3m advantage compared to somebody running without speed buffs. What's the point of extra damage and CC when your enemy won't even be there after your channel is done for the most part of the buff?

      Please, spears need a VERSATILE W like most weapons. Right now they are very situational, even with the addition of the new W, which is useless if you're trying to escape.

      Consider adding a new Q with a unique take on it, like how daggers get that mobility/AOE damage, or how swords get the AOE damage and mobility/attack speed on hit. Or remove the slow on the Q1 and add speed/damage.

      Honestly, you're working on the weapon in all the wrong places, nobody will use this garbage compared to other superior melee weapons.
      I main the Heron Spear, I'm at 100 spec on all 7 spears (320 bonus IP), and I'm here to answer your concern.

      First thing first, you calculated the spell wrong as Inner Focus give you 6.6m advantage per buff, not 3m. with a 15 sec cool down. That's equivalent to 0.8 of a normal boots (300% move speed advantage). I've included the table below for you to see how fast that is relative to some others spells.

      Secondly, from your concern, i infer that you are using Inner Focus wrongly. If you just channel Inner Focus then start running for the 6.6m advantage, that's indeed the wrong way to use the spell. Inner focus gives you 3 sources of mobility:
      1. The 50% move speed buff for 6 seconds. (which everyone is aware of)
      2. The CC buff which increase the CC on some of the spears' E which lengthen the time you lock someone before running (pike, trinity, heron spear). (which most people are aware of)
      3. The ability to convert your standing time to moving time (which most newbie spear users don't realize)
      Normally you will want to channel focus during times that you have to stand still anw. Some examples include: being stopped by wind wall or fire wall (when you are chasing someone), when you are rooted and have to stand still anw (when you are being chased), before a fight break out (when both you and your enemies are just stand there examine each others). When you are stopped by sth else (e.g: by traps in corrupted dungeons)

      Because you have to stand still anw, if you use inner focus during these times, the spell give you: 300% speed buff every 15 sec. If you can use it this way consecutively, it gives you 2 times the speed advantage from a normal boots (imagine popping your shoes 3 times while your enemies only have 1, that's how fast you are in these scenarios)

      Spears also have a 20% permanent slows if you can stick to your enemy's butt when chasing them. And because I main the heron spear inner focus also give me the buff to my E's stun (which can also mean mobility), and I have like ~ 20 to 1 kill / death ratio in CD not because I win that much but because no one can catch me there. I'm one of those players that get chased around in CDs while constantly receiving insults from the one chasing me before I turned around and kill them (because 99% of the people chasing such build are inexperienced, seasoned players just get out right away after inspecting).

      Anyways, the point is that you've criminally underestimated the mobility Inner Focus can provide. Try using it like i mentioned above for a while and you'll start hoping it won't get another nerf instead of complaining about it.


      THE MOVE SPEED TABLE.
      Note that "advantage per use" is not the range of some jumping ability but the extra space created between you and a walking target (5.5 m/s)
      skillweaponadvantage per usecooldown30sboot equivalent
      andrenaline boostaxe13.82020.61.25
      deadly swipedagger2.8420.61.25
      slowing chargehammer8.51517.01.03
      frost novafrost staff11.02016.51.00
      stun runstaff8.31516.51.00
      crescent slashstaff - double bladed8.31516.51.00
      frost shotbow8.01516.00.97
      tacklehammer - great hammer7.31514.50.88
      spinning bladessword - dual swords9.02013.50.82
      motivating cleansearcane6.61513.20.80
      inner focusspear6.61513.20.80
      time corridorarcane - occult staff12.03012.00.73
      dodgeassassin shoes9.52511.40.69
      reckless chargespear - 1 hand spear7.32011.00.66
      cartwheelstaff2.589.40.57
      snare chargemace4.5159.00.55
      razor cutaxe - bear paw9.0309.00.55
      deep leapmace - 1 hand7.0258.40.51
      breakthroughspear - daybreaker7.0258.40.51
      spectral tridentspear - trinity spear7.0307.00.42

      The post was edited 1 time, last by SpicyPepper ().

    • SpicyPepper wrote:

      THE MOVE SPEED TABLE.
      Note that "advantage per use" is not the range of some jumping ability but the extra space created between you and a walking target (5.5 m/s)
      skillweaponadvantage per usecooldown30sboot equivalent
      andrenaline boostaxe13.82020.61.25
      deadly swipedagger2.8420.61.25
      slowing chargehammer8.51517.01.03
      frost novafrost staff11.02016.51.00
      stun runstaff8.31516.51.00
      crescent slashstaff - double bladed8.31516.51.00
      frost shotbow8.01516.00.97
      tacklehammer - great hammer7.31514.50.88
      spinning bladessword - dual swords9.02013.50.82
      motivating cleansearcane6.61513.20.80
      inner focusspear6.61513.20.80
      time corridorarcane - occult staff12.03012.00.73
      dodgeassassin shoes9.52511.40.69
      reckless chargespear - 1 hand spear7.32011.00.66
      cartwheelstaff2.589.40.57
      snare chargemace4.5159.00.55
      razor cutaxe - bear paw9.0309.00.55
      deep leapmace - 1 hand7.0258.40.51
      breakthroughspear - daybreaker7.0258.40.51
      spectral tridentspear - trinity spear7.0307.00.42

      Damn, this is a nice table, I'm stealing it. :D
    • SpicyPepper wrote:

      Syther wrote:

      All the other weapons have INSTANT mobility ability on W. The speed gained is diminished heavily by the channel time, only giving you a 3m advantage compared to somebody running without speed buffs. What's the point of extra damage and CC when your enemy won't even be there after your channel is done for the most part of the buff?

      Please, spears need a VERSATILE W like most weapons. Right now they are very situational, even with the addition of the new W, which is useless if you're trying to escape.

      Consider adding a new Q with a unique take on it, like how daggers get that mobility/AOE damage, or how swords get the AOE damage and mobility/attack speed on hit. Or remove the slow on the Q1 and add speed/damage.

      Honestly, you're working on the weapon in all the wrong places, nobody will use this garbage compared to other superior melee weapons.
      I main the Heron Spear, I'm at 100 spec on all 7 spears (320 bonus IP), and I'm here to answer your concern.
      First thing first, you calculated the spell wrong as Inner Focus give you 6.6m advantage per buff, not 3m. with a 15 sec cool down. That's equivalent to 0.8 of a normal boots (300% move speed advantage). I've included the table below for you to see how fast that is relative to some others spells.

      Secondly, from your concern, i infer that you are using Inner Focus wrongly. If you just channel Inner Focus then start running for the 6.6m advantage, that's indeed the wrong way to use the spell. Inner focus gives you 3 sources of mobility:
      1. The 50% move speed buff for 6 seconds. (which everyone is aware of)
      2. The CC buff which increase the CC on some of the spears' E which lengthen the time you lock someone before running (pike, trinity, heron spear). (which most people are aware of)
      3. The ability to convert your standing time to moving time (which most newbie spear users don't realize)
      Normally you will want to channel focus during times that you have to stand still anw. Some examples include: being stopped by wind wall or fire wall (when you are chasing someone), when you are rooted and have to stand still anw (when you are being chased), before a fight break out (when both you and your enemies are just stand there examine each others). When you are stopped by sth else (e.g: by traps in corrupted dungeons)

      Because you have to stand still anw, if you use inner focus during these times, the spell give you: 300% speed buff every 15 sec. If you can use it this way consecutively, it gives you 2 times the speed advantage from a normal boots (imagine popping your shoes 3 times while your enemies only have 1, that's how fast you are in these scenarios)

      Spears also have a 20% permanent slows if you can stick to your enemy's butt when chasing them. And because I main the heron spear inner focus also give me the buff to my E's stun (which can also mean mobility), and I have like ~ 20 to 1 kill / death ratio in CD not because I win that much but because no one can catch me there. I'm one of those players that get chased around in CDs while constantly receiving insults from the one chasing me before I turned around and kill them (because 99% of the people chasing such build are inexperienced, seasoned players just get out right away after inspecting).

      Anyways, the point is that you've criminally underestimated the mobility Inner Focus can provide. Try using it like i mentioned above for a while and you'll start hoping it won't get another nerf instead of complaining about it.

      I think this is still a specific scenario where it works in controlled environments but not much else. I can see how you make really good use of it in the dungeon environment but it is still difficult to use effectively since you can still be interrupted, cced after you use it etc unless you hold it. And if you are holding it while waiting for these key moments, you are not using an ability.

      Side-topic, but what do you use for the remaining components of your build with Heron in Corrupted?
    • SpicyPepper wrote:

      Inner Focus give you 6.6m advantage
      While true yes, I did the math and it seems that you will surpass them after 29.7m, you end up 49.5m from the start, and they at 42.9. Meaning that for ~30 meters of the ~50m, you're just catching up, (i.e 5.4 seconds out of the 7.8 seconds you're JUST CATCHING UP)

      SpicyPepper wrote:

      Spears also have a 20% permanent slows
      It's 10% slow on the Q but still it's NOTHING to be amazed by, compared to other abilities like Sword Q (you can get 36% movements speed), especially that you can combine it with the Sword W slow ability Hamstring (38% slow for about 8 seconds depending on your IP).

      Edit : I realized you got that 20% from the Q + Passive, but im comparing W abilities to other W ones, you shouldn't add all this into account to make Inner Focus sound more viable, because the same can be applied to other weapons.


      SpicyPepper wrote:

      Normally you will want to channel focus during times that you have to stand still anw
      While yes this would be ideal in certain SITUATIONS, you can't design abilities based on scenarios, in fact, because of this, it only proves that it's not a versatile W because you'd have to use it in specific moments to make it useful.

      I appreciate the time and effort and insight to using it, it could definitely help out in many scenarios, but in my case how I think Inner Focus should be designed, is to allow you to activate it to chase or escape without the need to fall behind first and then spend the majority of the speed just catching up. I love the spear but I feel it's lacking a versatile W like Iron will, Parry Strike, frost shot, dash etc. that can be use both offensively and defensively for chasing/escaping/damage.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Syther ().

    • Syther wrote:

      It's 10% slow on the Q but still it's NOTHING to be amazed by, compared to other abilities like Sword Q (you can get 36% movements speed), especially that you can combine it with the Sword W slow ability Hamstring (38% slow for about 8 seconds depending on your IP).
      Edit : I realized you got that 20% from the Q + Passive, but im comparing W abilities to other W ones, you shouldn't add all this into account to make Inner Focus sound more viable, because the same can be applied to other weapons.
      I mentioned the slow because Inner Focus give CC increase, it does make a different when you chase someone because it make it easier to keep the permanent slow. As for Hamstring, if you use it, you won't have Iron Will, therefore you'll be slower. In spear case, you aren't really sacrificing anything for the slow.
      Also, just in the the specific case of fighting against sword, spears have another mobility spell - Cripple, which destroy also in a fight. It doesn't have to be a 1 vs 1. If you got ganked by a whole PT and they have swords or staves (which is very common because double bladed staff is conventionally weapon of choice for ganking). Cripple gives you enormous speed boost on top of CC, which is mobility.


      Syther wrote:

      While yes this would be ideal in certain SITUATIONS.

      I appreciate the time and effort and insight to using it, it could definitely help out in many scenarios, but in my case how I think Inner Focus should be designed, is to allow you to activate it to chase or escape without the need to fall behind first and then spend the majority of the speed just catching up. I love the spear but I feel it's lacking a versatile W like Iron will, Parry Strike, frost shot, dash etc. that can be use both offensively and defensively for chasing/escaping/damage.
      You can use inner focus both offensively and defensively like the examples i described in my original post. You can also just outright tanking the damage to channel the spells, you can also channel it when your chasers using boots to waste their entire boots, you can CC the people you are chasing then channel Inner Focus instead of standing there poking at their targets during the CC durations like most people do. You can use it in dungeons, open worlds, in arena, HGs, .. . in the same way because nothing environmentally specific affect the spell.

      It's not just "certain situations". Even when you only use them in these situations, you'll spam enough of Inner-Focus for the need of scholar sandals or else you'll run out of mana in a very short time. During times when I use Inner Focus, I find the spell on cool down very much more often than finding a chance to use it. You'll have to use the spell a lot before realizing when you should use it to be efficient. Noting that you don't have to pull the whole 10 stack channeling, sometimes it's better to only get as much stacks of it as you need before start running again.

      As I've said, if you activated inner focus to fall behind then catching up, then you've use it wrongly. Because you didn't mention which spear is your favorite i can't go in details, but with the Herons spear, I have zero problem chasing down and killing bloodletter with Wind Wall (which was a meta in CD back when guardian helmet was still healing %), that's how fast inner focus is. You will find it much harder to achieve the same feat with any of the swords (just a reference because you seem to love the 36% speed buff sword provide, not that i don't :D but it's not invincible).

      Also, 1 side note: Heron Spear is the fastest spear in most of the case, not the normal spear as many think it is. Its E is an very large aoe stun, which give you like 3 extra second of walking (~ 16m) even when you fight 1 vs X, comparing to the flimsy 7.3m advantage the 1 hand spear's E provides.
    • DirtySentinel wrote:

      Side-topic, but what do you use for the remaining components of your build with Heron in Corrupted?
      Heron spear + taproot, knight armor, any shoes and helmet you like, but scholar sandals is recommended as the Focus run gives you mana and an extra defensive against black hand's E and others CC weapons. Obviously, with demon cape. You'll lose a fight face to face against most match up, so you'll just run around for them to chase you, stun them and push to the mobs with wind wall, keep doing that then turn around to fight face to face when you have ~ 2 - 3 bars advantage or when they've used up many spells for nothing but keep chasing.

      I also use skinner cap for 2 reasons:

      1. The bear trap is useful for killing nature and Hallowfall, as there's just no way you gonna out damage them even when you have 2-3 bars of hp advantage. You don't need it for escaping, the traps is specifically for killing people you just can't kill fighting face to face. Save it and use it offensively.

      2. The stat on the hats aren't different between gathering hats and combat ones (they do on the chest piece, but not the hat and the shoes). Any of the gathering hats is extremely strong in CD and HG right now because you can't swap gears anymore. When you bring gathering hat, you are basically bringing a soldier helmet, a mercenary hood plus 1 extra head piece and swapping between the three. You will solf counter almost every single build in the corrupted dungeons.

      I'm quite sure pretty much everyone on the top of the ranking table realize how strong gathering hats is too, but they just don't want to swap the head piece because you do need spec for it, but not for the shoes. The head is the the main source of your mana. You can fight with a 8.3 weapon using t4 quarrier boot, but you can't do the same using t4 gathering head pieces as your entire mana pool will be gone after a few spells. As people enjoy PVP don't commonly do any gathering, they don't have the spec for the head piece. IMO, that's the only reason you only see gathering boots on the top of the infamy tables but no hat.


      Edit: extra note

      You can run the same build with hammers and staves. In fact, I also run the same set (skinner cap, knight armor, scholar sandals, demon cape) with others CC weapon too, they give the same effect. From my CD runs, i find the heron spear and tomb hammer are best for such style, quarterstaff is runner up as they are fast but doesn't have a range CC.

      It's a matter of choice between heron spear and tomb hammer, the first have much more damage (because of inner focus) while the later have much more CC.

      _ The Heron spear have so much more damage that if you change the offhand to crypt candle and boot to royal sandal + royal helmet (with any plate armor, soldier armor is not required), you can 1 hit any build using cloth or leather chest and not using taproot. By 1 hit i mean that you see your enemy at full HP, you inner focus up, land the stun, poke demon cape and his entire HP bar is gone. There's just nothing he can do because he's stunned, and he died even before the stun end. The reason i abandoned that build is because plate armor + taproot + sandwich was so popular (it still is)

      _ As for the tomb hammer, it have so much CC that sometimes you just burst out laughing while playing it because your target just can't move. With Tomb Hammer + skinner cap / fiend cowl, you can kill bear paw fame farmers like ~ 6-7 out of 10 times you meet em. Heron Spear doesn't have as much chasing capability as the Tomb Hammer, it's not even close.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by SpicyPepper: Extra note: ().