Make Taxing silver bags a option for guilds

    • Borbarad wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      Potato guilds want get more income from new players? What a brilliant idea
      Agreed.
      I have even better suggestion : Guild tax on items in auction / market. Oh ye boiii
      In the online poker world of the early 2000s there was a huge push to get players on poker platforms, one of the ways they did it was to give part of the Rake (The money the house collects for running the game) back to certain high volume players in the form of Rake-back. poker-king.com/dictionary/rakeback/ They did this because high volume players are very valuable to the game and site, they offer content to all the other non-high volume players. And in the world of 24/7 online poker, as in AO, you want as much activity all day long as you can get, so that players have people to play with.

      If you think of the taxes that the game charges all players as the Rake, then SBI can make it so that a certain % of all the taxes the game collects from all your guild members gets given to the members guild.

      This way guild earnings are now based on generating activity throughout the game world and not just sending goombas out to kill mobs mindlessly. Also because you are taxing silver as it flows continually throughout the game, you don't actually need to give a huge piece of the taxes and fees back, as opposed to how you currently need to tax a guild at 50+% in order to raise any meaningful amounts of silver.

      The taxes and fee increases were a little overboard in my mind to. This will help put some of the peoples money back in their pockets.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • An automated system to collect taxes from silver drops seems to be useless in albion of 2020, specially in endgame guilds let me explain why:

      Silver drops are only a small potion on a endgame players economy, while they are a big chunk of income for new players, so it hits new players alot harder than veteran players.

      Guilds can easily rather tax PVE fame of players on weekly basis, all you need is a spreadsheet and a discord bot to pm people that they need to have a matching number of PVE fame * (factor) silver donated to guild, to not get kicked from their guild. In the end it is not an ingame system, but it serves the same purpose and doesnt affect new players as much.
    • I mean, it's totally fine to sustain a guild purely on a low tax rate, the problem comes in when you want to fight a huge war, or own more than is reasonable for a single guild right, expenses exceed the income?

      Pretty easy solution to that, don't be greedy.

      You mentioned your guild is turning over 32m a week in taxes, that's enough to feed more territorys and hideouts than any single guild could ever "need" but its not a question of needing its a question of "wanting" and because you want it you are looking for ways to increase your guild revenue, which is understandable, everybody wants nice things right?

      Where the issue comes in for me is, is it fair to push that cost on everybody else because you got greedy and wanted to exceed your income? It's like going out and buying a ferrari and realising you can't afford the payments and need a better job, you wouldn't do it, you would buy a cheaper car.

      Then you have to look at the current state of the game, take into account the fact one alliance currently owns 30% of the map, excluding coalition members and renters, this kinda stuff isn't possible without an insane revenue stream, is it good for the game to increase that revenue stream further? I don't think so personally.
    • I am sure @Sinatra.SUN knows all this.

      And I don’t know, he intentionally makes a proposal that can be abused by "potato guilds" and which will negatively affect new players, or he simply did not take this into account.

      In any case, he, as an experienced player, could foresee this in his proposal. And write for example:
      “Give us the opportunity to collect tax from guild members in more aspects, but let these taxes only work for experienced players who already have more than 20 million PvE glories” to avoid a possible abuse.

      Then sure, its a good mechanic for TOP players who want play as they like, make communism in they guilds or so.


      But no, he does not mention this and there are 2 options:
      1. He wants to be able to use this abuse.
      2. He is not an experienced player to make full and thoughtful proposals.
    • Sinatra.SUN wrote:



      we have a 25% tax which many would consider high, and that provides 32 million A week, and for a guild economy that is nothing.
      even if we had 100% tax it would be less than half of the expenses even if noone would leave us due to that tax.
      I've never run a guild in Albion, do you mind sharing what typical expenses are for a guild economy? What does hideout + building upkeep cost each week? If you're regearing players for ZvZ, what does that cost look like?
      AO Quick Reference Guide
      Discord: Grimhawke#9254


    • Grimhawke-EB wrote:

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      we have a 25% tax which many would consider high, and that provides 32 million A week, and for a guild economy that is nothing.
      even if we had 100% tax it would be less than half of the expenses even if noone would leave us due to that tax.
      I've never run a guild in Albion, do you mind sharing what typical expenses are for a guild economy? What does hideout + building upkeep cost each week? If you're regearing players for ZvZ, what does that cost look like?
      Sure, our weekly expense budget is 373 million, tax income is 32 million on main guld and 5 million on alt guild.
    • Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      Sure, our weekly expense budget is 373 million, tax income is 32 million on main guld and 5 million on alt guild.
      Can you give an idea how much the silver tax was bringing in, relative to this amount, before the majority of silver was handed out in the form of bags and not silver drops?
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      Grimhawke-EB wrote:

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      we have a 25% tax which many would consider high, and that provides 32 million A week, and for a guild economy that is nothing.
      even if we had 100% tax it would be less than half of the expenses even if noone would leave us due to that tax.
      I've never run a guild in Albion, do you mind sharing what typical expenses are for a guild economy? What does hideout + building upkeep cost each week? If you're regearing players for ZvZ, what does that cost look like?
      Sure, our weekly expense budget is 373 million, tax income is 32 million on main guld and 5 million on alt guild.
      373 million per week??? Why are your weekly expenses so high?
      AO Quick Reference Guide
      Discord: Grimhawke#9254


    • I’m against something like this. All it would do is further consolidate wealth in the hands of the few.

      Also, by effectively taking a significant percentage of players’ silver income, it would push prices down across the board, allowing for even more, unfair buying power from the few at the top who are “leaders” receiving these taxes.

      This game is about more than just guild politics, and SBI is slowly learning that. The more content they introduce for small groups and solo players, the more people are flocking to their game. Silver bag taxes are the opposite direction things need to move in order to keep the game population growing. Keep the flow of silver diverse and varied and the economy will be healthier.
    • Grimhawke-EB wrote:

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      Grimhawke-EB wrote:

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      we have a 25% tax which many would consider high, and that provides 32 million A week, and for a guild economy that is nothing.
      even if we had 100% tax it would be less than half of the expenses even if noone would leave us due to that tax.
      I've never run a guild in Albion, do you mind sharing what typical expenses are for a guild economy? What does hideout + building upkeep cost each week? If you're regearing players for ZvZ, what does that cost look like?
      Sure, our weekly expense budget is 373 million, tax income is 32 million on main guld and 5 million on alt guild.
      373 million per week??? Why are your weekly expenses so high?
      Well for starters, one funny part is that we get 32 million a week in taxes, but we also spend 32 million on repairs.
      The main cost drivers are 200 million for zvz regears, 35 miillion for crystal regears, 25 million for hideouts, 15 million for food, 11 million on launches, 40 for battlemounts and we have set off 10 million for friendly fire fines. on top of that various lose expenses, but thats the main values.
      Obviously wartime values, but the 200 million a week is a average. War cost at least 400 million a week, so we calculate with wars 50% of the time.
    • So again your a single guild spending 25 million in hideouts per week, 200m worth of zvz regears which is totally optional, 35m crystal regears (wtf!? did you lose every single crystal each week?) 11m on launches, 10m on BS handholding friendly fire fines?

      Come on, you made the choice to try and carry that costs, a single guild should never need 25m silver worth of hideout upkeep, I would love to know how many hideouts your keeping up for that, because by my maths that's over 20 hideouts, unless they are all level3 which would be completely stupid, and again your own doing.

      These kind of costs would be an expense to an alliance to keep going, the fact you choose to keep that going on a single guild isn't cause to seek more ways of taxing people, you should seek more ways of cutting your costs instead.
    • So there are several ways to answer that really.

      First of all a problem in a discussion like this is that you need to be a officer in a outland guild to grasp the cost picture, and since they rarely post here then these discussions will alsways be incredibly skewed and i dont even know why im trying because 99.99 of the people will just see it as some kind of greed thing more than a economic input.

      For your questions.
      Its based on seasonal budgetting, which means that some expected costs are averages.
      you are also right that its our choice, but you will see that our choices are pretty much the same as any other "real" outland guild.

      Hideout cost.
      We consider hideouts a strategic asset, and to me there is nothing more important in terms of establishing presence. taking down a hideout takes time and effort, and having many is simply a good thing. This also includes establishing travel routes from royal cities to centre zones.
      SBI designed the outlands so transport is required, so obviously logistic routes are covered. This is also the reason that its so hard for smaller og less ambitious guilds to get zones, simply because its our interest to have logistic routes covered even though the zones Arent of interest. If SBI added zones on the other side of the portal, the large alliances wouldnt contest. Anyways its a design thing, and we need to secure logistics lines. Just look at the map, and you see that any center guild has a logistics line from centre.
      We have 11 hideouts, and the budget is one t3 hideout a month. it might and might not be to high, last season we spend a lot more, this season depends on the wars. We are budgetting on having a war.

      Zvz regears.
      This is the biggest financial post, and its a new thing for us. In season 8 we did not run regears, and we learned that its a massive problem for various reasons.
      We had a war for a long time with a superior enemy, until we joined a better alliance ourselves. We have a minimum of 2 CTA's a day for 68 days in a row and we learned that we simply must have a guild logistics and regearing program in order to compete. everyone we have talked with who does this are saying we budget to low, while every else saying its to much :). In the end we choose to listen to those who have tried it before.
      The hardets part about a regear program is the work involved, and note really the money. Its a huge undertaking but you wont live long in the outlands without.
      The game doesnt support this one bit, but you wont last if you dont do it.
      We calculate with 50 lost sets a day, which is very low - but again that is based on having 50% wartime, compared to 95% wartime in season 8.

      Crystal cost.
      The short version is that consumables for crystals are expensive, and our budgetting is based on 2 teams getting to lvl8 crystals and at least 1 team to lvl 9.
      one lvl 8 player needs around 40 million worth of gear, if we expect 10 of those its 400 million divide by 12 weeks which is 33 million a week, sure you dont lose all the gear but it has to be there. And then comes the hundreds of fights. we do around 10 crystal fights a day, thats 70 fights a week and consunables alone are easily a million pr fight if we payed it all. If anything the 35 million a week is low, and likely we spend that in consumables alone.

      I could go on, but essentially we are back to my initial point that people who post here or on reddit simply dont know the cost to operate.a competing outland guild.

      You are right about it being our choice. We decide to play outlands, and we decide to compete. We are obviously getting the money we need, but its an incredibly amount of out of game admin, and my main problem here is simply why SBI design the outlands as they do, while still refusing to design for the guilds who live there.

      I know my posting here only attracts trolls who hate the competing guilds, and its just a lost cause because people dont understand or refuse to understand what is needed to compete.
      My small hope with writing these things is that some day SBI will make the effort af doing a flowchart on guild income contra expenses.
    • I am just glad that we can all agree that smaller guilds with less sophisticated players should continue being punished, because they are unable to raise money in the same way as larger more sophisticated players.

      This is definitely a step in the right direction, for maintaining the status quo of less fighting and more divvying up of the chips at the end of the season by the top few dozen entities.

      All of which allows us to click bags of money, instead of just not clicking them. It all just reminds me why populism is such a great system of government. All you have to do is trick enough people into voting against their own interests, and you can get anything you want.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • hey, i am interested in this taxing system, and yes it would help if we could have some more instruments for taxing, considering. . . I could have any of these players coming into the guild island with need for gear, but I cannot supply all of them for they maybe just need some way of divining amongst themselves, but I can only do some much. . .
    • First of all I understand well what it is to manage a guild and the financial difficulties that this entails.

      However, I consider that the fact that you have a super high expense in relation to infrastructures and everything is your responsibility and never a failure in the game mechanics.
      Sorry, let me fix that, this whole situation has a huge flaw implemented in the game mechanics.

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      We consider hideouts a strategic asset, and to me there is nothing more important in terms of establishing presence.

      This phrase of yours is completely demonstrative of what shows a huge flaw in the game since the queen.
      The fact that ALL guilds manage to have more than one or two hideouts makes the whole game a huge power projection and with that comes all the mistakes of the past that Queen was trying to avoid.


      11 hideouts!?
      This is completely absurd and if you have difficulties in maintaining all this, the responsibility is only yours, because you took one step more than you could.


      I really believe that the hideouts situation should be completely revised.
      Only one or two hideouts per guild.
      All guilds should have an obligation to be active (with an obligation of at least 50% of their characters to be forced to make the Daily to keep the hideout, otherwise the hideout would increase 50% in their daily maintenance cost) to be able to maintain the hideouts, so we don't have ghost guilds giving access to third parties just for one more hideout.
      In fact, all hideouts should only be accessed by Alliance members and never open to the public.


      Another point that I completely agree with you is the fact that we no longer have areas outside the map and you indicate very well

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      If SBI added zones on the other side of the portal, the large alliances wouldnt contest.

      as this would positively separate the differences between the forces of the game.
    • LordSilva wrote:

      First of all I understand well what it is to manage a guild and the financial difficulties that this entails.

      However, I consider that the fact that you have a super high expense in relation to infrastructures and everything is your responsibility and never a failure in the game mechanics.
      Sorry, let me fix that, this whole situation has a huge flaw implemented in the game mechanics.

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      We consider hideouts a strategic asset, and to me there is nothing more important in terms of establishing presence.
      This phrase of yours is completely demonstrative of what shows a huge flaw in the game since the queen.
      The fact that ALL guilds manage to have more than one or two hideouts makes the whole game a huge power projection and with that comes all the mistakes of the past that Queen was trying to avoid.

      11 hideouts!?
      This is completely absurd and if you have difficulties in maintaining all this, the responsibility is only yours, because you took one step more than you could.

      I really believe that the hideouts situation should be completely revised.
      Only one or two hideouts per guild.
      All guilds should have an obligation to be active (with an obligation of at least 50% of their characters to be forced to make the Daily to keep the hideout, otherwise the hideout would increase 50% in their daily maintenance cost) to be able to maintain the hideouts, so we don't have ghost guilds giving access to third parties just for one more hideout.
      In fact, all hideouts should only be accessed by Alliance members and never open to the public.

      Another point that I completely agree with you is the fact that we no longer have areas outside the map and you indicate very well

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      If SBI added zones on the other side of the portal, the large alliances wouldnt contest.
      as this would positively separate the differences between the forces of the game.
      Why is it when people who have any idea to contrast the situation they always have another suggestion of some breach or the atrocity is waaaay beyond the original intent so we need to implement something more restrictive than the consideration of the actual possibility without a malignant intent. You;re legitimately one of the most painful types discrimination to actually deal with, it simply not an obligation for anyone to do anything, so why stop there. . . .

      Guilds are expensive, I have maybe 200* dollars in my guild already, what is that, if every Royal City contains 200-300 players with have 1200 players online at any given time, and no one contributes, it is perfectly legitimate part of the game play to do these available types of gameplay
    • Madhe wrote:

      is there any response to this, I am a newer player but 200 real dollars is kind of punishing for guild operations...
      no one is forced to spend money on the game, if doing it is a player's option, if something is limiting your expansion after a certain level, maybe you are stretching the abilities of the group and you should stop.

      But then there are always those who always want more and are retarded just to the point of stretching, stretching until one day they wake up, and everything they've done goes down the drain.

      It's like earning little, but wanting to eat caviar and ride a Ferrari every day.