ZvZ Buffs and Debuffs Rework proposal

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    • ZvZ Buffs and Debuffs Rework proposal

      ZvZ currently is a mess of debuffs and buffs
      The 3 main are the following: disarray, AoE escalation, focus fire.

      - disarray is abusable since it's only based on your alliance tag and people can drop to get around it.
      It's basically saying, if you want to be efficient past a certain amount of players, you have to be able to deal with friendly fire.

      - focus fire: the debuff is reducing the damages you take according to the number of players against you.
      a 700IP healer has as much weight as a 1700IP bomber, the debuff resets too easily and it isn't reliable most of the time.
      You know it's here, it can be super useful but can be also useless (especially in the "current meta" aka clapper meta)

      - AoE escalation, making you hit more according to the number of ppl you hit, this one allows for insane amounts of damages dealt by clappers because god knows why it's not in the usual dmg bonus cap.

      Then you have all the usual armor + mr, the "damage reduction vs players" that has different name on almost every spell. They are all softcapped of course.


      So here is what I propose about that mess:


      1st: Focus fire rework.

      Focus fire should consider what kind of E / R ability affects a target and buff / debuff this target accordingly.
      Here are the categories I propose:
      - Damage
      - Damage overTime
      - Debuff
      - Control
      - Support
      - Healing

      • If a player is affected by one of the 4 first categories of spells, he gets a buff with a fixed duration reducing the effect of all the other spells of the same category
      • If a player is affected by one of the last 2 categories of spells, he gets a debuff with a fixed duration reducing the effect of all the other spells of the same category
      • Each debuff and buff must have their own duration to prevent constant buff refresh / debuff drop.*
      • The UI would not show the remaining time of all the buffs / debuffs but would show the amount of stacks of each buff/debuff that each player currently has.
      • The buffs and debuff should scale according to the scale of fights that devs aim to achieve, as disarray is designed.


      *If I get affected by 2 abilities, both give me a buff/debuff stack with an independant cooldown.

      Example:
      If a player gets hit by a damage spell, he gets a buff lasting x seconds reducing the damage taken by damage abilities by y%, if he gets hit by a damage overtime ability later, he gets a second buff reducing damages of damage overTime abilities by z%
      If the player gets healed by one healer, he gets a debuff reducing his healing received by x%
      If he gets buffed by a supportive spell (such as a judicator armor) he gets a debuff reducing the effect of other supportive abilities by y%



      2nd: AoE Escalation changes.

      • AoE escalation should be included in the damage bonus cap to prevent clappers from being too powerful, the current cap is already pretty high but could required to be upped by 50% to allow for more flexibility.




      3rd: About disarray:

      • If the 2 first points are met, disarray makes no sense anymore and could finally be removed. All the balance of disarray should be reported to focus fire.




      Conclusion:

      This would definetly require a lot of work to tag all the E abilities and put in place such a system, It would also require a bunch of balancing afterwards, but in the end it would finally allow for more consistency in ZvZ and more transparency.


      I Hope this is clear enough.
    • Hey there and thanks for the input.

      We are currently considering the following:
      • Making AOE escalation weaker
      • Looking into the stacking up of bonus damage effects as these play a critical role in "one shot" builds. We don't mind strong engages as they are an important part of ZvZ balances, in particular when fighting outnumbered. However, in our view, they should usually not be one shots.
      • The disarray curve will be made flatter in the next patch. The goal here is to balance it in such a way that splitting will not feel mandatory any more once you hit a certain group size. The balance sweet spot for disarray is for it to be just strong enough for splitting because of it barely *not* making sense due to friendly fire and extra coordination being slightly more Impactful than the disarray debuff. It's important to be aware here that since we introduced disarray, we have seen large fights to be less about raw numbers than before - so all in all, disarray is working as intended here. This comes at the expense of there being workarounds - it's a trade-off. Without disarray, there wouldn't be workarounds, but at the same time, pure N+1 strategies would become much much stronger again. It is a trade-off, the sweet spot will be somewhere in the middle in our view.
    • To be honnest, the thing that made the one shot meta viable is because most of the big damage weapons, weepings /galas etc can touch unlimited amount of players. And that's very strong and totally unbalanced. On the other hand, all heal spells are for 5 to 10 players. This made damage input soooooo strong.
      An other think that I feel very unbalanced atm, are melees in ZvZ. They can be badly postionned in the fight 24h/24, there is legit nothing tp counter them, apart burning major CDs on 1/2 dudes. Same for tanks.
      For example, I believe that in the best case, the damage / tankiness ratio should be almost always the same for everyone.
      But at the moment, it's not the case at all. Melee dps deals incredible amount of damages, and are extremely tanky. Escpecially these double swords specter jackets dealing tons of true damage. On the other hand, a 400 siegebow player will make less damage than these types of melees, cause of how the game is done. (disaray, aoe scaling, debuff due to numbers etc).
      I don't know if this is what SBI wants, but I feel like it's pretty much unbalanced, and need people to work on it if it's not intended
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there and thanks for the input.

      We are currently considering the following:
      • Making AOE escalation weaker
      • Looking into the stacking up of bonus damage effects as these play a critical role in "one shot" builds. We don't mind strong engages as they are an important part of ZvZ balances, in particular when fighting outnumbered. However, in our view, they should usually not be one shots.
      • The disarray curve will be made flatter in the next patch. The goal here is to balance it in such a way that splitting will not feel mandatory any more once you hit a certain group size. The balance sweet spot for disarray is for it to be just strong enough for splitting because of it barely *not* making sense due to friendly fire and extra coordination being slightly more Impactful than the disarray debuff. It's important to be aware here that since we introduced disarray, we have seen large fights to be less about raw numbers than before - so all in all, disarray is working as intended here. This comes at the expense of there being workarounds - it's a trade-off. Without disarray, there wouldn't be workarounds, but at the same time, pure N+1 strategies would become much much stronger again. It is a trade-off, the sweet spot will be somewhere in the middle in our view.

      If you do rework the escalation, can you PLEASE change debuff, or fix alliances so they play together? If you do this and keep the current state of debuff/alliances, it will only HURT smaller groups of players! I don't understand how these changes are good for the game when larger zergs are dominating this meta. It's actually insane that you continue to push these changes that directly buff the people with massive numbers and only continue to make it nearly impossible to fight extremely outnumbered.
    • Korn wrote:


      • It's important to be aware here that since we introduced disarray, we have seen large fights to be less about raw numbers than before - so all in all, disarray is working as intended here.

      Have u even watched any ZvZ's past Queen update? I guess no. Show me one ZvZ, where this happened:

      Guess what? U wont, cause now, its all about dodging ur "working as intended" disarray and even earlier, before disarray dodges, it was all about bringing more numbers and more melees just to overwhelm people, run in like a headless chickens to win. I'm not saying that oneshot meta doesnt need nerfs, cause it does, but not by taking all advantages from playing a dps + beamer pair. AoE escalation is the only mechanic that is countering strong focus-fire buff right now. U can try capping it within a small steps, not by cutting aoe escalation by 30% and then maximum damage boost cap by 50%, its way too much.
      If u wanna have ZvZ looking like a complete shitshow, randomly spamming skills all around, cause there will be almost no possibility to punish clumping enemies, go on. I'm not gonna take part in this in the future.

      Edit: At some point in the current state, with around 40% disarray debuff, there was a cap that only very high IP weapons (8.3 weeping in my case) oneshot'ed a huge clump of enemies. I think its kinda fair if you do bring very expensive gear for a higher potential reward? With around 40% lowered damage, there is almost no way to oneshot with casual gear - 7.1 ~. I think u should reconsider the numbers on new AoE escalation and 150%->100% maximum damage boost.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by KickinMACHINE ().

    • Korn wrote:


      • It's important to be aware here that since we introduced disarray, we have seen large fights to be less about raw numbers than before...

      Ofc, everyone is avoiding BIG fights because they are cancer. Right now, more number are way more OP than before because you cant one shot ppl easily and with more CC and less Healing you can just surround your enemy with true damage and burn them to death.
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there and thanks for the input.

      We are currently considering the following:
      • Making AOE escalation weaker
      • Looking into the stacking up of bonus damage effects as these play a critical role in "one shot" builds. We don't mind strong engages as they are an important part of ZvZ balances, in particular when fighting outnumbered. However, in our view, they should usually not be one shots.
      • The disarray curve will be made flatter in the next patch. The goal here is to balance it in such a way that splitting will not feel mandatory any more once you hit a certain group size. The balance sweet spot for disarray is for it to be just strong enough for splitting because of it barely *not* making sense due to friendly fire and extra coordination being slightly more Impactful than the disarray debuff. It's important to be aware here that since we introduced disarray, we have seen large fights to be less about raw numbers than before - so all in all, disarray is working as intended here. This comes at the expense of there being workarounds - it's a trade-off. Without disarray, there wouldn't be workarounds, but at the same time, pure N+1 strategies would become much much stronger again. It is a trade-off, the sweet spot will be somewhere in the middle in our view.

      Ya'll should've added a movement speed debuff as well.
    • Gugusteh wrote:

      3rd: About disarray:

      • If the 2 first points are met, disarray makes no sense anymore and could finally be removed. All the balance of disarray should be reported to focus fire.




      Conclusion:

      This would definetly require a lot of work to tag all the E abilities and put in place such a system, It would also require a bunch of balancing afterwards, but in the end it would finally allow for more consistency in ZvZ and more transparency.
      So we both proposed solution to fix one hit combos and role of bomb squads in ZvZ, while removing debuff to get back little bit of albion dynamics, but zerg debuff is here to stay while the dmg is further reduced. SBI completely missed the point :(( Any idea how to explain why nerfing aoe escalation and max buff while keeping keeping the disarray is bad for the game?

      One of the idea could be actually INCREASE AoE escalation while lowering max buff dmg. That could punish big numbers for stacking like idiots or getting caught in a choke and at the same time could possibly live with the debuff until they understand this needs to be removed anyway.. With lesser max buff dmg bomb squads wouldn't play so large role but well coordinated attacks were still rewarding for skilled groups

      What do you think @Gugusteh ?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by glokz ().

    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there and thanks for the input.

      We are currently considering the following:
      • Making AOE escalation weaker
      • Looking into the stacking up of bonus damage effects as these play a critical role in "one shot" builds. We don't mind strong engages as they are an important part of ZvZ balances, in particular when fighting outnumbered. However, in our view, they should usually not be one shots.
      • The disarray curve will be made flatter in the next patch. The goal here is to balance it in such a way that splitting will not feel mandatory any more once you hit a certain group size. The balance sweet spot for disarray is for it to be just strong enough for splitting because of it barely *not* making sense due to friendly fire and extra coordination being slightly more Impactful than the disarray debuff. It's important to be aware here that since we introduced disarray, we have seen large fights to be less about raw numbers than before - so all in all, disarray is working as intended here. This comes at the expense of there being workarounds - it's a trade-off. Without disarray, there wouldn't be workarounds, but at the same time, pure N+1 strategies would become much much stronger again. It is a trade-off, the sweet spot will be somewhere in the middle in our view.

      If you're going to rework escalation, you also need to rework the debuff. If you add both of these, it will only become a numbers game. How does this help smaller groups of players if they just get run over?

      You're still not taking into consideration the current political landscape. Guilds are out of "alliance" but still actively working together. This directly negates the measures you are putting in place, as the queue and debuff will not accurately reflect on their real numbers.

      Please listen to your players, or try spectating a ZVZ once in awhile...

      The post was edited 3 times, last by BigRichard ().

    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there and thanks for the input.

      We are currently considering the following:
      • Making AOE escalation weaker
      • Looking into the stacking up of bonus damage effects as these play a critical role in "one shot" builds. We don't mind strong engages as they are an important part of ZvZ balances, in particular when fighting outnumbered. However, in our view, they should usually not be one shots.
      • The disarray curve will be made flatter in the next patch. The goal here is to balance it in such a way that splitting will not feel mandatory any more once you hit a certain group size. The balance sweet spot for disarray is for it to be just strong enough for splitting because of it barely *not* making sense due to friendly fire and extra coordination being slightly more Impactful than the disarray debuff. It's important to be aware here that since we introduced disarray, we have seen large fights to be less about raw numbers than before - so all in all, disarray is working as intended here. This comes at the expense of there being workarounds - it's a trade-off. Without disarray, there wouldn't be workarounds, but at the same time, pure N+1 strategies would become much much stronger again. It is a trade-off, the sweet spot will be somewhere in the middle in our view.

      When we asked for the removal of 1 shot meta that was something paired with the suggestion to remove disarray. You can’t keep disarray and make these changes, it’s gotta go, and focus fire needs to be nerfed a bit as well if aoe escalation is nerfed to balance our overall damage and avoid wet noodle fights.
      IGN: DungeonRealms