The state of the Dagger Class

    • The state of the Dagger Class

      Good afternoon, everyone! (or morning or evening according to timezone xp)

      I've seen lately in the forums a lot of people that have been ranting a lot about the power of the Daggers, and being myself one of the guys that after some testing with all weapons, decided to get 400/400 daggers first (not yet there, but close xp) I wanna talk about them.
      Taking into consideration the Dagger class, in any MMO game, Dagger tends to fulfill only one role! Heavy single target DPS, and then if the opponent uses defenses, you just wait for a while and then try to go again. Their DPS compared with other DPS class is very lack luster, but they can one shot a important member in a composition, and with that winning fights.
      With that being said, most of the weapons in the Dagger tree fulfill that role, and every single one of them has some way to be countered. But in order to don't base my opinion just around this fact, I will try to discuss every single aspect of each weapon (even Black Hands, LOL - does any1 even uses it? =O ).

      Let's go around the Dagger tree, and talk about each one (sorta) in depth, starting with the skills:
      - Q skill
      • Sunder Armor, used in some Bloodletter HG builds for decreasing resistances, and then kill with main ability. Some people also use it paired with Claws, for ganking. Meh skill, with some utility associated but require to be close to be useful.
      • Deadly Swipe, used of in PvE and most PvP due to the increase in mobility, best Q ability as it increases dmg per stack and improves further the mobility of a Dagger.
      • Assassin Spirit, only used when paired with Dagger Pair and Deathgivers, cuz you can full send your combo with 3 stacks and (if no defenses used) it's possible to one shot someone.


      - W skill
      • Throwing Blades, used in some PvE builds for damage and damage boost (especially important for the solo BD build).
      • Dash, more mobility, used for escaping and some Claws users like to close that gap with it, instead of Shadow Edge.
      • Forbidden Stab, needed to look at the description to know what it does, LOL. Most useless skill? xp
      • Shadow Edge, good for catching up people at ganking, and good for HG if you combo with a Quarterstaff.
      • Chain "Freaking" Slash, the invunerability and invisible while slashing made this one of the best skills in the game! It might seem OP cuz of DGs, but this change was a god sent for both PvE and ZvZ. Playing both content, know seems way more rewarding than before. But yeah, chained with DGs can become a bit too overpowered, as they can control the tempo of every 1v1, 2v2 and even 5v5, due to the amount of invisibility and the E burst (will be explained further down the post). Please note: It is actually hard to control where you will land after activating the ability, which sometimes can disrupt combos xp
      - 1H Dagger
      • aka "The New PvE OP", this weapon is very good at heavy single target DPS, with the added function of healing to improve sustainability. And yes, it can solo/duo clear T6 group dungeons, however bosses have an high skill cap and you need to spend a lot to make them efficient (I started doing these dungeons by myself or with a friend (Lifecurse or Greataxe) using a T6.1 scroll, with my build being around 2M to run, e.g. 6.3 everything). For me, every single time there is a discussion about this build being super good for FF, it will always be a debate about safetyness and resources spent. As in always, Albion rewards those that are willing to risk more, and I'm risking every single time a dive and if they kill me, they can get 2M. I got dived inside dungeons by 5+, I got attacked when banking and ganked while going to the dungeon, resulting in a 8M silver wasted. While getting a lot of fame and credits in between (so it was worth xp). Running this is also a way to be bankrupt very fast due to the conversion of Fame to Fame Credits. Also, possibly the one weapon in the Dagger tree with which you can do Avalonians, and most of the time, Raid Leaders don't want you in. Please note: Is there any other good fame weapon for the Dagger tree?
      • About PvP, how the truck do you consider that this is OP? For an average Joe, this is the easiest weapon to be countered. Even kiting is enough to render this weapon useless, not talking about Retaliate, Purge on E, using walls, Ice Block, and so on... It has definetly a niche spot in the 2v2 meta when paired with Quarterstaff CC, it can be very good has the other guy doesn't move and you are willing to do every single instance of damage, DPS someone down very efficiently.

      Pros
      Cons
      Anything OP in the set?
      - High single target DPS;
      - Able to do solo or duo Group Dungeons, up to T6;
      - Only fame weapon in the Dagger Tree.
      - Expensive, to be effective;
      - Easily countered or kited.
      - Maybe the healing received can be a little nerfed, other than that very balanced weapon.



      - Dagger Pair
      • aka "Balanced Deathgivers", for me the most fun weapon in the game as it can one-tap someone! :thumbsup: Even though this can happen, the combo is way too predictable, and the cast-time on the E is pretty long, so people can actually have time to react and pop a Ice Block, or other defensive tool. Uses outside of small-scale PvP? Nope.
      ProsConsAnything OP in the set?
      - One tap people!- Easily countered.- Nope. Balanced AF.



      - Claws
      • Ganking. And that's it xp Can be comboed with Dash or Shadow Edge, and with both is okay for the specific job it has, lockdown people before the rest of the ganking group appears. But let's be honest... Who is the gatherer or the guy that is doing transporting that don't run cleanse (mercenary hood, for example)?

      ProsConsAnything OP in the set?
      - Very good CC for group ganking.- Easily countered or cleansed.
      - Needs to be melee, which sometimes can be hard xp
      - Nope. Balanced AF.
    • - Bloodletter
      • Best weapon for gathering or escaping ganks? At least top 2, it is xp
      • Only good weapon in the Dagger tree for ZvZ, and even so, it has an high IP requirement and needs to be comboed with Specter Jacket, Taproot, Guardian Boots, so it is also a very expensive build to run and throw away at the enemy backline. Please note: The new Chain Slash made this build way more interesting to play, before it was a bit clunky.
      • This build allows for diving green and blue dungeons too, and it is the other viable PvE build, but yeah, if you die RIP silver xp Before jumping on the "solo and duo dungeons with a good AOE build" train, I used this and each time I died it was like 1M going down the drain.
      • Good for some cheesy burst build in 2v2 HG.


      ProsConsAnything OP in the set?
      - Nice mobility;
      - "Execute" ability is pretty good;
      - Only ZvZ weapon in the Dagger tree.
      - For it to be effective needs help with damage from other sources, until the "execute" range is achieved.- Nope. Balanced AF.




      - Black Hands
      • Does any1 even uses this? The combo between E and Shadow Edge W, is pretty amazing CC, but can you even get close to the target? Do even people get know that they can counter pretty much everything? Been using this in some HGs with a Quarterstaff buddy, and sometimes the CC combo is amazing, other times we get killed cuz... Yeah, we mess each other cc xp
      ProsConsAnything OP in the set?
      - Niche CC and niche damage for 2v2 HG- Easily countered or cleansed.- Needs to be melee, which sometimes can be hard xp- Not really! Probably the worst weapon in the set.




      - Deathgivers
      • aka the "most controversial weapon in the game", rn. Completely OP for 1v1 situations, specially when comboed with other Invisibility gear. Will definetly be nerfed near the next Roads of Avalonian big update, I just hope they don't nerf the common skills and they just nerf the E invisible trait, bcuz taking into consideration damage it might be somewhat "balanced" (I said might, don't go bonkers on me xp).
      • 2v2 and 5v5, has a very good place in the meta, and fulfills the role of the Dagger in any MMO game, however it can be a bit strong has you can bait a big defensive cooldown, without a "full sent" combo. Dagger Pair is way more balanced bcuz of it, even though it trully oneshots people. Knowing the combo allows for you to evade or counter a big piece of the damage that the DG gives, however what normally happens is that the healers panic and uses defensive cooldowns after Hellion Shoes or the Chain Slash. Yeah, Chain Slash can disrupt the combo, but let's be honest, so much invisibility can help with getting close to the target or running away and reset cooldowns.
        • In theory, it is a very balanced weapon as if you can't kill the healer you need to wait for a while before you can full send again, like Dagger Pair, which makes you waste ~50 sec just to kill one guy, while other DPS like Bow, Great Curse and such, can output way more damage in this time period.
        • In practice, and due to baiting defensive skills is easy cuz they don't know where you are due to all the invisibility, it becomes a little bit stronger as it is not required to full send every single time.
      • Please note: The combo itself requires a lot of skill/getting used to, so requires an high skill cap, and it's an high risk, high reward weapon. If you don't do your job, you are -1 in the team.
      ProsConsAnything OP in the set?
      - Full sends can kill every DPS/Healer;
      - Good mobility;
      - Tons of invisibility, makes resetting cooldowns easy.
      - Very high skill cap;
      - Technically if you use your defenses on point, you can make a DG player useless for ~50s;
      - High IP dependant weapon.
      - 1v1 best weapon in the game;
      - Too much invisibility.



      Even though, everything in this post is a personal opinion and I bet people will rage against me for some of the things I said, I will try to summarize everything and only touch the main weapons that have been debatable lately.
      - 1H Dagger being OP bcuz it can solo and duo T5 and T6 group dungeons? I don't think so. Does any1 talks about Greataxe being too op at clearing solo dungeons? Best AOE weapon in the game. I've seen plenty of Greataxe guys with 6.3 or 7.3 clearing solo Group Dungeons too. They don't do bosses, but if what you want is Fame Credits you don't even do/need to kill those! This weapon (1H Dagger) is the best Single-target DPS in the game, and with the healing can output a lot of damage and sustainability. You can compare it with Boltcasters, however the healing is required cuz this weapon is MELEE! I think it is very balanced at the moment, and if you go to a T6 BZ Group dungeon and you can solo it with T6.1+ gear, you know how much you risk?
      - Deathgivers, I don't think the weapon itself is the problem. The E is pretty well balanced in terms of damage dealt, however the invisibility it provides, together with Assassin Jacket, Hellion Shoes, Chain Slash and has some people use Specter Hood, makes this weapon way too damn powerful for 1v1, 2v2 and even 5v5 meta. Nerfing the duration of the invisibility per invis instance (like creating a debuff that reduces -10% each time the amount of time you invis takes), could be a nice step towards balancing this weapon.
      - Can I ask for a buff to Black Hands or a new skill to replace Forbidden Stab, or people only wanna talk about what is OP? xp

      TL;DR: 1H Dagger is fine; Deathgivers invisibility is OP, but the damage isn't as it is a Dagger and it is fulfilling the one-shot role.

      Please note: Opposite to some people, I tried to make a suggestion to what should be nerfed and not just asking for it, and I'm a Dagger player myself xp I think that pointing towards the right direction is easier with good suggestions, than with just some rant. Please make, constructive comments, as I don't wanna see my soon to be 400/400 baby, nerfed to the ground bcuz people only say this is OP without even pointing facts and which nerfs should be applied.

      Last thing, I'm so eager to see what the new Dagger will look like, so please Albion Devs, make my wish come true in the next Dev Teaser xp

      This post follows some of the debate in "deathgivers too strong, it needs a nerf" and "One handed dagger overpowered".
    • In my opinion the problem is really binary. The high movement weapons can't lose by default. So a 1v1 without resets should very rarely go in the faster weapons favour.

      A good example of a weapon (imo) that counters this situation well is the double bladed staff. It has high mobility and cc but the damage is a lot weaker than most weapons. It is still the go to ganking and dismounting weapon, but you won`t be helpless in a solo dungeon 1v1 for example.
    • Deathgiver issue is that it benefits too much from the W buff (chain slash) which buff their damage which really wasn't needed.
      Regarding PVE, chain slash needed that damage buff tho. Just making that damage same as currently in pve and reverting the "pvp" damage back.

      Regarding the 1H dagger, the issue imo is that the dagger shouldn't heal more than the damage it does to yourself. It should even out at best and not literally allow you to heal more than a cultist robe or hellion jacket or even a freaking merc jacket. Makes no sense. There's no drawback since it just allows the combo to be even more efficient specially when the magic damage it additionally do is close to double the amount of the physical damage.

      Oh and learn the fact that 1H dagger E isn't possible to be removed with a mage robe or fiend cowl so that makes it broken too. (cleric cowl not a viable helm due to 1min cd compared to the 20second cooldown of that E)

      Oh and the cooldown is one of the quickest for the damage it allows and Healing in the whole game. might want to place it on 30-45seconds if the spell stay as it currently is.

      1H dagger E is by Design broken like the 1H curse staff is technically as broken but at least you can cleanse it which you can't cleanse the E of the dagger (you can either cleanse bomb or dots from curse depending on gear used to counter).

      So you don't want you lil baby nerfed cause it is broken stupid op like some other class are that actually require skills (like perma as similar damage burst with the possibility of getting cleanse and it has no health regen, like imagine a perma with health regen on the E that allows Q spamming, feels stupid strong right? welp that's 1H dagger rn but you can only melee with it instead of having to use a range skillshot instead.

      You don't need to be good to use 1H dagger since there is no chances of you even remotely killing yourself with the E since it doesn't even do enough damage for that (oh and it removes at most 20% of your HP and can heal for close to 2k damage while it last with morgana cape+hunter jacket which makes no sense at all again).

      There's a lot of unbalanced weapons in this game and of unbalanced items and 1H dagger with 1H curse are both in that for sure like cleric cowl needs to either resist silence or root+stunt, not both at the same time, it does too much which is the issue.
      That's the issue of that dagger. Y'all want to keep the Health regen like it is, remove the 150 magic damage from it. Y'all want to lower the regen so you can only heal at most 20% hp but keep that sweet magic damage, makes sense.

      Like heck, Cultist robe which was currently in it's most balanced state is getting nerfed soon for about an additional 30% of it's healing capacity. It is easily interrupted by any type of stunt or displacement effects (heck, every cloth cowl has one spell for that) and you can still suffer magic damage).

      It is hard balancing those weapons, but obviously i don't say Deathgivers are op because someone like Flaccidbaron kills me (aka one of the best DG player in the game) I say it is due to chain slash buff since it wasn't needed to OS people in high tier gear. And it is a high skilled cap weapon too which the game needs more of those instead of press E and get a kill without aiming.

      Heck, the only possible "real" nerf that I see valid for DG would be making the E work in the same way it is but instead of selecting the target, it's a dash towards your cursor like a Bloodletter since it would create a bigger skill cap on that weapon and makes the difference between equally specced and geared players due to skill like it currently is for some other weapons like warbows, perma, bloodletters, Brimstones, gallatines, logs, wailings.

      I mean great axe currently has a higher skill cap than freaking 1H dagger... That should say enough, heck claws are harder to use properly...

      Oh and Forbidden stab spell on the W is actually pretty strong against healers in HG... Cause y'a know, removing 40% of healing done and 40% of healing received which makes the healer losing close to 60-80% of his capacity to heal himself (excluding the fact that he would get healing sickness).

      Oh, i'll had too that black hands are pretty decent in 2's since the E does like a fiend cowl/mage robe, it debuffs the players so that's pretty good to have on your E since it allows you to have a different helmet/torso if you wanted to debuff your opponent without having to use one of those 2 items.

      The fact that you said you didn't see the point of Forbidden stab might show how little you might actually understand from the game current meta.
      I do know that the dev's want to limit the paper-rock-cissor game of gear counter's and swaps but the thing they need to be careful about is lowering the skill caps with their balancing and new weapons/armors.

      High skill cap weapons are better for the games than weapons with close to no skillcap.
      lucky enough, there is currently lots of options for those imo, but due to the new E on the 1H daggers and chain slash buffs, it makes it a weapon that has a really low skill ceiling which isn't healthy for the game. Reward skills more than it currently is.

      And btw, grats to be able to clean group dungeons, I know how it feels to finally be able to do those since so far i only managed doing it with 1H dagger, Blazing (need a lifetouch swaps for some bosses and some other bosses simply can't be done due to the high raw damage they do), Light Crossbow and Great Axe. Technically, I can clear with perma/1h frost too, but it takes too much time waiting after health regen between mob packs.

      So yeah, the only point i can confirm we both agree for sure is that 1H dagger ain't op just because you can solo clear group Dungeons. (miss my good old druidic staff xD)
    • meng i solo clear grp dungeons with a fire staff, pretty sure oyu can do it with anything!

      daggers are great atm, they were pretty garbage save escape/1v1 dueling jank prior it this.

      IMO we need to split the dagger line into two trees, fist weapons, and daggers!

      were getting enough of both and have enough options for more of each that they could be their own unique line.
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    • @Deathskills You have never once used 1H Dagger before have you? Literally walking away from it cancels 2/3rds of it's damage, the rest is ruined by a 20 second Cooldown 6 second duration that can't be pre-loaded like a Bow (which also has a lower CD and is ranged), the fact that basically every single defensive ability in the game lasts for at least half it's duration if not longer, and the fact it's a melee-ranged toggle on a class that basically has no CC? Seriously just walk away, how is that OP? Any CC, any Reflect, any Invulnerability; it all completely shuts down the ability which is why it's so difficult to use in PVP unless you're facing a complete idiot. It can't be purged? Reflect it. Go invisible. Have a Staff prevent it from attacking entirely. Go invulnerable. Do literally anything else but stand there and you nullify it's effect.

      You're mad it's good in PVE? When since SRDs came out people have been using Great Axe to clear them effortlessly, now 1H Dagger is a problem? What even is this post? Now there's multiple weapons that can be used in PVE and that's a bad thing? Too bad no group content wants a Dagger because it's still not as reliable and safe as a ranged DPS. Use the weapon once in PVP and you'd see it's more easily countered than Curse when everybody says is underpowered right now. It is easily one of the hardest weapons in the game to use right now because of how absurdly limited it's kit is and how much knowledge and timing you have to possess to use it effectively, because the second your E gets countered you're done and cannot win. 1H Dagger isn't even in the top ten, complain about something actually overpowered.
    • Acoustic wrote:

      @Deathskills You have never once used 1H Dagger before have you? Literally walking away from it cancels 2/3rds of it's damage, the rest is ruined by a 20 second Cooldown 6 second duration that can't be pre-loaded like a Bow (which also has a lower CD and is ranged), the fact that basically every single defensive ability in the game lasts for at least half it's duration if not longer, and the fact it's a melee-ranged toggle on a class that basically has no CC? Seriously just walk away, how is that OP? Any CC, any Reflect, any Invulnerability; it all completely shuts down the ability which is why it's so difficult to use in PVP unless you're facing a complete idiot. It can't be purged? Reflect it. Go invisible. Have a Staff prevent it from attacking entirely. Go invulnerable. Do literally anything else but stand there and you nullify it's effect.

      You're mad it's good in PVE? When since SRDs came out people have been using Great Axe to clear them effortlessly, now 1H Dagger is a problem? What even is this post? Now there's multiple weapons that can be used in PVE and that's a bad thing? Too bad no group content wants a Dagger because it's still not as reliable and safe as a ranged DPS. Use the weapon once in PVP and you'd see it's more easily countered than Curse when everybody says is underpowered right now. It is easily one of the hardest weapons in the game to use right now because of how absurdly limited it's kit is and how much knowledge and timing you have to possess to use it effectively, because the second your E gets countered you're done and cannot win. 1H Dagger isn't even in the top ten, complain about something actually overpowered.
      I did use the dagger and played against it. I agree with most of what you said except that you can't always run away from it... soldier boots allows that funnily enough and demon boots too. Weird since i do think i've seen a decent amount of 1H dagger with lifetouch in 2's or QS with 1H dagger too.
      the weapon is unbalanced due to the nature of the spell. It shouldn't be doing that much healing with so little self damage or just have it do less damage to balance it.

      oh and i personally aint mad that peeps can solo group dungeon with it, i'm glad for that since it does require a brain to do, you can't just be 400 specs and expect to be able to solo a group dungeon, not how this game works luckily enough.

      Hardest weapon in the game to use ain't the 1H dagger for sure, DG have high skill ceiling, dual dagger too, heck polehammer and tombhammer have a higher skill ceiling than the 1H dagger currently.
      The 1H dagger skill ceiling is the same as regular bow. Except that it's E heals you instead of requiring you to have a merc jacket on to do that part.

      People don't like melee dps in avalonian or hce or dungeons since most high tier one, any attacks 2 shots dps and close to 4-5 shots tanks. So obviously being at risk of blocking the view of a tank and having the tank block your own for an incoming aoe would make shit harder since you as the mdps would be almost 1shot and the tank would lose hp without valid reason too. Doesn't make sense at all. It ain't for being reliable, it's for being in the way of each other literally and that excludes for the 1-2 bosses in the game that you can't have 2 person at melee range or else it's almost guaranteed to be a group wipe.

      Thanks for bringing arguments to this, i'll still have to sleep on it since you did brought valid points even though i do not think they are enough to counter balance everything that this specific dagger does (which imo is too much like cleric cowl and E of lifetouch).
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      Deathskills wrote:

      I did use the dagger and played against it. I agree with most of what you said except that you can't always run away from it... soldier boots allows that funnily enough and demon boots too. That means that the Dagger has to already completely waste a minute-long cooldown in the attempt to do damage. That's melee in a nutshell, and the problem with melee in this game in general. A bow will outright kill you by slamming a fatroll on a keyboard and still has boots for utility or escape, but melee has to use these abilities just to function. In this situation, the melee SHOULD be incredibly strong because not only do they have to use more resources to even deal damage, but they are blowing their escapes as well and have to commit to it. Weird since i do think i've seen a decent amount of 1H dagger with lifetouch in 2's or QS with 1H dagger too. It isn't meta beyond double chain slash Bloodletter.

      the weapon is unbalanced due to the nature of the spell. Indeed, I agree; it needs to be buffed because my entire weapon's kit shouldn't be invalidated by walking away from me. Daggers absolutely have and always needed CC, and in my opinion it should be brought about by an overhaul of the weapon tree's passives because dagger passives are garbage. It shouldn't be doing that much healing with so little self damage or just have it do less damage to balance it. Dealing 600+ damage to yourself in 6 seconds is by no means insignificant, and the healing is not happening unless the dagger is point blank and actually dealing damage to you which they have to really commit to. That's why any CC, invulnerability, invisibility, etc. absolutely wrecks 1H dagger because it means it didn't heal anything and did a bunch of damage to itself or threw away a 20 second CD that did nothing, which is equivalent to a free skill from your opponent. Improperly timing or being unable to play around your opponent's defensive abilities is why the weapon is so hard to use. Just popping Cleric Robe is enough most of the time to completely shut down a 1H Dagger, and if you have a ranged weapon you basically just won the fight because while they're trying to get out of your attack range you're dealing free damage to them. Follow that up with another defensive (boots, helm) and it's a free kill. Welcome to playing basically any Melee weapon in the game that isn't a sword. 1H Dagger is effective, and it's one of the more balanced weapons in the game because it has a niche and can be usable but at the same time it's incredibly easy to counter making it incredibly hard to play.

      If your loadout is similar to the daggers, as in you're trying to maximize your spells in order to actually get close or deal maximum damage, then yes; you'll probably lose in a straight up DPS fight if you don't have any kind of defensive beyond a single use of something like Hunter Hood. Timing your E properly as a dagger to turn a fight around is the entire emphasis of the weapon, you need to pressure the opponent into using defensive at bad times and capitalize on their mistakes by healing up while finishing them off. Again, welcome to Albion: the game where your weapon can have a massive counter that renders it completely useless against other players. I do want to bring up again that a Staff will absolutely destroy a Dagger without even trying because they have a spell that literally makes it impossible for the Dagger's E to ever deal damage. Forceful Swing is a W ability that is up any time the dagger's E is up and prevents auto attacks for 8 seconds and requires a Merc hood cleanse to get rid of it, which means the dagger won't have important options like Assassin Hood or Specter Hood.


      oh and i personally aint mad that peeps can solo group dungeon with it, i'm glad for that since it does require a brain to do, you can't just be 400 specs and expect to be able to solo a group dungeon, not how this game works luckily enough.

      Hardest weapon in the game to use ain't the 1H dagger for sure, DG have high skill ceiling, dual dagger too, heck polehammer and tombhammer have a higher skill ceiling than the 1H dagger currently.
      The 1H dagger skill ceiling is the same as regular bow. Except that it's E heals you instead of requiring you to have a merc jacket on to do that part. Your opinion is that skillshot = high skill ceiling. It doesn't always mean that. Very few skillshots in Albion are difficult to land compared to other MOBA styled games. That's like trying to say Bow and 1H Dagger are the same skill level, when 1H Dagger is several times more difficult to use because it's Melee. The problem that you don't seem to understand is that all 1H Dagger does is punish bad players. Against skilled players, 1H Dagger is almost unusable, and you have to be much more focused than your opponent in order to use it effectively. You're talking about a weapon that doesn't do any damage outside of it's E, but it's E is also a huge tell and very easy to counter in a multitude of ways with a single character being able to have the ability to counter it consecutive times just in armor abilities, let alone on their weapon. It is effective, but it's also incredibly difficult to play. You have to build your entire load out on being able to effectively use that E.


      People don't like melee dps in avalonian or hce or dungeons since most high tier one, any attacks 2 shots dps and close to 4-5 shots tanks. Yeah, that's the problem with Albion. There are so few viable melee DPS in the game because SBI designed basically every mechanic against them. So obviously being at risk of blocking the view of a tank and having the tank block your own for an incoming aoe would make shit harder since you as the mdps would be almost 1shot and the tank would lose hp without valid reason too. And this is a good thing? I'm not trying to bring up the massive, glaring problems with Melee in Albion, but you're kind of writing my script for me here. The entire game's design needs an overhaul at this point. Doesn't make sense at all. It ain't for being reliable, it's for being in the way of each other literally and that excludes for the 1-2 bosses in the game that you can't have 2 person at melee range or else it's almost guaranteed to be a group wipe.

      Thanks for bringing arguments to this, i'll still have to sleep on it since you did brought valid points even though i do not think they are enough to counter balance everything that this specific dagger does (which imo is too much like cleric cowl and E of lifetouch).
    • New

      Thanks for the reply, like i said, i do need to sleep on it, but i will still maintain that the dps amount compared to self inflicted damage without risk of suicide (looking at your graveguard helm) with the amount of heal potential of the weapon makes it too strong. Obviously if you have a bow you can kite the shit out of a dagger, which isn't a fight you can't and shouldn't take.

      I do believe that 1H dagger a really strong against any type of caster build since to cast you aren't moving and can't really kite well while the E of the dagger will literally, every single time, take you from 5% hp to full hp before half the spell is done.

      600hp is nothing dude... specter jacket does more self damage and bring less dps to a fight than the E of that dagger. Literally, it makes the BL build less good than the 1H dagger for 1vs1 just due to sheer dps vs healing potential from a melee weapon (it ain't a healing weapon right? cause there isn't any other weapon that does this and weirdly enough, other weapons have similar dps output or close too but don't heal yourself back and nobody cries about them, weird, ain't it?).

      My point is that 1H dagger in open world, yeah for sure, it will be shit. But in solo dungeon, in 2's and in group dungeon (obviously in corrupted when they release too) will but almost stronger than deathgivers which has no healing capacity for basically the same dps amount and a bit less mobility.
      Fuck it, i'll say it, 1H dagger has more healing potential than great nature from my pov. You know THE rat build for selfsustain and doing damage? welp now it's the 1H dagger.

      That's the issue. It isn't a healing weapon. It shouldn't heal you at all or you reduce the dps output to keep the healing. Can't have big clap with big heals without having to make a compromise on another equipment piece which currently the case for that weapon.

      Literally, the magic damage output from that spell alone is good enough since it basically outdamages a cultist robe if you have 3k hp or less for sure... That's stupid right? A melee weapon (aka physical damage) makes more magic damage than a lot of other weapons that should counter the cultist or require an interrupt. Strange how i can keep bringing examples of why this shit ain't balance and too strong for pvp. Do not get me strong, the pve state of the weapon is fine imo. The issue is the pvp part. Literally, i tried it with someone with 0 specs and he can equal the healing of a 4.3 cultist robe while using 5.1 full spec taproot (aka 3.2k hp build). T6 flat with no specs outdamages a 4.3 cultist robe with spec mentioned previously.

      Obviously kitting is an issue for the dagger but is it normal that a 4 flat dagger can outheal the spam damage (without using hunter hood) of a Q perma 4 flat with someone full spec? You know, it's a 90k weapon that is one of the biggest dps and it loses a fight against a 2k weapon, not because the weapon is actually "better", it just heals too much. Like is it normal that a melee weapon at 716ip outdamages a 1040 ip permafrost while both just standstill doing damage... no it doesn't make sense that you can selfinflict 20% of your own health in damage and over heal the incoming damage at the same time as dealing as much damage to the other dude.

      Obviously in a "real" fight the perma wins cause double dash, with stunt on E and can kite a bit and bait hunter hood out.
      Still makes no sense for the healing capacity to be this high for the cost of the weapon and to have such high damage on it.

      The point is the heal/damage combo is currently too high on the weapon to say it actually is balanced. (oh and the fact you can't get healing sickness if being healed from a healer while using that combo makes no sense too)
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      Deathskills wrote:

      Thanks for the reply, like i said, i do need to sleep on it, but i will still maintain that the dps amount compared to self inflicted damage without risk of suicide (looking at your graveguard helm) with the amount of heal potential of the weapon makes it too strong. Obviously if you have a bow you can kite the shit out of a dagger, which isn't a fight you can't and shouldn't take. But it isn't too strong. Everybody keeps explaining that it's one of the easiest weapons in the game to counter because it has no utility and basically any defensive in the game lasts longer than it's E's duration. What you don't seem to like is the fact that 's usable. It can be easily shut down, but if it's not it's extremely effective. The fact you complain about not being able to purge it thus it's OP kind of screams that you're treating it like other weapons when it's not one of them. You don't even disagree with this fact in any of your posts.
      I do believe that 1H dagger a really strong against any type of caster build since to cast you aren't moving and can't really kite well while the E of the dagger will literally, every single time, take you from 5% hp to full hp before half the spell is done. Yes, that's the point of the weapon. Some weapons in this game one shot you at range with a very short cast time and if you don't have anything to counter that you lose. That's Albion. Pros and cons. Risk and Reward. I don't know why you have such a problem with a non-meta weapon that is barely functional.

      600hp is nothing dude... That's anywhere from 1/4 to 1/5 your HP at any given time. That's not, "nothing". Many weapons can do 1800 damage in a single shot without any damage put back at themselves (or being reflectable, for that matter). Imagine what happens if you reflect against that as well? You hit reflect, they probably hit you 2-3 times because of the fast attack speed, they heal up a portion of that but are taking significantly more damage than what they dealt, coupled with the damage passive from the E, and you hit them once with a Q and boom they just took 1100 damage in about 1.5 seconds and now they have no answer to anything unless they're purging your reflect, which means they have a specific build to counter you. specter jacket does more self damage and bring less dps to a fight than the E of that dagger Specter Jacket is also passive and AOE, but we're not talking about specter jacket. Literally, it makes the BL build less good than the 1H dagger for 1vs1 just due to sheer dps vs healing potential from a melee weapon Who would have thought that a high DPS weapon would be useful in 1v1? Although you ignore the fact that Dagger is, again, extremely easy to counter especially compared to a Bloodletter. (it ain't a healing weapon right? cause there isn't any other weapon that does this 1h Axe? It's not like Nature Staff is DPS but right now 1v1 Nature Staff will destroy basically anything including 1h Dagger, so is that a DPS weapon or a healing weapon? Does it matter? No. and weirdly enough, other weapons have similar dps output or close too but don't heal yourself back and nobody cries about them, weird, ain't it?). Probably because they're ranged? And the dagger isn't? And those weapons are much harder to counter? And dagger is easy to counter? And literally everything is different about these weapons?

      My point is that 1H dagger in open world, yeah for sure, it will be shit. That's a huge chunk of the game right there. But in solo dungeon, in 2's and in group dungeon (obviously in corrupted when they release too) will but almost stronger than deathgivers which has no healing capacity for basically the same dps amount and a bit less mobility. Good, sounds like the weapon has a niche then. Obviously if it was OP it would be good at everything, but it clearly isn't and you acknowledge that; so what's the problem?
      Fuck it, i'll say it, 1H dagger has more healing potential than great nature from my pov. You know THE rat build for selfsustain and doing damage? welp now it's the 1H dagger. Alright, what's the problem with that again? Your argument now is, "No weapon should be able to heal besides healing staff that makes it OP, Nature was supposed to be the best and now it might not be!" Nature can heal other people. Dagger can't. Nature is incredibly hard to shut down without a very specific build making it absolutely overbearing in any fight, meanwhile Dagger is incredibly easy to shut down by so many different options in the game that you're most likely going to have the hard counter to it already on your gear. Again, you seem to be ignoring this very simple concept. They are completely different weapons with completely different uses.

      That's the issue. It isn't a healing weapon. It shouldn't heal you at all or you reduce the dps output to keep the healing. Can't have big clap with big heals without having to make a compromise on another equipment piece which currently the case for that weapon. Why? Who wrote this rule? Without the heal, the Dagger was the worst weapon in the game with zero use. It's a melee DPS weapon, meaning it's always within attack range and has to rely on auto attacks over a period of time to deal damage, so the most logical solution to making it viable is to give it life steal to mitigate that.

      Literally, the magic damage output from that spell alone is good enough since it basically outdamages a cultist robe if you have 3k hp or less for sure... That's stupid right? No, that's awesome. It completely countered it. That's how it should be. Cultist Robe was absolute cancer, zero skill nor thought process, and shouldn't have ever been in the game. Armor that gives you massive damage boosts also shouldn't have the best defensive ability in the game. A melee weapon (aka physical damage) makes more magic damage than a lot of other weapons that should counter the cultist or require an interrupt. Strange how i can keep bringing examples of why this shit ain't balance and too strong for pvp. You haven't brought up one. It's been told to you multiple times how easy the weapon is to counter. Do not get me strong, I never have. the pve state of the weapon is fine imo. The issue is the pvp part. Literally, i tried it with someone with 0 specs and he can equal the healing of a 4.3 cultist robe while using 5.1 full spec taproot (aka 3.2k hp build). T6 flat with no specs outdamages a 4.3 cultist robe with spec mentioned previously. Congratulations, you're really good at explaining what the weapon does on a basic level. Nothing about that is OP. Carry a Hunter Hood and boots, boom: problem solved.

      Obviously kitting is an issue for the dagger but is it normal that a 4 flat dagger can outheal the spam damage (without using hunter hood) of a Q perma 4 flat with someone full spec? You know, it's a 90k weapon that is one of the biggest dps and it loses a fight against a 2k weapon, If you're an idiot and lose to a dagger like that, sure. We already pointed out that the dagger punishes bad players. not because the weapon is actually "better", it just heals too much. Like is it normal that a melee weapon at 716ip outdamages a 1040 ip permafrost while both just standstill doing damage... no it doesn't make sense that you can selfinflict 20% of your own health in damage and over heal the incoming damage at the same time as dealing as much damage to the other dude. That's called getting countered. Sounds like you don't understand this concept. Perma has to invest in a similar loadout to the Dagger, focusing more on offensive abilities than defensive ones to do the damage it needs to. Nevermind the fact you gloss over that permaforst is AOE damage and the dagger isn't, but you're upset the dagger might out damage it. Sounds like you don't understand the core concept of balance. Permafrost does as much damage as the dagger but AOE? At range? Sounds pretty imba to me.


      Obviously in a "real" fight the perma wins cause double dash, with stunt on E and can kite a bit and bait hunter hood out. Then why even bring it up? Strawman much? You didn't accomplish anything but waste both our time.
      Still makes no sense for the healing capacity to be this high for the cost of the weapon and to have such high damage on it. So wait, Perma beats it but dagger is OP anyways, even though it loses, because it has high damage? If Permafrost beats it what does it matter? It seems like you acknowledge the fact that dagger is easy to counter, but then immediately double down on the fact that it heals therefore it's OP. Make up your mind. Again, just pointing out the obvious: Permafrost is AOE. Dagger isn't.

      The point is the heal/damage combo is currently too high on the weapon to say it actually is balanced. It isn't. That's what makes it usable. Even with this the weapon is still not even meta because of how easy it is to shut down. (oh and the fact you can't get healing sickness if being healed from a healer while using that combo makes no sense too) Probably because if Lifesteal triggered it a bunch of other weapons in the game would suddenly be far less useful in group PVP and would absolutely murder melee having a chance ever because the character that's always in range and always taking damage gets less healing because Deathskills says so.
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      Daggers are fine (dgivers ore OP)
      A-tier weapon yes
      But not OP like weapon line
      All crying about “to high dps” or about “to much healing” is posted by ppl who don’t know what the “balance” means and how it should work
      They just where stupidly killed by 1h and that makes them cry all the time
      All weapons could kill each other
      Point is - the right build and tactics