Disarray Changes for Season 10

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    • Disarray Changes for Season 10

      We have been observing the impact of Disarray in large scale battles and want to make some changes to improve the combat meta Season 10

      Current problems
      • The damage output in large scale is reduced so much, that the fights become heavily shifted towards sustain damage. Which makes it hard to punish enemies' over-extensions.
      • The strong healing output reduction shifts the meta more to self sustain and devalues the impact of healers
      • It creates strong incentives to split into multiple NAPs to circumvent the effects of Disarray
      To adress these problems, we will do Disarray changes in two steps:
      1. Flattening the Disarray Curve
        goes live with patch 2, before the season start
      2. Reworking Disarray mechanic
        this will be in a later patch during the season

      Flattening the Disarray Curve

      Before the start of the season we will flatten the Disarray curve and hardcap it at 30% (150 or more players)

      The intention of this change is to improve the combat meta in very large fights until we have a proper rework of the system implemented. Especially in fights with a Disarray of 30% or more the meta rewards sustain damage too much, which reduces counterplay options and is something we want to remove in the long run. That is why we hardcap it at 30% and flatten the Disarray ramp up curve a bit.

      Example Values:
      • 50 Players - Disarray Strength: 18%
      • 100 Players - Disarray Strength: 28%
      • 150 Players - Disarray Strength: 30% (hardcap)
      (In the image attached to this post you can find a full breakdown of the new Disarray values)


      Disarray Rework
      In the long run we want to rework how Disarray works to make large scale fights more enjoyable.

      After the rework, Disarray will no longer apply a straight debuff.
      Instead it will reduce the damage output whenever a target with lower Disarray is attacked. You can think of it like an additional Focus Fire Protection when smaller groups are attacked by bigger groups.
      The damage output is reduced depending on how much the Disarray difference between attacker and attacked is.

      Examples:
      • Attacker has a Disarray of 30; attacked target has a Disarray of 30: Damage output is not reduced
      • Attacker has a Disarray of 30; attacked target has a Disarray of 20: Damage output is reduced by 10%
      • Attacker has a Disarray of 30; attacked target has a Disarray of 35: Damage output is not reduced
      What is better with this approach:
      1. If two equally sized groups fight each other the combat meta is not influenced by Disarray at all.
      2. If similar sized groups fight each other, the Disarray effect is there, but the combat meta is still not too different than normal
      3. Healers will never get debuffed and will always have impact, even in big fights
      4. Bomb Squads become less effective, because the large group's healing output is not affected by Disarray, meaning they can better defend against bomb squads


      Overall this system seems to be the better solution to achieve the same goals the current Disarray. does. It will not completely eliminate NAPs, but will reduce their impact, while also making sure to have a better large scale combat meta.

      This full rework will not be ready for the start of Season 10, but we intend to get it live with a patch during Season 10.

      Please, let us know your thoughts on the intended Disarray Rework.

      Cheers,
      Retro
      Images
      • Disarray.PNG

        42.34 kB, 955×528, viewed 2,435 times

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Retroman ().

    • Off-top, but read and discuss it please.

      gmatagmis wrote:

      Currently all limits SBI has set, such a guild size limit, hideout per guild limit, territory number drain, and of course dissaray are easily passed with hideout access management.
      Any guild may have as many hideouts as they need anywhere, any power can make a pact of access to have full presence anywhere anytime.
      Making hideouts respawn an only guild option may make those limits work as intended.
      WTB skill
    • How is this going to effect large groups split into NAPS fighting against large groups under one banner? an example;

      Each side has 150 players.
      Side A splits into 3 NAP alliances of 50 players each
      Side B are all in one large alliance

      Under the new proposal, side A and B receive equal healing but side B gets its damaged to side A reduced. So how exactly is the new changes going to combat "strong incentives to split into multiple NAPs to circumvent the effects of Disarray"?
    • Odelll wrote:

      How is this going to effect large groups split into NAPS fighting against large groups under one banner? an example;

      Each side has 150 players.
      Side A splits into 3 NAP alliances of 50 players each
      Side B are all in one large alliance

      Under the new proposal, side A and B receive equal healing but side B gets its damaged to side A reduced. So how exactly is the new changes going to combat "strong incentives to split into multiple NAPs to circumvent the effects of Disarray"?
      Is friendly fire worth the trouble when you read that healers now doesn't get fucked by dissaray and now dissaray damage reduction value consider the ennemy disarray value?
    • I really like the idea of the Disarray rework!

      But: I think the rework and the flattening do not fit together.

      e.g. a fight 50 (18%) vs 100 (28%) the 50 take 10% less damage, but the 100 got the doubled amount of healers and healing is not affected by Disarray anymore. I would recommend to increase the Disarray and not flatten it.

      I hope you can understand my point of view and we will see what S10 brings!

      SBI keep going! You're doing a good job with your Updates!
    • Well I don't really understand what do you mean by 'healers will never get debuffed', but I don't think it's possible to rework heal debuff and I couldn't read anywhere we are switching back to dps/def debuff like it was originally (the only design that makes sense to me however abused by solo bombsquads).

      So i would like to understand how is the heal going to be debuffed after rework as we won't have two values like with dps.

      Another thing is as you are actually confirming what I've written in my last feedback post, this is not going to solve mega alliances problem. It will give little bit of advantage to the guilds that can punish for bad position but the ease how mega naps are created is coming from hideout accesses and quick regears.

      I still am pretty confident we shouldn't be allowing such flexible permission management and move to either full Public or full private (Ally only) access and then lower limits of hideouts. I really enjoyed the game when death meant regearing from the city, riding 7maps before rejoining the battle. now everyone regears in seconds one zone away and stay in queue for 5 minutes.

      Cluster queue would get better if we limited hideout access as it would make regearing more complicated and add more strategy aspect to the hideout system.

      I hope you have a good reason to ignore this request as community widely supports this.
    • I see you SBI are moving towards the possible solution.. relative debuff rather than absolute debuff.

      I think the debuff mechanic is ok but it will only counter abuse and bomb squads if it's applied in a relative manner.

      Like a 100 man zerg should have a certain damage reduction when hitting a member of a 50 man zerg, but having a much smaller reduction when fighting against a 200 man zerg.
      The damage reduction should depend on the size of the zergs that attacker and attacked belongs to.

      Relative, sure.. but it should be balanced to still give some kind of advantage to larger groups towards smaller group, because of course if you are more there must be a kind of advantage. Even though i think that being part of a larger zerg is already an advantage given the increased number of stuns/skills available
    • Instead of doubling down on a broken system why don’t you remove the system and re-evaluate the system altogether. You have made tons of changes to the game including reduced maximum damage buff and less max aoe escalation change. You need a control to compare to. Give it half a season with no debuff to re-evaluate what changes need to be made.

      I can only think of 1 version of disarray that actually had an impact on the number of players people brought to a fight. That was when damage taken was scaled up with disarray. The only problem with that version was that bombing was too effective. If you put in a minimum cluster size for the increased damage to take effect, you could have a possible solution.
    • Awesome changes but the truth is healing doesn't counter bomb squads,in fact nothing does, except for the absurdity of AoE escalation which still exists.

      I've said it before and I'll say it again

      The primary benefit of AoE damage should be in maximum effective damage done and not in kill pressure.

      If you want kills, get single target DPs. If you want better damage to weaken a zerg, bring AoE damage. Right now it doesn't make sense that AoE weapons are better at killing players than single target DPs.

      Until you remove AoE escalation, bomb squads are always gonna be abused and broken.
    • GluttonySDS wrote:

      Sounds good to me and a step in the right direction -- hopefully this doesnt lead to a return to the one shot meta where 1 or 2 players end the fight in 30 seconds.
      I think with the defensive debuff gone, and the already implemented changes to damage escalation and bonus damage buffs, we might be close to getting it right.
      Gotta see though. Once the changes are out, I will bring D&T out to Redtree and we can test it :)
      Gamer Dad. Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
    • Relative debuff looks good but then one shot attacks like Galatine or Weeping repeater will again be super strong even with the last AOE escalation debuff.

      Actually i wonder why the game needs AOE escalation. I mean, attacks that deal damage in an area of effect already have a lot more of potential damage than single targets so why should it be increased?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Guilefulwolf ().