Market fee suggestion, which will improve liquidity, making highest bid and lowest offer stay close to each other.

    • Market fee suggestion, which will improve liquidity, making highest bid and lowest offer stay close to each other.

      Problem: the current Albion market is extremely illiquid, meaning it's common to see lowest selling offer a few times higher than the highest buying bid. An illiquid market is an inefficient market, making people don't want to trade in it. The reason Albion market is working fine is because it's a game and the auction house is the only place to trade stuffs - doesn't mean we should not improve it.

      Suggestion: The one who buys / sells items directly to the market should be charged the 1.5% fee, not the ones who put up orders.

      Explanation:
      _Market liquidity is a market's feature whereby an individual or firm can quickly purchase or sell an asset without causing a drastic change in the asset's price. Higher liquidity means more people will want to trade in such market.
      _A highly liquid market have very thick order book in order to absorb the large purchase or sale of the asset, which will lead to more participants joining the market.
      _In order to have thick order book, exchanges incentivize market participants to put up more buy-selling order rather than taking them down. In real world financial market, it's achieved by charging a higher fee to liquidity takers (who use market order to buy/sell directly from the order book, effectively taking away the lowest offers / highest bids) than to liquidity makers (who put up limit orders).
      _It's currently the other way around in Albion market, where the fee is charged to liquidity makers, making markets in Albion an extremely inefficient one.

      Expectation: If the fee is charged to the one buying/selling directly to the market instead, more people will be incentivized to put up orders, making the book thicker, and making the lowest offer and highest bid move closer. Once that happen, more people will be willing to sell/buy directly to the market, ramping up the trading volume in Albion markets, which will very likely lead to 2 things:

      1/ A more efficient market in Albion where items sell faster, and buy orders are also filled much much faster.
      2/ More trading volume means orders are being filled, meaning more fees are being charged, leading to better silver sink than the current markets.


      P/S: It seems some people misunderstood what i was talking about, so I'm clarifying.
      The suggestion i am making is a solution that move the highest bid and lowest offer in current Albion market move close to each other. It has nothing to do with helping anyone saving any penny.
      Game play experience wise, efficient markets will only bring good to the game, there's no drawback. The drawback is on the computational resources required to handle Albion markets (meaning Albion would need better server if markets in Albion were efficient)

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Morgiana ().

      • This leads to the phenomenon where to play the market, you basically have to babysit your orders and change them 1 Silver downwards or upwards constantly, depending on if you're babysitting sell or buyorders.
      • This system is also a major protection against market-bots


      I think the benefits of the 2 points I made potentially outweigh the fact of inefficiency, because it makes for a better gameplay experience.
      Bogul#6397 - Merchants of the Mist - Founder & Head of "Management"
    • I'm sorry but in this game literally everyone is selling everything they can get their hands on, regardless of the taxes. People are here to make money and enjoy the game using that money. That 1.5% tax really does nothing, removing it would not have significant changes anywhere. It would not cause items to sell faster. The buy orders take time to be filled because the supply of each item is different. It's all about the balance of supply and demand.

      If you really want to trade without tax, there are discord servers where many of the market-dwellers trade between each other without taxes, mainly with things which are very expensive to begin with and usually take a long time to sell (T8 masterpiece items and such). They sell slow not because of the taxes, but because the demand is so low and not many people can afford those items. It has nothing to do with the taxes.

      Also, there is an option to just put in a buy order to the market even if you could buy the things instantly. Lets say something costs 100 silver to buy instantly, and you are willing to pay a maximum 120 for them and you don't want to click each item one by one in the marketplace. So you estimate the number of items that you will be able to buy, and put in a buy order for 120. This in turn will immediately buy out all the items from the sell orders that are 120 or below. The system doesn't pay 120 for each item, it only pays enough to fill the asking price of the sell order that you are buying, and the remaining money gets credited back to your account. If what you are saying got implemented, instead of the quick buy option, people would just start using buy orders this way.

      Also please do not change your orders, because you have to pay the setup fee each time and you are practically throwing money out the window. Just let it sit, and as the market changes, it will sell. Worst case scenario, it doesn't sell, so you relist it once the auction ends.
      Discord: Shred#6182
    • Bogul wrote:


      • This leads to the phenomenon where to play the market, you basically have to babysit your orders and change them 1 Silver downwards or upwards constantly, depending on if you're babysitting sell or buyorders.
      • This system is also a major protection against market-bots


      I think the benefits of the 2 points I made potentially outweigh the fact of inefficiency, because it makes for a better gameplay experience.
      First point: you don't have to change them 1 silver downwards because you don't need to and you can't. The reason you have to change 1 silver down / upward in current market is because it's inefficient, so the highest bid is too far away from the lowest offer.
      _ You don't need to change your original order because in efficient markets, ordered are being filled so fast that if your order is indeed the lowest bid or highest offer, i'll be filled before you change it (without the need to change the price)
      _ You can't change your original order because it would be matched and filled (because lowest bids and highest offers are only a few silver apart). Leaving the people who was behind you, now become the highest bid/ lowest offer and be filled before anyone changing anything.

      Second point: I don't know what you mean by market-bots, I assume that you are referring to those that arbitrage the markets. If the market are efficient, you can't arbitrage it, bots or human.
    • Shrederinoo wrote:

      I'm sorry but in this game literally everyone is selling everything they can get their hands on, regardless of the taxes. People are here to make money and enjoy the game using that money. That 1.5% tax really does nothing, removing it would not have significant changes anywhere. It would not cause items to sell faster. The buy orders take time to be filled because the supply of each item is different. It's all about the balance of supply and demand.

      If you really want to trade without tax, there are discord servers where many of the market-dwellers trade between each other without taxes, mainly with things which are very expensive to begin with and usually take a long time to sell (T8 masterpiece items and such). They sell slow not because of the taxes, but because the demand is so low and not many people can afford those items. It has nothing to do with the taxes., there are discord servers where many of the market-dwellers trade between each other without taxes, mainly with things which are very expensive to begin with and usually take a long time to sell (T8 masterpiece items and such). They sell slow not because of the taxes, but because the demand is so low and not many people can afford those items. It has nothing to do with the taxes.

      Also, there is an option to just put in a buy order to the market even if you could buy the things instantly. Lets say something costs 100 silver to buy instantly, and you are willing to pay a maximum 120 for them and you don't want to click each item one by one in the marketplace. So you estimate the number of items that you will be able to buy, and put in a buy order for 120. This in turn will immediately buy out all the items from the sell orders that are 120 or below. The system doesn't pay 120 for each item, it only pays enough to fill the asking price of the sell order that you are buying, and the remaining money gets credited back to your account. If what you are saying got implemented, instead of the quick buy option, people would just start using buy orders this way.

      Also please do not change your orders, because you have to pay the setup fee each time and you are practically throwing money out the window. Just let it sit, and as the market changes, it will sell. Worst case scenario, it doesn't sell, so you relist it once the auction ends.
      "If you really want to trade without tax" -> Nope, I don't want to trade without the 1.5% tax. I never said i want to. If the 1.5% tax does nothing, set it to 5%, it will make people care. When people care and the fee is charged right, it will actually make stuffs go off the shelves faster.

      "there are discord servers where many of the market-dwellers trade between each other without taxes, mainly with things which are very expensive to begin with and usually take a long time to sell (T8 masterpiece items and such). They sell slow not because of the taxes, but because the demand is so low and not many people can afford those items. It has nothing to do with the taxes." -> That's called an over-the-counter market, while I am suggesting an efficient order matching market for Albion. I don't really care about what happening outside of the game client.

      "The buy orders take time to be filled because the supply of each item is different. It's all about the balance of supply and demand." -> The balance of supply and demand have nothing to do with the point i am making.

      "Also, there is an option to just put in a buy order to the market even if you could buy the things instantly. Lets say something costs 100 silver to buy instantly, and you are willing to pay a maximum 120 for them and you don't want to click each item one by one in the marketplace. So you estimate the number of items that you will be able to buy, and put in a buy order for 120. This in turn will immediately buy out all the items from the sell orders that are 120 or below. The system doesn't pay 120 for each item, it only pays enough to fill the asking price of the sell order that you are buying, and the remaining money gets credited back to your account." -> I am aware that the buy order in the current market is literally a limit buy order, it also have nothing to do with the point i am making.

      "Also please do not change your orders, because you have to pay the setup fee each time and you are practically throwing money out the window. Just let it sit, and as the market changes, it will sell. Worst case scenario, it doesn't sell, so you relist it once the auction ends.I -> I am aware of this and this also have nothing to do with the point i am making.

      The suggestion i was making is a solution that move the highest bid and lowest offer in current Albion market move close to each other. It has nothing to do with helping anyone saving any penny.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Morgiana ().

    • The costs will always be placed on the buyer. No matter if the costs are firstly placed on the seller.

      If I'm taxed for producing a barrel of oil, I will charge: (Cost of production + expected return from barrel + excess taxes) to get a final price for the consumer.

      If you want more liquidity or more trade, then increase liquidity. You would give players more money to solve this.
    • Morgiana wrote:

      First point: you don't have to change them 1 silver downwards because you don't need to and you can't. The reason you have to change 1 silver down / upward in current market is because it's inefficient, so the highest bid is too far away from the lowest offer._ You don't need to change your original order because in efficient markets, ordered are being filled so fast that if your order is indeed the lowest bid or highest offer, i'll be filled before you change it (without the need to change the price)
      _ You can't change your original order because it would be matched and filled (because lowest bids and highest offers are only a few silver apart). Leaving the people who was behind you, now become the highest bid/ lowest offer and be filled before anyone changing anything.

      Second point: I don't know what you mean by market-bots, I assume that you are referring to those that arbitrage the markets. If the market are efficient, you can't arbitrage it, bots or human.

      It is not about the market being efficient or not. There is a finite demand for the things, and a finite supply. You cannot expect to sell everything you put on the market will sell immediately, because it depends whether other players actually want what you are offering or not. Look into how economy and markets work. Player driven economies sit on the balance of supply and demand, and this balance is the only thing that will ever influence the flow of the markets. If your things are not selling, it means that your supply is either more expensive than other people's supply (because remember, other people are trying to make money from selling the same thing you are selling, but maybe they are willing to go cheaper) or you are trying to sell items which are not in high demand.

      Let me give you an example. Look at T4 stone hammers. Lets say that i decided to craft an entire stack of T4 stone hammers and put it on the market. Typically T4 stone hammers are not something that you can sell a lot of, because gatherers quickly reach T5 in the gathering profession and then they will never need T4 stone hammers anymore. So i put an entire stack of the stone hammers on the market. But are there any stone gatherers in the city who need stone hammers? Probably not. So not only there are my stone hammers on the market now, all the other people who are crafting T4 stone hammers for whatever reason are also there. So what i did was, i increased the supply of the item drastically, while there was no change in the demand. What this does, is it pushes down the price of the item. People are trying to sell it, they want to sell it fast, so they will obviously try to undercut the person who has an entire stack of them up for sale. Then the next person comes and tries to undercut that person. And then the next person comes.... I'm sure you can see where this is going.

      What usually happens in this case, is that someone just gets bored of waiting for their items to sell and just fills the buy orders, effectively "tanking" the price of the item. This flushes out the buy orders from the market, and since now the item is super cheap anyways, many people will just buy it out instead of waiting for their buy orders to be filled. Or even if they won't, now their buy orders can be super cheap, because if someone is really in a hurry and wants to sell the item ASAP, they will not even look at the price just click instant sell immediately. This separation between the buy and sell orders is not because there is anything wrong with the market. The reason is simply a very high supply, which is not met with an equally high demand.



      This is how the supply and demand balance works.

      Also, believe me, if you are changing your orders by 1-2 silvers, then you are going about this whole market thing very very wrong.
      Discord: Shred#6182

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Shrederinoo: formatting ().

    • Morgiana wrote:

      "If you really want to trade without tax" -> Nope, I don't want to trade without the 1.5% tax. I never said i want to. If the 1.5% tax does nothing, set it to 5%, it will make people care. When people care and the fee is charged right, it will actually make stuffs go off the shelves faster.
      "there are discord servers where many of the market-dwellers trade between each other without taxes, mainly with things which are very expensive to begin with and usually take a long time to sell (T8 masterpiece items and such). They sell slow not because of the taxes, but because the demand is so low and not many people can afford those items. It has nothing to do with the taxes." -> That's called an over-the-counter market, while I am suggesting an efficient order matching market for Albion. I don't really care about what happening outside of the game client.

      "The buy orders take time to be filled because the supply of each item is different. It's all about the balance of supply and demand." -> The balance of supply and demand have nothing to do with the point i am making.

      "Also, there is an option to just put in a buy order to the market even if you could buy the things instantly. Lets say something costs 100 silver to buy instantly, and you are willing to pay a maximum 120 for them and you don't want to click each item one by one in the marketplace. So you estimate the number of items that you will be able to buy, and put in a buy order for 120. This in turn will immediately buy out all the items from the sell orders that are 120 or below. The system doesn't pay 120 for each item, it only pays enough to fill the asking price of the sell order that you are buying, and the remaining money gets credited back to your account." -> I am aware that the buy order in the current market is literally a limit buy order, it also have nothing to do with the point i am making.

      "Also please do not change your orders, because you have to pay the setup fee each time and you are practically throwing money out the window. Just let it sit, and as the market changes, it will sell. Worst case scenario, it doesn't sell, so you relist it once the auction ends.I -> I am aware of this and this also have nothing to do with the point i am making.

      The suggestion i was making is a solution that move the highest bid and lowest offer in current Albion market move close to each other. It has nothing to do with helping anyone saving any penny.
      I still don't see how your suggestion would change anything that is fundamentally dependent only on supply and demand. You cannot artificially move the lowest and the highest bids closer to each other. You cannot tell people how much money they want for their items, nor you can tell people how much they are willing to pay for the item. This is the beauty of a player driven economy.
      Discord: Shred#6182
    • Shrederinoo wrote:

      I still don't see how your suggestion would change anything that is fundamentally dependent only on supply and demand. You cannot artificially move the lowest and the highest bids closer to each other. You cannot tell people how much money they want for their items, nor you can tell people how much they are willing to pay for the item. This is the beauty of a player driven economy.
      Charging the fee on the one taking the orders won't artificially move the lowest and the highest bids closer to each other. It will really bring the the price together because the book is now thicker. In your picture, such tank in price happen because the book isn't thick enough. Changing the fee structure won't immediately thicken the book due to the reason you've stated, the resources are finite. However, more resources will be mined.

      Just for illustration, let's assume with the current market system, for every 10 ores mined up, 5 are put up as orders and 5 will be dumped directly into the market. Right after the fee structure are changed, for every 10 ores mined up, 8 are put up as orders and 2 will be dumped. The excess 6 ores will pile up in the market until a point where people are willing to put up 5 and dump 5 to the market again. At that time, the spread will be much smaller than our current spread.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Morgiana ().

    • Bri wrote:

      The costs will always be placed on the buyer. No matter if the costs are firstly placed on the seller.

      If I'm taxed for producing a barrel of oil, I will charge: (Cost of production + expected return from barrel + excess taxes) to get a final price for the consumer.

      If you want more liquidity or more trade, then increase liquidity. You would give players more money to solve this.

      "If I'm taxed for producing a barrel of oil" -> You are referring to the 3% tax, I'm talking about the 1.5% fee charged to the order maker.

      "If you want more liquidity or more trade, then increase liquidity. You would give players more money to solve this." -> It won't solve market liquidity problem, more silver just mean inflation.
    • Morgiana wrote:

      Charging the fee on the one taking the orders won't artificially move the lowest and the highest bids closer to each other. It will really bring the the price together because the book is now thicker. In your picture, such tank in price happen because the book isn't thick enough. Changing the fee structure won't immediately thicken the book due to the reason you've stated, the resources are finite. However, more resources will be mined.
      Just for illustration, let's assume with the current market system, for every 10 ores mined up, 5 are put up as orders and 5 will be dumped directly into the market. Right after the fee structure are changed, for every 10 ores mined up, 8 are put up as orders and 2 will be dumped. The excess 6 ores will pile up in the market until a point where people are willing to put up 5 and dump 5 to the market again. At that time, the spread will be much smaller than our current spread.
      What book are we speaking about? Why do you think that this change would make a difference in the amount of material on the market? How would this affect the amount of materials mined? If there is a demand for something then there is no book to thicken, since people will just buy it, and keep buying it as long as there is a reasonably priced supply no matter what. If there is higher supply then demand, then the prices will just tank because people will keep undercutting each other, since they want to make their money. And if the demand is low and noone wants the item (hence not putting in buy orders for it) then the buy order prices will tank too.

      The 1.5% setup fee is so insignificant compared to the money that you are making on selling literally anything, that with or without it, the market would be the exact same, and the primary driving force would still be the balance of supply and demand. Anyone in their right mind who actually cares about making profits on the market will always (literally every single time without exceptions) put in a sell order to the market. Those people who don't care about it and just want to sell things immediately will not start caring about putting in sell orders regardless of whether there is a 1.5% setup fee or not.

      It's a matter of perspective. Do you want to make decent money for your goods? Are you not satisfied with the buy orders for what you want to sell? Then put in a sell order. Do you want to make a quick buck and prefer not to wait? Sell it instantly. This has always been the primary driving force when people decide whether to make a sell order or sell the goods instantly. Getting rid of the setup fee would not make any difference. Also from a developer perspective, you can't be punishing people just because they decided to buy something instantly rather than waiting for someone to fill their buy orders. I believe the fair thing is for this fee to be on the person who is selling the item, since it is for their convenience to be able to set up the sell orders and allow them to provide the supply to the market and not the other way around.
      Discord: Shred#6182

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Shrederinoo ().

    • I disagree that a problem exists. My evidence will be screen shots of all the high volume and high participation markets (Gold/Crops/Resources/BM). I will also show you screen shots of the sorts of items you are talking about, and explain that it all makes sense based on the inverse low volume and low participation.

      I actually get furious at people sometimes. Because I will have some buy order up for like 500 silver, with the sell order at 508, and instead of just selling me their stupid crap for 500-15=485 they decide the BIG BRAIN thing to do is put up a new sell order for 504 and collect 504-22.6=481.4. A sell order that, if I see it, I will instantly buy because it costs me less than my current buy order does.

      Spreads smaller than the tax rate. This is not the behavior of an illiquid and inefficient market. Well, it is sorta the second part, but not in the way you mean it.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • Shrederinoo wrote:

      What book are we speaking about? Why do you think that this change would make a difference in the amount of material on the market? How would this affect the amount of materials mined? If there is a demand for something then there is no book to thicken, since people will just buy it, and keep buying it as long as there is a reasonably priced supply no matter what. If there is higher supply then demand, then the prices will just tank because people will keep undercutting each other, since they want to make their money. And if the demand is low and noone wants the item (hence not putting in buy orders for it) then the buy order prices will tank too.
      The 1.5% setup fee is so insignificant compared to the money that you are making on selling literally anything, that with or without it, the market would be the exact same, and the primary driving force would still be the balance of supply and demand. Anyone in their right mind who actually cares about making profits on the market will always (literally every single time without exceptions) put in a sell order to the market. Those people who don't care about it and just want to sell things immediately will not start caring about putting in sell orders regardless of whether there is a 1.5% setup fee or not.

      It's a matter of perspective. Do you want to make decent money for your goods? Are you not satisfied with the buy orders for what you want to sell? Then put in a sell order. Do you want to make a quick buck and prefer not to wait? Sell it instantly. This has always been the primary driving force when people decide whether to make a sell order or sell the goods instantly. Getting rid of the setup fee would not make any difference. Also from a developer perspective, you can't be punishing people just because they decided to buy something instantly rather than waiting for someone to fill their buy orders. I believe the fair thing is for this fee to be on the person who is selling the item, since it is for their convenience to be able to set up the sell orders and allow them to provide the supply to the market and not the other way around.
      "Why do you think that this change would make a difference in the amount of material on the market?" -> It's what happening in real world financial markets, a quick search on google will lead to material to read about it if you are still curious.

      "The 1.5% setup fee is so insignificant compared to the money that you are making" -> As I've said, if it's insignificant, make the fee 10% and charge it to the right market participant to see effect.

      "Those people who don't care about it and just want to sell things immediately will not start caring about putting in sell orders regardless of whether there is a 1.5% setup fee or not." -> Were market efficient, it would absorb such dump without a flinch. The fee isn't to incentivize those dumper, but the ones on the other sides of the trade.


      "It's a matter of perspective. Do you want to make decent money for your goods? Are you not satisfied with the buy orders for what you want to sell? Then put in a sell order. Do you want to make a quick buck and prefer not to wait? Sell it instantly. This has always been the primary driving force when people decide whether to make a sell order or sell the goods instantly." -> Uhm ?? You keep bring up aspect that have nothing to do with market efficiency ?? It's like stating "birds can fly", then support the statement with "birds have 2 legs".

      "Getting rid of the setup fee would not make any difference." -> Uhm, did you read any word i wrote? I've never suggesting getting rid of the fee.
    • As i see it is impossible to reach a consensus here because our viewpoints are not getting any closer and therefore continuing this debate is futile. Whatever might work in real life, will not exactly work here because this is still a game. Some concepts will apply, while others won't.

      The people who have been gathering will keep gathering, outputting the exact same amount of material, while those who were not gathering until now will not be incentivised to do so just because now they can sell their stuff without the 1.5% setup fee. When people need something, they will walk up to the market and buy it. And when they have a surplus of something, they will walk up there and sell it. Just because you play around with the taxes, the amount of material in the market will not change. It makes no difference, regardless of which party is paying what.

      Just try it yourself and play the game for a few months before you try to revolutionize a market that you don't fully understand.
      Discord: Shred#6182

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Shrederinoo ().