Roads of Avalon Mapping & GPS Tools

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    • Grrd wrote:

      Everything in Mango is manually recorded. It is just a glorified spreadsheet with an efficient search tool. People are just envious because they're not smart enough to make something like it.

      You want access? Newby is recruiting
      I have no issue with the Mango guys, but this is empirically false.

      Edit: Also your "glorified spreadsheet with an efficient search tool", even if it was only manually recorded, is bannable per OP.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Reznok ().

    • Georg51 wrote:

      TSkebee wrote:

      Sorry, but I find the premise of this discussion a bit silly.
      Sure, knowing portal connections, capacity and expiry is an advantage over someone who does not know it, but it is a question of whether the game is playable if you want to live in the roads.

      If you are not allowed to cooperate with guild mates about mapping how to get to and from your HO in an efficient manner, that would mean that everybody have to roam around randomly for hours to find the right way. It is also a no-brainer, that the longer you spend roaming full loot PvP areas, the higher the risk of meeting someone who will want to fight you; so if it is a banable offense to take an efficient route found and communicated by your friends then there will be very little trade or 'foot traffic' between HOs in the roads and the royal cities.

      If you are not allowed to map your way to and from your guild HO in the roads, there is no point setting up an HO. Then the roads will only be for excursions limited by the time left on the random portals you go through - because you have to make sure you can go back the way you came so you do not get stuck in no-man's land.

      As has been said by several others, we are not talking about having motion detectors, tracking of individual players, or having private CCTV systems installed on the roads. We are talking about whether it is practically possible to have and run a guild HO in the roads.
      My guild has a perfectly working system to map the routes to and from our Hideout every few hours, without any sophisticated program or anything. Its actually not that hard or complicated either.
      So, there goes your entire argument.

      There goes the entire argument that it creates a competitive advantage to automate something instead of doing it manually. In a small guild it is easy to coordinate, in a large alliance like Newby with several 100s of players coordination is a lot more time complex.


      iRawn wrote:

      TSkebee wrote:

      Sorry, but I find the premise of this discussion a bit silly.
      Sure, knowing portal connections, capacity and expiry is an advantage over someone who does not know it, but it is a question of whether the game is playable if you want to live in the roads.

      If you are not allowed to cooperate with guild mates about mapping how to get to and from your HO in an efficient manner, that would mean that everybody have to roam around randomly for hours to find the right way. It is also a no-brainer, that the longer you spend roaming full loot PvP areas, the higher the risk of meeting someone who will want to fight you; so if it is a banable offense to take an efficient route found and communicated by your friends then there will be very little trade or 'foot traffic' between HOs in the roads and the royal cities.

      If you are not allowed to map your way to and from your guild HO in the roads, there is no point setting up an HO. Then the roads will only be for excursions limited by the time left on the random portals you go through - because you have to make sure you can go back the way you came so you do not get stuck in no-man's land.

      As has been said by several others, we are not talking about having motion detectors, tracking of individual players, or having private CCTV systems installed on the roads. We are talking about whether it is practically possible to have and run a guild HO in the roads.
      You are not following.
      If you have a HO in roads, it's your home you live there. You can easily run out and find your exits. People are taking their vague response and using it as some crazy argument. Like somehow telling your guildmates how to get to and from your HO is the same as going to a website and going martlock -> Redtree and finding a clear road path there?

      or going Bridgewatch -> Road name and instantly getting a pathway there while doing nothing.

      come on dude

      If you are a tiny 15-man guild with a HO in roads, then you can all live there, but even small guilds with 30-40 members will have some who prefer living out of royals and some living out of the HO in roads. On a larger scale you will have guilds and alliances with HOs in both bz and roads. Large alliance with 100s of people, larger variety in preferences and choices.




      I see a lot of people being butt-hurt based on the false assumption that an app they don't really know about does something magical they don't want it to do or on the illusion that issues and solutions that fit their own tiny guild must be the same for mega alliances. It is a sandbox game and people have different preferences, different issues and therefore also different solutions.

      You should walk a mile in the shoes of somebody else before you complain based on assumptions. Then you will have a better understanding and you are a mile away if you really like the shoes!

      Btw, if you only now heard about packet sniffers reading unencrypted data and you want it to stop. Then say bye bye albiononline2d and other invaluable sources of information used by solo players, small guilds and large alliances alike.
    • Well, until now we have come to the conclusion that:
      We do not need any type of XPTO program that goes to the server to collect information or even too much information to do the mapping of Avalon roads, quite the contrary, many have already pointed out that it is not necessary to have a great IQ to do that job, without the help of these tools that are now classified as banable. Right!?

      If the problem is automating a mapping of something that was created in the game not to be mapped but to be complicated and random, why do you continue to consider the company's position as something that penalizes?
      The purpose of the content is the unknown, if it ceases to be unknown, it ceases to have its main reason for existence!

      In short, what I understand from this discussion is that most players do not want to predict time to do manual mapping, and so they created a way to have it automatic, but... SBI does not want this automatism and says it will ban it.
      Okay, I understand now, just stop being lazy and work or get BANHammer!
    • @LordSilva I don't know who you are and what your stake in this is, but clearly you would like to conclude the conclusion you would like.

      This is a qualitative exchange of opinions for SBI to do with what they want (including possibly ignoring it).

      Several of the posters here represent large guilds and alliances and they are not necessarily in agreement with you, so it is quite manipulative that you come out with a conclusion based on your own opinion and the posts of those who support your idea.

      For example, Voltel is the leader of 100s of players in the Newby alliance, so his posts represent the interest of 100s of players while your conclusion represents your personal interest. So I would conclude that quantitatively 5-700 times more people have a different opinion than those who support you.
    • LordSilva wrote:

      Well, until now we have come to the conclusion that:
      We do not need any type of XPTO program that goes to the server to collect information or even too much information to do the mapping of Avalon roads, quite the contrary, many have already pointed out that it is not necessary to have a great IQ to do that job, without the help of these tools that are now classified as banable. Right!?

      If the problem is automating a mapping of something that was created in the game not to be mapped but to be complicated and random, why do you continue to consider the company's position as something that penalizes?
      The purpose of the content is the unknown, if it ceases to be unknown, it ceases to have its main reason for existence!

      In short, what I understand from this discussion is that most players do not want to predict time to do manual mapping, and so they created a way to have it automatic, but... SBI does not want this automatism and says it will ban it.
      Okay, I understand now, just stop being lazy and work or get BANHammer!

      So lets punish cooperation of groups of players that use the data they gathered together to map out (temporarily, since connections change) "unknown" territories? That is what exploration is about. And cooperation is what MMOs are about. Writing the data you have into a software tool with a decent UI is just what people do to make stuff less tedious and easier for humans to use. Many people use spreadsheets with various degree of automation for similar purposes when trading or crafting. Should that be banned, too? Can I even use a shared spreadsheet for avalonian roads for that matter or is it also a bannable offence?

      If developers want the roads to be completely unmappable, then they should remove the names of the territories at all. If they want them mappable then I don't see how making a READABLE map by a group of people for other people is a bannable offence. That is just ridiculous.
    • @TSkebee My conclusion is very simple and completely random from yours or everyone else, but solely based on everything I have read so far and boils down to one: SBI doesn't want automations for the Roads Mapping.
      I don't care what you think about the subject or my comment,
      because the position on the Roads Auto Mapping was taken by the company at this point and so far I haven't read anything in this topic that contradicts that.

      Varma wrote:

      If developers want the roads to be completely unmappable, then they should remove the names of the territories at all. If they want them mappable then I don't see how making a READABLE map by a group of people for other people is a bannable offence. That is just ridiculous.
      I agree the names should not be present but ... even so the problem is not whether or not we have names or their collection by the players, but the creation of automatic systems for that purpose.
    • TSkebee wrote:

      @LordSilva I don't know who you are and what your stake in this is, but clearly you would like to conclude the conclusion you would like.

      This is a qualitative exchange of opinions for SBI to do with what they want (including possibly ignoring it).

      Several of the posters here represent large guilds and alliances and they are not necessarily in agreement with you, so it is quite manipulative that you come out with a conclusion based on your own opinion and the posts of those who support your idea.

      For example, Voltel is the leader of 100s of players in the Newby alliance, so his posts represent the interest of 100s of players while your conclusion represents your personal interest. So I would conclude that quantitatively 5-700 times more people have a different opinion than those who support you.
      As far as i know pretty much every group in the game has access to mango not just Newby.
    • Riiiiight ok I think I understand the issue now. So - As I see it the problem is that ROAM is collating multiple users data into one big "map of the roads" - which is what people are taking offense to.

      The way EVE does most of their mapping is your corp/alliance pays for access to a mapping tool then you only get access to data that your corp/alliance has mapped. So if I want to go from my HO to a town, I can go through however many roads there are, the tool will map it, but that mapping data is only shown to other members of my group.

      This is, however, assisted by the official EVE API allowing users to confirm their characters affiliation and such, which sadly SBI STILL haven't implemented into Albion.
    • I'm so confused.

      Lets take a big Alliance with lots of members: POE.

      If they manually walk around roads and map stuff, it's still just for them, mapping all of roads alone is very very very hard. Near impossible. Now if you start taking multiple alliances from all across albion they combine there data the roads becomes extremely small and simple.

      so confusing how people find this hard to understand.
    • iRawn wrote:

      I'm so confused.

      Lets take a big Alliance with lots of members: POE.

      If they manually walk around roads and map stuff, it's still just for them, mapping all of roads alone is very very very hard. Near impossible. Now if you start taking multiple alliances from all across albion they combine there data the roads becomes extremely small and simple.

      so confusing how people find this hard to understand.
      mapping all of roads alone is very very very hard. Near impossible.

      This is far from true. During ROAM testing on the staging server, we mapped 50% of all roads with 3 people in about 3 hours.
    • Reznok wrote:

      iRawn wrote:

      I'm so confused.

      Lets take a big Alliance with lots of members: POE.

      If they manually walk around roads and map stuff, it's still just for them, mapping all of roads alone is very very very hard. Near impossible. Now if you start taking multiple alliances from all across albion they combine there data the roads becomes extremely small and simple.

      so confusing how people find this hard to understand.
      mapping all of roads alone is very very very hard. Near impossible.
      This is far from true. During ROAM testing on the staging server, we mapped 50% of all roads with 3 people in about 3 hours.
      You're exactly confirming why SBI doesn't want the tool. If you have a small/mid-size group of people, it will take hours each day to map the whole roads. This is not the Test server, there will be people ganking/killing you ( or trying to ).
      Even the large alliances won't dedicate hundreds of man-hours on scouting the roads constantly ( without a tool like ROAM ).
      Now if you have even 30% of the server's population running a mapper/gps tool for roads, that data will be constantly updated and available to everyone, which leads to a couple of things :

      1. Roads become a highway for power projection across the map in BZ.
      2. Roads become slavery territory for the big alliances, because they can always easily find/locate all HO zones.
      3. Someone profits, but it's not the small guilds that try to live in there.

      Also show me where eve has easily accessible data for the whole WH space ? And show me even a single WH corp/alliance in eve that has a complete full map of all the WH space updated 24/7 ? Obviously the scale is way smaller here, but that doesn't mean the roads map should be exposed in such way.
    • Reznok wrote:

      Krohort wrote:

      Yea ? What about it ? Show me a publicly accessible, constantly updated map of the entirety of the WH space.
      So you only want private groups to have these tools? This would give groups with developers an advantage over those without. Also what defines private? A guild? An Alliance? A Coalition? Where is the line drawn?
      If you really wanted to help smaller guilds/alliances, you'd do as every eve tool has done - make it available for download/open source ( just like pathfinder ) and host no central instance with publicly available data. While you might have had the best of intentions with hosting a centralized place, you shot yourself in the foot with it.
    • Hey there,

      here is a small clarification.
      • It is of course allowed to manually note down zone names and put them into a spreadsheet. Those notes can of course also be shared with other players. Manually literally means that you as a person make a manual note into a spreadsheet / on a piece of paper when you see the information on your screen, without the assistance of any special tool or software
      • What is not allowed is any sort of tool, script or mechanism that automatically extracts / gets the zone names and/or connections
      In case you are not sure if what you / your guild is doing is in line with the above, please contact our customer service.
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      here is a small clarification.
      • It is of course allowed to manually note down zone names and put them into a spreadsheet. Those notes can of course also be shared with other players. Manually literally means that you as a person make a manual note into a spreadsheet / on a piece of paper when you see the information on your screen, without the assistance of any special tool or software
      • What is not allowed is any sort of tool, script or mechanism that automatically extracts / gets the zone names and/or connections
      In case you are not sure if what you / your guild is doing is in line with the above, please contact our customer service.
      Thank you very much for the clarification.
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      here is a small clarification.
      • It is of course allowed to manually note down zone names and put them into a spreadsheet. Those notes can of course also be shared with other players. Manually literally means that you as a person make a manual note into a spreadsheet / on a piece of paper when you see the information on your screen, without the assistance of any special tool or software
      • What is not allowed is any sort of tool, script or mechanism that automatically extracts / gets the zone names and/or connections
      In case you are not sure if what you / your guild is doing is in line with the above, please contact our customer service.
      Thank you so much for the clarification!