Dungeon Scouting

    • Loholt wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      Loholt wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      Tabor wrote:

      Things a group running a dungeon can do are below. This assumes a dungeon enemy alert/A out removed compromise is made.

      *As Holly mentioned above leave a few mobs up at entrance lazy divers will not bother checking past the first few pulls. The enemy alert would only happen if non-party individuals enter after you enter so the divers would not be alerted someone is already inside.

      *Once you are alerted as the runners you can leave a few mobs up in front of you to give your group the fight advantage against the divers.

      *You can choose to try to run through mobs and kill final boss fast as that is what would spawn the exit portal (you would not get loot in this case since the chest would not open due to not clearing enough mobs).

      *You should have AoE type abilities already as the running group as will the divers. Therefore the only difference is defensives. If you run some at risk comp without planning for a potential dive that is on you. Mobs are easy to clear.

      The risk to the divers is the runners have a larger group (which is often the case all diving is not excessive numbers). The other risk is often it can take 30 to 40 minutes to even find a dungeon being ran. That is all lost money making opportunity elsewhere.
      Only shitters ask for remove a-out.Risk of bigger group in dungeon?LolRisk of waste of time?

      Ok sure, but you still like x20 reward from the reward of group in dungeon.

      But the have all this risks + divers risk.

      So you ask to reduce risk for divers, who got x20 reward.

      And increase risk for players who need fame farm(new players), who got less reward.


      Why you say something about balance?
      Just say it fair, we want the free items from new players group, we want them no chance to run, we want kill secure.

      Just ask SBI kill all in dungeon right when you enter, and transfer all they gear to your bank.
      This is what you want, so ask about it loud and clear.

      And dont shit us like "we wanna pvp", if you wanna pvp - go 5v5 hellgate.

      There is alot of ppl who have pvp gear and wanna pvp, they will be happy to pvp with you.
      i think being able to A out is a little too safe when combined with a scout but yes you are right, there needs to be more rewards/a better fighting chance for the pve players.If you could only leave at the start or end of a dungeon, but were alerted that a group that isnt your party came inside somehow, you would be able to prepare to fight, run past the gankers to the entrance/exit, or skip the remaining adds and leave via the exit at the end.
      its the same as solo dungeons right now, usually it doesnt matter if you have one or 5 guys if you find a solo player mid pull, hes gunna die.

      on the same note, 2-3 divers can kill a pve group of 5+ players with no scout in a group dungeon assuming you get them mid pull.


      the system needs a change, more risk, more reward, and more options for counter play IMO is whats needed.
      Ideas like this are, IMO, useless.You're just trading the A out for something that'd be basically the same thing, but take 10x as long.
      If I had a scout and got dived I'd just run with my party past mobs with skip gear and use the exit. It'd take longer, the divers would also take longer because they'd also have to skip the mobs to try and get to us and, in the end, we'd all be in the exact same spot.

      Here is a tip for divers: you can actually gank in the open world too. When people A out you can chase them (I know, big surprise here for you guys!) and kill them after the bubble disappears (which requires either time or distance).

      But, as stated by everyone, what divers want is free lot, not PvP content, they just say PvP because they want their argument of banning scouts to sound "fair" while we all know they just want a fight they can't lose with a nice loot in the end (0 risk, high reward). We all know that if they wanted PvP they'd go Arena, GvG, HG, ZvZ or even try to gank in the open world.

      So what we are actually arguing is if we should give people who want 0 risk and high reward the content they want. And I honestly have no idea why we should. I can't understand why we are actually discussing this for so long.
      were arguing that there should be more risk to both divers, and dungeon runners.the system we have now does not incentivize PVP and is far too safe for both the dungeon runner and gankers.

      your comment doesnt do anything, doesnt add to the discussion.

      sure we can gank in the overworld, people do already with blobs of 20+ and also enjoy no risk high reward ganking, witch needs to change as well.

      i also dont understand why we keep giving people (dungeon runners ) high reward and little risk. i also cant understand why this problem of scouts, no risk ganking, and n+1 literally everything that doesnt have a hard player cap .

      i dont understand why people like you think they have anything valuable to contribute when clearly all you want to do is run dungeons with 0 risk and all the reward.
      We beg to differ, I think I added a lot to the discussion by saying that the solution presented is not a solution and that divers doesn't have to limit themselves to INSIDE the dungeon only.
      You don't have to get mad at me and start throwing stones just because your solution is poor (and that is MY opinion about it, doesn't mean it is poor to someone else).

      And I speak for myself, but the best drop I've ever got in a T8 blue dg was a 8.3 excepcional bag. And I do a lot of dgs. So I don't really see the "high reward, low risk" aspect because I actually lose silver doing dgs (because of yellow fame).

      Unless you mean getting fame, in which case I agree that, when using scouts, it's a high reward, low risk business.

      And, Idk, I'm starting to train PvP now (GvG and HG, mostly), after I learned a little more and established myself (at least in terms of combat spec). But when I go for dgs, I DON'T WANT PvP content. Period. "But it's a PvP driven game and blah blah blah". No, it's a sandbox game. I play the way I want. I want to farm fame and not get into PvP and so I'll go do that. If scouts let me do it in a safer way, then I'll use scouts (when not aganist the ToS rules)

      And if divers are so eager to have PvP content, well, as stated above, there's plenty of it. PLENTY (open world gank, diving, HG, scrims, Arena, duels, GvGs, ZvZs, ranting in forums...). Just... Jesus... stop crying so much about someone wanting to play a sandbox game without getting jumped 5 times in the same dg by 10 dudes.
      bro, pvp and pve are not mutually exclusive in this game, thats what you fail to see. (except hces! go do those if you want to be safe.. or blues or yellows. )

      i want to kill you in your dungeon, this is a sandbox so ill do that. I suggest that dungeon runners get a means of fighting back, you just ignore it and say its fine now because you want to avoid pvp.

      no one cares if "you dont want PVP. Period" in fact that just makes me want to gank you even more because i can in a sandbox game.

      if you cant understand that then maybe go play a themepark MMO where they separate pvp and pve, while providing no risk for either activity? sounds more up your alley.
      generic signature
    • deivleon wrote:

      I dont think its a difficult topic, if you want to do Pve in a safe place go blue/yellow zone, dont use a spotter
      No, thanks. I'll keep scouting for my friend while he scouts for me and we do solo dg's in different maps.

      Yesterday I get dived by 8 players in a solo dg. I would be dead if I didn't had a scout. If they had half of a brain I would be dead either way since i was in the corner of the map and they could set up to kill me. But no. They choose to curse the scout for doing it LUL.
      That was glorious. I love when divers cry about it and i'll keep using it until I have an option to fight or try to run.
      It's expensive to use it on solo dg's and is boring to do what I do (scout for a friend while he scout for me) so as soon they give us a chance i'll quit using it at the spot.
    • Let Scouts be scouting.

      I never used scouts and dont know someone who uses scouts for solo and group dungeons. Only for Raids.

      And if dungeon grinders get nerfed. It would be better if they remove red and black zone dungeons. Because only dumb people would continue Dungeon grinding or people with too much silver.

      Its a Sandbox Game and not a Full PVP game. Like Shooters and so on. And even most shooters have bot-matches aka PvE.

      And if a compromise cant be made. Then let it be as it is.

      And in my entire time i played. I never saw a scout for dungeon grinders. I saw scouts for dungeon divers and Open world pvp. Maybe remove PVP scouts? They are far more common.
      T8 Greataxe Main
      T6 Mace Tank
    • Olafxder wrote:

      Let Scouts be scouting.

      I never used scouts and dont know someone who uses scouts for solo and group dungeons. Only for Raids.

      And if dungeon grinders get nerfed. It would be better if they remove red and black zone dungeons. Because only dumb people would continue Dungeon grinding or people with too much silver.

      Its a Sandbox Game and not a Full PVP game. Like Shooters and so on. And even most shooters have bot-matches aka PvE.

      And if a compromise cant be made. Then let it be as it is.

      And in my entire time i played. I never saw a scout for dungeon grinders. I saw scouts for dungeon divers and Open world pvp. Maybe remove PVP scouts? They are far more common.
      wait wait wait, you never saw a scoult for dungeon grinders? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, oh my god, that was good... If you go to redtree anytime of the day, you can find 10 different scoults.
    • Dismadeus wrote:

      Loholt wrote:

      We beg to differ, I think I added a lot to the discussion by saying that the solution presented is not a solution and that divers doesn't have to limit themselves to INSIDE the dungeon only.You don't have to get mad at me and start throwing stones just because your solution is poor (and that is MY opinion about it, doesn't mean it is poor to someone else).

      And I speak for myself, but the best drop I've ever got in a T8 blue dg was a 8.3 excepcional bag. And I do a lot of dgs. So I don't really see the "high reward, low risk" aspect because I actually lose silver doing dgs (because of yellow fame).

      Unless you mean getting fame, in which case I agree that, when using scouts, it's a high reward, low risk business.

      And, Idk, I'm starting to train PvP now (GvG and HG, mostly), after I learned a little more and established myself (at least in terms of combat spec). But when I go for dgs, I DON'T WANT PvP content. Period. "But it's a PvP driven game and blah blah blah". No, it's a sandbox game. I play the way I want. I want to farm fame and not get into PvP and so I'll go do that. If scouts let me do it in a safer way, then I'll use scouts (when not aganist the ToS rules)

      And if divers are so eager to have PvP content, well, as stated above, there's plenty of it. PLENTY (open world gank, diving, HG, scrims, Arena, duels, GvGs, ZvZs, ranting in forums...). Just... Jesus... stop crying so much about someone wanting to play a sandbox game without getting jumped 5 times in the same dg by 10 dudes.
      bro, pvp and pve are not mutually exclusive in this game, thats what you fail to see. (except hces! go do those if you want to be safe.. or blues or yellows. )
      i want to kill you in your dungeon, this is a sandbox so ill do that. I suggest that dungeon runners get a means of fighting back, you just ignore it and say its fine now because you want to avoid pvp.

      no one cares if "you dont want PVP. Period" in fact that just makes me want to gank you even more because i can in a sandbox game.

      if you cant understand that then maybe go play a themepark MMO where they separate pvp and pve, while providing no risk for either activity? sounds more up your alley.
      I know they are not, I never said they were. Seems like you failed to understand my argument, since you said basically the same thing but with different words, so we are actually agreeing.

      You want to "kill me in my dg" so you do that because it's a sandbox. YES, this is what I mean. So I DON'T want you to kill me, what do I do? I use a scout, because, well, it's a sandbox game. We are saying the exact same thing, my friend.

      So you come and do what YOU want to do and I'll do what I want to do. Period. You want to dive and kill people. Please do. I want to farm and not be bothered. Will do.

      That's why I don't understand the discussion here. Diving is low risk, high reward. Something had to be done to counter it. Scouts were born. Now PvE players stand a chance to either run (and still get ganked in the process) or fight (and still die). But it gets the game more fair (at least thats my POV). Is it 50-50 fair? No. It never will be. No solution will ever please everyone and that's a fact.

      And yes, I intend to do HCEs exactly because I can scratch that itch of doing PvE content and not be bothered with PvP (and not having to pay scouts). It's just that it takes time to buy a whole 8.3 MP set. I'm still buying it all excelent (only 2 pieces left).

      Lastly, that's the shittiest argument I've seen being repeated here. "Go play a themepark MMO". Dude, it's a sandbox game. If I can dodge ganks and play just the content I want (PvE), then why should I play another thing? This IS the game for me. I like to play it. Will continue to do so using scouts and whatnot as much as I want while learning PvP in my own time (since I want to be good at PvP to, well, gank and dive lol), because that's what sandbox means.

      And you, on the other hand, go and try to dive and gank me as much as you can, because that is how YOU want to play. And both are ok. Because, let me repeat it, it's a sandbox game.

      Will you be able to gank me? Yes. Will I be able to escape sometimes? Indeed I will.

      And we'll repeat doing that until one (or both) of us want to play in a different way.

      Maybe some day you'll want to farm dgs with scouts and I'll be the one trying to dive. It is a sandbox game, after all (one last time, just in case someone reading it still didn't get it).
    • I don't speak much English, but here goes my grain of sand to this situation that already seems exhausting:

      - Set limits to solo dungeons: 1 player vs 1 diver (with this there are no more scouts) and add the idea of the alternative exit in a random place in the dungeon, which appears when a certain level of the dungeon is cleared (no has to be when eliminating the boss) this eliminates the A-out

      - Put limits on the dungeons of 2 to 4 players vs 2 to 4 divers, depending on the number of players the dungeon has at that time and add the idea of the alternative exit in a random place in the dungeon, which appears when a certain level of the dungeon is cleared ( it doesn't have to be when eliminating the boss) this eliminates the A-out

      -For each area or level (blue, yellow, red, black, IV, V,VI,etc) a minimum Fame limit (it will prevent new users or alt to enter dangerous areas or for which they are not ready)

      According to what I have read (quite informative by the way, I really appreciate it) the PvPers do not want the PvErs to run away with the A-out in the dungeons and the PvErs want fairer fighting and I think that with these measures this is somewhat solved situation. For everyone who enjoys intensive PvP, the game has many ways to achieve this: Arena, ZvZ, HG, GvG, etc. and even outside the dungeons, great and exciting conflicts can form. Once again, excuse my English :D

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Xdehith ().

    • I know this will take some "sandbox" out of the game, but this company must retain as many players (potential clients) as possible to survive and thus neither side is discarded.

      In addition, there is always the possibility of waiting with 50 assailants outside the dungeon for the victim to come out to remove all the loot, so it will not affect the divers as much. :saint:

      Although they could also implement giant dungeons for a larger group, I don't know ...
    • Xdehith wrote:

      I don't speak much English, but here goes my grain of sand to this situation that already seems exhausting:

      - Set limits to solo dungeons: 1 player vs 1 diver (with this there are no more scouts) and add the idea of the alternative exit in a random place in the dungeon, which appears when a certain level of the dungeon is cleared (no has to be when eliminating the boss) this eliminates the A-out

      - Put limits on the dungeons of 2 to 4 players vs 2 to 4 divers, depending on the number of players the dungeon has at that time and add the idea of the alternative exit in a random place in the dungeon, which appears when a certain level of the dungeon is cleared ( it doesn't have to be when eliminating the boss) this eliminates the A-out

      -For each area or level (blue, yellow, red, black, IV, V,VI,etc) a minimum Fame limit (it will prevent new users or alt to enter dangerous areas or for which they are not ready)

      According to what I have read (quite informative by the way, I really appreciate it) the PvPers do not want the PvErs to run away with the A-out in the dungeons and the PvErs want fairer fighting and I think that with these measures this is somewhat solved situation. For everyone who enjoys intensive PvP, the game has many ways to achieve this: Arena, ZvZ, HG, GvG, etc. and even outside the dungeons, great and exciting conflicts can form. Once again, excuse my English :D
      All those changes are pointless.

      1 ) Limit solo dungeons means people will enter with as many as needed to have safe fame farm - no divers.
      2 ) same goes for 2 to 4 players and 2 to 4 divers - just enter and lock it ( with 2 separate parties ) = no divers
      3 ) Not gonna help with legit scouts, thus solves nothing. Even "minimum" fame for scout boxes is easily obtainable. You're also destroying the sandbox - my guild takes complete newbies to blackzones to power level them to t4/5/6. Why shouldn't we be able to do that ?

      The unable to A out is pretty stupid.Say i am doing a dungeon with a party of 5 and i have another guild party doing a nearby dungeon. They are getting dived and they ask for help, but my party can't A-out to go and help them ? No thanks.

      People will just have to wait for corrupted dungeons in august to solve the "solo" issues.
      About scouts - there is not much that can be done against legit scouts.
    • sh1ny wrote:

      Xdehith wrote:

      I don't speak much English, but here goes my grain of sand to this situation that already seems exhausting:

      - Set limits to solo dungeons: 1 player vs 1 diver (with this there are no more scouts) and add the idea of the alternative exit in a random place in the dungeon, which appears when a certain level of the dungeon is cleared (no has to be when eliminating the boss) this eliminates the A-out

      - Put limits on the dungeons of 2 to 4 players vs 2 to 4 divers, depending on the number of players the dungeon has at that time and add the idea of the alternative exit in a random place in the dungeon, which appears when a certain level of the dungeon is cleared ( it doesn't have to be when eliminating the boss) this eliminates the A-out

      -For each area or level (blue, yellow, red, black, IV, V,VI,etc) a minimum Fame limit (it will prevent new users or alt to enter dangerous areas or for which they are not ready)

      According to what I have read (quite informative by the way, I really appreciate it) the PvPers do not want the PvErs to run away with the A-out in the dungeons and the PvErs want fairer fighting and I think that with these measures this is somewhat solved situation. For everyone who enjoys intensive PvP, the game has many ways to achieve this: Arena, ZvZ, HG, GvG, etc. and even outside the dungeons, great and exciting conflicts can form. Once again, excuse my English :D
      All those changes are pointless.
      1 ) Limit solo dungeons means people will enter with as many as needed to have safe fame farm - no divers.
      2 ) same goes for 2 to 4 players and 2 to 4 divers - just enter and lock it ( with 2 separate parties ) = no divers
      3 ) Not gonna help with legit scouts, thus solves nothing. Even "minimum" fame for scout boxes is easily obtainable. You're also destroying the sandbox - my guild takes complete newbies to blackzones to power level them to t4/5/6. Why shouldn't we be able to do that ?

      The unable to A out is pretty stupid.Say i am doing a dungeon with a party of 5 and i have another guild party doing a nearby dungeon. They are getting dived and they ask for help, but my party can't A-out to go and help them ? No thanks.

      People will just have to wait for corrupted dungeons in august to solve the "solo" issues.
      About scouts - there is not much that can be done against legit scouts.
      You are right, that would not be in accordance with the risk x reward sense of the game; that dilemma is quite complicated...
    • Loholt wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      Loholt wrote:

      We beg to differ, I think I added a lot to the discussion by saying that the solution presented is not a solution and that divers doesn't have to limit themselves to INSIDE the dungeon only.You don't have to get mad at me and start throwing stones just because your solution is poor (and that is MY opinion about it, doesn't mean it is poor to someone else).

      And I speak for myself, but the best drop I've ever got in a T8 blue dg was a 8.3 excepcional bag. And I do a lot of dgs. So I don't really see the "high reward, low risk" aspect because I actually lose silver doing dgs (because of yellow fame).

      Unless you mean getting fame, in which case I agree that, when using scouts, it's a high reward, low risk business.

      And, Idk, I'm starting to train PvP now (GvG and HG, mostly), after I learned a little more and established myself (at least in terms of combat spec). But when I go for dgs, I DON'T WANT PvP content. Period. "But it's a PvP driven game and blah blah blah". No, it's a sandbox game. I play the way I want. I want to farm fame and not get into PvP and so I'll go do that. If scouts let me do it in a safer way, then I'll use scouts (when not aganist the ToS rules)

      And if divers are so eager to have PvP content, well, as stated above, there's plenty of it. PLENTY (open world gank, diving, HG, scrims, Arena, duels, GvGs, ZvZs, ranting in forums...). Just... Jesus... stop crying so much about someone wanting to play a sandbox game without getting jumped 5 times in the same dg by 10 dudes.
      bro, pvp and pve are not mutually exclusive in this game, thats what you fail to see. (except hces! go do those if you want to be safe.. or blues or yellows. )i want to kill you in your dungeon, this is a sandbox so ill do that. I suggest that dungeon runners get a means of fighting back, you just ignore it and say its fine now because you want to avoid pvp.

      no one cares if "you dont want PVP. Period" in fact that just makes me want to gank you even more because i can in a sandbox game.

      if you cant understand that then maybe go play a themepark MMO where they separate pvp and pve, while providing no risk for either activity? sounds more up your alley.
      I know they are not, I never said they were. Seems like you failed to understand my argument, since you said basically the same thing but with different words, so we are actually agreeing.
      You want to "kill me in my dg" so you do that because it's a sandbox. YES, this is what I mean. So I DON'T want you to kill me, what do I do? I use a scout, because, well, it's a sandbox game. We are saying the exact same thing, my friend.

      So you come and do what YOU want to do and I'll do what I want to do. Period. You want to dive and kill people. Please do. I want to farm and not be bothered. Will do.

      That's why I don't understand the discussion here. Diving is low risk, high reward. Something had to be done to counter it. Scouts were born. Now PvE players stand a chance to either run (and still get ganked in the process) or fight (and still die). But it gets the game more fair (at least thats my POV). Is it 50-50 fair? No. It never will be. No solution will ever please everyone and that's a fact.

      And yes, I intend to do HCEs exactly because I can scratch that itch of doing PvE content and not be bothered with PvP (and not having to pay scouts). It's just that it takes time to buy a whole 8.3 MP set. I'm still buying it all excelent (only 2 pieces left).

      Lastly, that's the shittiest argument I've seen being repeated here. "Go play a themepark MMO". Dude, it's a sandbox game. If I can dodge ganks and play just the content I want (PvE), then why should I play another thing? This IS the game for me. I like to play it. Will continue to do so using scouts and whatnot as much as I want while learning PvP in my own time (since I want to be good at PvP to, well, gank and dive lol), because that's what sandbox means.

      And you, on the other hand, go and try to dive and gank me as much as you can, because that is how YOU want to play. And both are ok. Because, let me repeat it, it's a sandbox game.

      Will you be able to gank me? Yes. Will I be able to escape sometimes? Indeed I will.

      And we'll repeat doing that until one (or both) of us want to play in a different way.

      Maybe some day you'll want to farm dgs with scouts and I'll be the one trying to dive. It is a sandbox game, after all (one last time, just in case someone reading it still didn't get it).
      this just hurt to read dude. this is why i tell you to play a themepark. your gunna get bored of albion really fast, the pves like a shitty diablo lol.

      sure, use scouts if you want, but it then makes the risk go to extremely low for the dungeon runners, and then the divers will n+1 to just shut down maps instead, and still kill you.

      this only propagates the issues of, low risk, high reward gameplay in both pve and pvp.

      thats a problem.

      you dont understand this, dont see why having to n+1 everything is a problem.

      you dont see why low risk end game pve in a full loot game is a problem, because you want it to be low risk.

      my suggestion simply gives dungeon runners a greater opportunity to defend themselves from gankers, and kill them too. providing more risk to both parties, but even more to the gankers because now they arent seal clubbing pve players, they are having to fight a group that knows they are coming.

      it wont be ignored, its too much of an issue. just like n+1 gank squads that dont let people into the BZ via portal zones are a big enough issue to warrant roads of avalon,

      just like n+1 to be megas and own every hideout that was designed for small groups is a problem, big enough to warrant, roads of avalon so people dont have to just resort to always having to n+1 to even have a hideout that was advertised for small groups.

      this is also why dungeon scouting and mechanics will be addressed and overhauled in the future.

      if you dont agree, thats fine, this gets brought up enough though that it will be addressed when sbi is able to.
      generic signature
    • Dismadeus wrote:

      Loholt wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      Loholt wrote:

      We beg to differ, I think I added a lot to the discussion by saying that the solution presented is not a solution and that divers doesn't have to limit themselves to INSIDE the dungeon only.You don't have to get mad at me and start throwing stones just because your solution is poor (and that is MY opinion about it, doesn't mean it is poor to someone else).

      And I speak for myself, but the best drop I've ever got in a T8 blue dg was a 8.3 excepcional bag. And I do a lot of dgs. So I don't really see the "high reward, low risk" aspect because I actually lose silver doing dgs (because of yellow fame).

      Unless you mean getting fame, in which case I agree that, when using scouts, it's a high reward, low risk business.

      And, Idk, I'm starting to train PvP now (GvG and HG, mostly), after I learned a little more and established myself (at least in terms of combat spec). But when I go for dgs, I DON'T WANT PvP content. Period. "But it's a PvP driven game and blah blah blah". No, it's a sandbox game. I play the way I want. I want to farm fame and not get into PvP and so I'll go do that. If scouts let me do it in a safer way, then I'll use scouts (when not aganist the ToS rules)

      And if divers are so eager to have PvP content, well, as stated above, there's plenty of it. PLENTY (open world gank, diving, HG, scrims, Arena, duels, GvGs, ZvZs, ranting in forums...). Just... Jesus... stop crying so much about someone wanting to play a sandbox game without getting jumped 5 times in the same dg by 10 dudes.
      bro, pvp and pve are not mutually exclusive in this game, thats what you fail to see. (except hces! go do those if you want to be safe.. or blues or yellows. )i want to kill you in your dungeon, this is a sandbox so ill do that. I suggest that dungeon runners get a means of fighting back, you just ignore it and say its fine now because you want to avoid pvp.
      no one cares if "you dont want PVP. Period" in fact that just makes me want to gank you even more because i can in a sandbox game.

      if you cant understand that then maybe go play a themepark MMO where they separate pvp and pve, while providing no risk for either activity? sounds more up your alley.
      I know they are not, I never said they were. Seems like you failed to understand my argument, since you said basically the same thing but with different words, so we are actually agreeing.You want to "kill me in my dg" so you do that because it's a sandbox. YES, this is what I mean. So I DON'T want you to kill me, what do I do? I use a scout, because, well, it's a sandbox game. We are saying the exact same thing, my friend.

      So you come and do what YOU want to do and I'll do what I want to do. Period. You want to dive and kill people. Please do. I want to farm and not be bothered. Will do.

      That's why I don't understand the discussion here. Diving is low risk, high reward. Something had to be done to counter it. Scouts were born. Now PvE players stand a chance to either run (and still get ganked in the process) or fight (and still die). But it gets the game more fair (at least thats my POV). Is it 50-50 fair? No. It never will be. No solution will ever please everyone and that's a fact.

      And yes, I intend to do HCEs exactly because I can scratch that itch of doing PvE content and not be bothered with PvP (and not having to pay scouts). It's just that it takes time to buy a whole 8.3 MP set. I'm still buying it all excelent (only 2 pieces left).

      Lastly, that's the shittiest argument I've seen being repeated here. "Go play a themepark MMO". Dude, it's a sandbox game. If I can dodge ganks and play just the content I want (PvE), then why should I play another thing? This IS the game for me. I like to play it. Will continue to do so using scouts and whatnot as much as I want while learning PvP in my own time (since I want to be good at PvP to, well, gank and dive lol), because that's what sandbox means.

      And you, on the other hand, go and try to dive and gank me as much as you can, because that is how YOU want to play. And both are ok. Because, let me repeat it, it's a sandbox game.

      Will you be able to gank me? Yes. Will I be able to escape sometimes? Indeed I will.

      And we'll repeat doing that until one (or both) of us want to play in a different way.

      Maybe some day you'll want to farm dgs with scouts and I'll be the one trying to dive. It is a sandbox game, after all (one last time, just in case someone reading it still didn't get it).
      this just hurt to read dude. this is why i tell you to play a themepark. your gunna get bored of albion really fast, the pves like a shitty diablo lol.
      sure, use scouts if you want, but it then makes the risk go to extremely low for the dungeon runners, and then the divers will n+1 to just shut down maps instead, and still kill you.

      this only propagates the issues of, low risk, high reward gameplay in both pve and pvp.

      thats a problem.

      you dont understand this, dont see why having to n+1 everything is a problem.

      you dont see why low risk end game pve in a full loot game is a problem, because you want it to be low risk.

      my suggestion simply gives dungeon runners a greater opportunity to defend themselves from gankers, and kill them too. providing more risk to both parties, but even more to the gankers because now they arent seal clubbing pve players, they are having to fight a group that knows they are coming.

      it wont be ignored, its too much of an issue. just like n+1 gank squads that dont let people into the BZ via portal zones are a big enough issue to warrant roads of avalon,

      just like n+1 to be megas and own every hideout that was designed for small groups is a problem, big enough to warrant, roads of avalon so people dont have to just resort to always having to n+1 to even have a hideout that was advertised for small groups.

      this is also why dungeon scouting and mechanics will be addressed and overhauled in the future.

      if you dont agree, thats fine, this gets brought up enough though that it will be addressed when sbi is able to.
      You really think so? Then why you suggestion all about to trap PvE group in dungeon and nothing about n+1 gankers?
      Ok your suggestion is for what you want us to think for "fair risk/reward for all".

      Sure ok, lets see, we are a regular 5 ppl party, in dungeon.

      Group of 9+ divers come to the dungeon.

      Your suggestion is here, they can not a-out, and preparing to fight.

      Who got risk, and who will get reward in this not rare case?
      99% chance of this case, if divers sure the PvE group can not escape.


      Now tell me, what your suggestion really for, and what you really want?
    • iRawr wrote:

      You really think so? Then why you suggestion all about to trap PvE group in dungeon and nothing about n+1 gankers?Ok your suggestion is for what you want us to think for "fair risk/reward for all".

      Sure ok, lets see, we are a regular 5 ppl party, in dungeon.

      Group of 9+ divers come to the dungeon.

      Your suggestion is here, they can not a-out, and preparing to fight.

      Who got risk, and who will get reward in this not rare case?
      99% chance of this case, if divers sure the PvE group can not escape.


      Now tell me, what your suggestion really for, and what you really want?
      Just give up. This guy is only concerned about making the fight even more unfair so he can get loot even easier.

      Like someone stated above, just make it so that whenever a diver enters a dungeon the whole PvE party gets wiped and the loot is instantly transfered to the divers (without anything breaking too, that'd be a cool idea).

      Seems like this is the only thing that'd please these "I want PvP but I'm afraid of dying so I go for easy fights" guys.

      I, on the other hand, will keep playing the way I WANT to and see all those 10+ gankers failing to get me with a smile on my face.

      And will be looking forward for those corrupted solo dungeons where it seems the fight will actually be fair (1x1). If it indeed is, then I'll be doing a lot more solo dgs.
    • iRawr wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      Loholt wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      Loholt wrote:

      We beg to differ, I think I added a lot to the discussion by saying that the solution presented is not a solution and that divers doesn't have to limit themselves to INSIDE the dungeon only.You don't have to get mad at me and start throwing stones just because your solution is poor (and that is MY opinion about it, doesn't mean it is poor to someone else).

      And I speak for myself, but the best drop I've ever got in a T8 blue dg was a 8.3 excepcional bag. And I do a lot of dgs. So I don't really see the "high reward, low risk" aspect because I actually lose silver doing dgs (because of yellow fame).

      Unless you mean getting fame, in which case I agree that, when using scouts, it's a high reward, low risk business.

      And, Idk, I'm starting to train PvP now (GvG and HG, mostly), after I learned a little more and established myself (at least in terms of combat spec). But when I go for dgs, I DON'T WANT PvP content. Period. "But it's a PvP driven game and blah blah blah". No, it's a sandbox game. I play the way I want. I want to farm fame and not get into PvP and so I'll go do that. If scouts let me do it in a safer way, then I'll use scouts (when not aganist the ToS rules)

      And if divers are so eager to have PvP content, well, as stated above, there's plenty of it. PLENTY (open world gank, diving, HG, scrims, Arena, duels, GvGs, ZvZs, ranting in forums...). Just... Jesus... stop crying so much about someone wanting to play a sandbox game without getting jumped 5 times in the same dg by 10 dudes.
      bro, pvp and pve are not mutually exclusive in this game, thats what you fail to see. (except hces! go do those if you want to be safe.. or blues or yellows. )i want to kill you in your dungeon, this is a sandbox so ill do that. I suggest that dungeon runners get a means of fighting back, you just ignore it and say its fine now because you want to avoid pvp.no one cares if "you dont want PVP. Period" in fact that just makes me want to gank you even more because i can in a sandbox game.

      if you cant understand that then maybe go play a themepark MMO where they separate pvp and pve, while providing no risk for either activity? sounds more up your alley.
      I know they are not, I never said they were. Seems like you failed to understand my argument, since you said basically the same thing but with different words, so we are actually agreeing.You want to "kill me in my dg" so you do that because it's a sandbox. YES, this is what I mean. So I DON'T want you to kill me, what do I do? I use a scout, because, well, it's a sandbox game. We are saying the exact same thing, my friend.
      So you come and do what YOU want to do and I'll do what I want to do. Period. You want to dive and kill people. Please do. I want to farm and not be bothered. Will do.

      That's why I don't understand the discussion here. Diving is low risk, high reward. Something had to be done to counter it. Scouts were born. Now PvE players stand a chance to either run (and still get ganked in the process) or fight (and still die). But it gets the game more fair (at least thats my POV). Is it 50-50 fair? No. It never will be. No solution will ever please everyone and that's a fact.

      And yes, I intend to do HCEs exactly because I can scratch that itch of doing PvE content and not be bothered with PvP (and not having to pay scouts). It's just that it takes time to buy a whole 8.3 MP set. I'm still buying it all excelent (only 2 pieces left).

      Lastly, that's the shittiest argument I've seen being repeated here. "Go play a themepark MMO". Dude, it's a sandbox game. If I can dodge ganks and play just the content I want (PvE), then why should I play another thing? This IS the game for me. I like to play it. Will continue to do so using scouts and whatnot as much as I want while learning PvP in my own time (since I want to be good at PvP to, well, gank and dive lol), because that's what sandbox means.

      And you, on the other hand, go and try to dive and gank me as much as you can, because that is how YOU want to play. And both are ok. Because, let me repeat it, it's a sandbox game.

      Will you be able to gank me? Yes. Will I be able to escape sometimes? Indeed I will.

      And we'll repeat doing that until one (or both) of us want to play in a different way.

      Maybe some day you'll want to farm dgs with scouts and I'll be the one trying to dive. It is a sandbox game, after all (one last time, just in case someone reading it still didn't get it).
      this just hurt to read dude. this is why i tell you to play a themepark. your gunna get bored of albion really fast, the pves like a shitty diablo lol.sure, use scouts if you want, but it then makes the risk go to extremely low for the dungeon runners, and then the divers will n+1 to just shut down maps instead, and still kill you.

      this only propagates the issues of, low risk, high reward gameplay in both pve and pvp.

      thats a problem.

      you dont understand this, dont see why having to n+1 everything is a problem.

      you dont see why low risk end game pve in a full loot game is a problem, because you want it to be low risk.

      my suggestion simply gives dungeon runners a greater opportunity to defend themselves from gankers, and kill them too. providing more risk to both parties, but even more to the gankers because now they arent seal clubbing pve players, they are having to fight a group that knows they are coming.

      it wont be ignored, its too much of an issue. just like n+1 gank squads that dont let people into the BZ via portal zones are a big enough issue to warrant roads of avalon,

      just like n+1 to be megas and own every hideout that was designed for small groups is a problem, big enough to warrant, roads of avalon so people dont have to just resort to always having to n+1 to even have a hideout that was advertised for small groups.

      this is also why dungeon scouting and mechanics will be addressed and overhauled in the future.

      if you dont agree, thats fine, this gets brought up enough though that it will be addressed when sbi is able to.
      You really think so? Then why you suggestion all about to trap PvE group in dungeon and nothing about n+1 gankers?Ok your suggestion is for what you want us to think for "fair risk/reward for all".

      Sure ok, lets see, we are a regular 5 ppl party, in dungeon.

      Group of 9+ divers come to the dungeon.

      Your suggestion is here, they can not a-out, and preparing to fight.

      Who got risk, and who will get reward in this not rare case?
      99% chance of this case, if divers sure the PvE group can not escape.


      Now tell me, what your suggestion really for, and what you really want?
      you can kill the divers? its really not that hard.... most divers are really bad players because they want to fish easy kills from people who just run, not fight back.

      you can design your group to be able to fight better. divers often dont have healers, etc etc.

      funny enough a lot of divers are actually dungeon running groups, that bring some dive gear.

      i do lots of pve , need fame to do well in pvp with certain stuff. How do i deal with gankers? i fight them, 9/10 times they just run away when they realize you arent an easy kill and they will have to work for it.

      what do i really want? to maintain the risk of pve in high tier zones, but to ADD MORE RISK TO GANKERS AS WELL VIA DUNGEON GROUPS BEING PREPARED TO FIGHT AND KILL DIVERS.

      if you simply want no PVP at all with 0 risk of it happening, HCEs are a thing you know...............

      like ffs, there is literally a place people can PVE risk free, the fame/loots not as good but again

      RISK VRS REWARD

      its too safe for both gankers and dungeon runners right now.

      this game is literally all about pvp, the a full loot pvp based economy, deal with it or move onto a themepark mmo...

      or just do hces i guess and never leave town?
      generic signature
    • Oh I see this pathetic thread started by a pathetic waste of life is still ongoing. Cry more, I'm paying 7 people to scout for me so I can keep all of that 100% juicy loot for me. Made yesterday 50m thanks to scouts. If you want a solid scout service let me know I will refer to you to a friend which only plays the game just for scouting & market. Cya nerds.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Binhood ().

    • Dismadeus wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      this just hurt to read dude. this is why i tell you to play a themepark. your gunna get bored of albion really fast, the pves like a shitty diablo lol.sure, use scouts if you want, but it then makes the risk go to extremely low for the dungeon runners, and then the divers will n+1 to just shut down maps instead, and still kill you.
      this only propagates the issues of, low risk, high reward gameplay in both pve and pvp.

      thats a problem.

      you dont understand this, dont see why having to n+1 everything is a problem.

      you dont see why low risk end game pve in a full loot game is a problem, because you want it to be low risk.

      my suggestion simply gives dungeon runners a greater opportunity to defend themselves from gankers, and kill them too. providing more risk to both parties, but even more to the gankers because now they arent seal clubbing pve players, they are having to fight a group that knows they are coming.

      it wont be ignored, its too much of an issue. just like n+1 gank squads that dont let people into the BZ via portal zones are a big enough issue to warrant roads of avalon,

      just like n+1 to be megas and own every hideout that was designed for small groups is a problem, big enough to warrant, roads of avalon so people dont have to just resort to always having to n+1 to even have a hideout that was advertised for small groups.

      this is also why dungeon scouting and mechanics will be addressed and overhauled in the future.

      if you dont agree, thats fine, this gets brought up enough though that it will be addressed when sbi is able to.
      You really think so? Then why you suggestion all about to trap PvE group in dungeon and nothing about n+1 gankers?Ok your suggestion is for what you want us to think for "fair risk/reward for all".
      Sure ok, lets see, we are a regular 5 ppl party, in dungeon.

      Group of 9+ divers come to the dungeon.

      Your suggestion is here, they can not a-out, and preparing to fight.

      Who got risk, and who will get reward in this not rare case?
      99% chance of this case, if divers sure the PvE group can not escape.


      Now tell me, what your suggestion really for, and what you really want?
      you can kill the divers? its really not that hard.... most divers are really bad players because they want to fish easy kills from people who just run, not fight back.
      you can design your group to be able to fight better. divers often dont have healers, etc etc.

      funny enough a lot of divers are actually dungeon running groups, that bring some dive gear.

      i do lots of pve , need fame to do well in pvp with certain stuff. How do i deal with gankers? i fight them, 9/10 times they just run away when they realize you arent an easy kill and they will have to work for it.

      what do i really want? to maintain the risk of pve in high tier zones, but to ADD MORE RISK TO GANKERS AS WELL VIA DUNGEON GROUPS BEING PREPARED TO FIGHT AND KILL DIVERS.

      if you simply want no PVP at all with 0 risk of it happening, HCEs are a thing you know...............

      like ffs, there is literally a place people can PVE risk free, the fame/loots not as good but again

      RISK VRS REWARD

      its too safe for both gankers and dungeon runners right now.

      this game is literally all about pvp, the a full loot pvp based economy, deal with it or move onto a themepark mmo...

      or just do hces i guess and never leave town?
      Funny issue with your statement is from my humble experience, groups that dive come with 10 guys at most (you blob at 11 peeps) and they do have 2 healer and they are in zerg gear and intend to get a fight against a pve 5man group or 4man group. so just the fact they have twice the number with a zvz ready tank instead of a freaking incubus mace or 1h hammer, makes a really huge difference in the initial engage and that excludes the chances of them getting on you mid pull or mid boss and they'll do their best to prevent the boss/pull to reset so they have the easiest time ever to get the kills.

      your HCE bull crap is not valid since there is a high entry cost. Heck, with high end crystal and 20v20 fights, hce is up there in cost. we are talking for a "cheap" set to run 12-14 maps about 65mil and that is counting on you having high specs too. A "perfect" frost gear sets for HCE costs about 200-240mil depending on how good you bargain certain items.

      And regardless of that, the cost of not "losing" the gear comes from the repair cost of going down. in 8.3 excellent it costs 160k per down and in mp it's something like 175k. So if you have a bad tank, or bad healer, you can bet your group will down multiple times and each time the group wipes, there's close to 1mil silver in repair costs.

      so please enlight me how without a scout you can be "ready" as a 4-5 man in pve gear to fight 9+ people in zerg gear? Oh yeah right, best option is actually to A out if you had a scout since the odds are against you surviving the engage since you'll already be dealing with mobs.

      Oh and HCE might actually have better rewards imo than freaking group dungeon in bz just due to the fact you don't need to sell items, you just get silver and you get high fame in level 13-15.

      Might be full loot pvp based, but it ain't fully since doing pvp doesn't give you "usable" fame to specs shit up though. Y'a need to think about that one too.
    • Hilarious to see and read that the one complaining about scouts are the one doing n+1 ganking.

      I'm glad they use scouts as an shitty answer to the shitty way of getting doved. Can't dive somebody with less than 3 people even with mobs putting the guy low life? Sad.

      Unless divers change their shitty way of diving you won't see any change watsoever to the one doing the dungeon.

      End of story.
    • Deathskills wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      Dismadeus wrote:

      this just hurt to read dude. this is why i tell you to play a themepark. your gunna get bored of albion really fast, the pves like a shitty diablo lol.sure, use scouts if you want, but it then makes the risk go to extremely low for the dungeon runners, and then the divers will n+1 to just shut down maps instead, and still kill you.
      this only propagates the issues of, low risk, high reward gameplay in both pve and pvp.

      thats a problem.

      you dont understand this, dont see why having to n+1 everything is a problem.

      you dont see why low risk end game pve in a full loot game is a problem, because you want it to be low risk.

      my suggestion simply gives dungeon runners a greater opportunity to defend themselves from gankers, and kill them too. providing more risk to both parties, but even more to the gankers because now they arent seal clubbing pve players, they are having to fight a group that knows they are coming.

      it wont be ignored, its too much of an issue. just like n+1 gank squads that dont let people into the BZ via portal zones are a big enough issue to warrant roads of avalon,

      just like n+1 to be megas and own every hideout that was designed for small groups is a problem, big enough to warrant, roads of avalon so people dont have to just resort to always having to n+1 to even have a hideout that was advertised for small groups.

      this is also why dungeon scouting and mechanics will be addressed and overhauled in the future.

      if you dont agree, thats fine, this gets brought up enough though that it will be addressed when sbi is able to.
      You really think so? Then why you suggestion all about to trap PvE group in dungeon and nothing about n+1 gankers?Ok your suggestion is for what you want us to think for "fair risk/reward for all".Sure ok, lets see, we are a regular 5 ppl party, in dungeon.

      Group of 9+ divers come to the dungeon.

      Your suggestion is here, they can not a-out, and preparing to fight.

      Who got risk, and who will get reward in this not rare case?
      99% chance of this case, if divers sure the PvE group can not escape.


      Now tell me, what your suggestion really for, and what you really want?
      you can kill the divers? its really not that hard.... most divers are really bad players because they want to fish easy kills from people who just run, not fight back.you can design your group to be able to fight better. divers often dont have healers, etc etc.

      funny enough a lot of divers are actually dungeon running groups, that bring some dive gear.

      i do lots of pve , need fame to do well in pvp with certain stuff. How do i deal with gankers? i fight them, 9/10 times they just run away when they realize you arent an easy kill and they will have to work for it.

      what do i really want? to maintain the risk of pve in high tier zones, but to ADD MORE RISK TO GANKERS AS WELL VIA DUNGEON GROUPS BEING PREPARED TO FIGHT AND KILL DIVERS.

      if you simply want no PVP at all with 0 risk of it happening, HCEs are a thing you know...............

      like ffs, there is literally a place people can PVE risk free, the fame/loots not as good but again

      RISK VRS REWARD

      its too safe for both gankers and dungeon runners right now.

      this game is literally all about pvp, the a full loot pvp based economy, deal with it or move onto a themepark mmo...

      or just do hces i guess and never leave town?
      Funny issue with your statement is from my humble experience, groups that dive come with 10 guys at most (you blob at 11 peeps) and they do have 2 healer and they are in zerg gear and intend to get a fight against a pve 5man group or 4man group. so just the fact they have twice the number with a zvz ready tank instead of a freaking incubus mace or 1h hammer, makes a really huge difference in the initial engage and that excludes the chances of them getting on you mid pull or mid boss and they'll do their best to prevent the boss/pull to reset so they have the easiest time ever to get the kills.
      your HCE bull crap is not valid since there is a high entry cost. Heck, with high end crystal and 20v20 fights, hce is up there in cost. we are talking for a "cheap" set to run 12-14 maps about 65mil and that is counting on you having high specs too. A "perfect" frost gear sets for HCE costs about 200-240mil depending on how good you bargain certain items.

      And regardless of that, the cost of not "losing" the gear comes from the repair cost of going down. in 8.3 excellent it costs 160k per down and in mp it's something like 175k. So if you have a bad tank, or bad healer, you can bet your group will down multiple times and each time the group wipes, there's close to 1mil silver in repair costs.

      so please enlight me how without a scout you can be "ready" as a 4-5 man in pve gear to fight 9+ people in zerg gear? Oh yeah right, best option is actually to A out if you had a scout since the odds are against you surviving the engage since you'll already be dealing with mobs.

      Oh and HCE might actually have better rewards imo than freaking group dungeon in bz just due to the fact you don't need to sell items, you just get silver and you get high fame in level 13-15.

      Might be full loot pvp based, but it ain't fully since doing pvp doesn't give you "usable" fame to specs shit up though. Y'a need to think about that one too.
      i managed to get all the spec i need to pvp , got ganked a few times, killed the gankers a few times

      your experience isnt everyones, in fact mines very different.

      why is it different? i always plan to pvp, no matter what, more often that not that lets me win against people who try to gank me, go figure.

      my suggestion is remove the ability to A out, but remove the need for a scout by adding a means for the party inside to know another part has entered the dungeon. if you can leave via the entrance or end of the dungeon you can either try to fight the gankers, or risk running through adds and downing to them to escape.

      if we incentivise dungeon runners actually fighting back and killing gankers, then the risk to the gankers goes up.

      i cant stress this enough, gankers are terrible pvpers and you will wipe them if your 5 guys has any semblance of skill. you ask how your supposed to fight off 10+ guys as 5? be good at the game. ive fought off 10+ blobs with 2 people, perhaps the issue is more with you and your groups not being competent, so my suggestion is practice and get better.

      you can do t8 grp dungeons in 6.0 gear, how is it hard for you to replace those sets? silver is not hard to make at all in this game.

      golden rule of any sandbox game, do not use what you cant afford to lose....

      ive been playing for just over a year now, and i can buy multiple high tier hce sets without an issue, what is yours? on top of that, there are low tier HCES that you can work with to start if you want 100% safe pve the whole way.... theres blues and yellows......

      are the low tier hces, blue zone and yellow zone dungeons too low reward? thats because they are no risk....

      if your having problems like your suggesting actually gaining fame to pvp i think you need to rethink your strategy of farming fame, this is not wow.

      scouting will be changed, its too big of an issue now not to.

      ganking is too low risk, high reward, its too big of an issue not to address either.
















      Owlsane wrote:

      Hilarious to see and read that the one complaining about scouts are the one doing n+1 ganking.

      I'm glad they use scouts as an shitty answer to the shitty way of getting doved. Can't dive somebody with less than 3 people even with mobs putting the guy low life? Sad.

      Unless divers change their shitty way of diving you won't see any change watsoever to the one doing the dungeon.

      End of story.
      not true at all, its an issue that warrants a change just like the n+1 portal ganking warranted roads of avalon, and n+1 ganking of SRDs warranted 1v1 hgs, scouts being abused and half the time against the ToS is an issue that warrants another change to dungeon mechanics and diving ability.


      it makes me sad to see so many people be risk averse in a sandbox, be it ganker or dungeon runner.

      just this morning i was fame farming solo, and 2 gankers came in after me. already im being dove and its 2v1, but im at full hp and walk towards them instead of pull another pack of adds, what do they do? try to run out of the dungeon while i kill them as they run.

      people who are scared of losing gear should not play sandbox games.

      end of story.
      generic signature