Make Taxing silver bags a option for guilds

    • Make Taxing silver bags a option for guilds

      There is no logic argument that explains why purses should be exempt from guild silver tax.

      If a player dont like it, try to change how your guild makes money or find a guild that suits you.
      If a guild dont like it, just dont turn it on.

      Its easy to turn off, but only the devs can turn it on.

      There is no gameplay reason for it not to be there, and it would be the biggest QOL feature SBI could make to help guild administration.

      try and make a flowchart on current ingame value streams, and see how they correspond to guild expenses. Its massively off, simple as that.

      /F
    • Hey there,

      we discussed this internally and decided against this.

      The main reason is that it would provide individual players an incentive to dodge such a tax by saving up silver bags for a long time and then leaving their guild before cashing them. We felt that providing such an incentive would be bad for game as it would give rise to guild internal conflict and a higher churn rate of guild members - not good in a social game such as Albion. Even if the feature was optional, we think that either most guilds would turn it off or those who don't would still be subject to the above issue, which on average would still have negative effect on the game as a whole.

      We also don't think that such a feature is necessary for guilds. They can compensate the fact that silver bags are not taxed by simply using a higher guild tax rate - in the end it should come down to the same thing more or less, but without the above mentioned problems.
    • Korn wrote:

      They can compensate the fact that silver bags are not taxed by simply using a higher guild tax rate - in the end it should come down to the same thing more or less, but without the above mentioned problems.
      When human beings see a large number next to a % symbol and the word tax. They lose their minds. I don't really think it is as simple as you are making it sound at all.

      When silver bags arrived and weren't included under taxes, it instantly meant that all guilds needed to be run through non-system forms of support. So now, instead of having no overhead, if you want to expand your guild substantialy, and need help funding that. You now need to enter into an effort to develop and implement some sort of logistical and economic network.

      Which, while it sounds fun to me, may not appeal to a lot of people.

      --

      If silver bags didn't exist, the game would be better. I have a hard time understanding how creating this item, that is completely miserable to deal with in every way, was of any benefit to the game.

      Why aren't people just given silver? What is the functional difference between crediting their silver balance by 1000 silver, and instead giving them a game item that they have to click incessantly to derive any value at all.

      It's also weird that you don't allow them to be traded on the markets. I am pretty sure you could sink a lot of silver letting people sell them on the market for 900 silver, and forcing someone else to get carpal tunnel clicking them off. Collecting 4.5% the whole time.

      Edit: If I am coming across as rabidly anti-silver bag. It's because I am. Every time I get one, or look at one, my first thought is just. "Why am I being punished for no reason in this video game." It's another instance of where SBI thinks they are giving you a reward, and in reality you are just being given a nuisance to deal with. I quit fame farming in SRDs in large part because of the silver bags. I kept stacking them up and putting them in my bank, but then there were so many of them they were getting in the way, and so I had to move them somewhere else. I am not even sure where they are any longer, or if I just sucked it up and clicked them off. The fact that they essentially destroyed the guild tax system by implementing them is just a symptom of the problem that is their existence. If I find out that the reason they exist is that someone thought they sounded fun, I will probably have to go sit down for a bit.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Piddle ().

    • Thanks for answering Korn but it makes no sense.

      the only feasible answer is that you want to try and disincentivise large guild operations.
      That is fair, but then you should say that.

      i am pretty sure that you have not spend a second on looking at guild expenses contra guild incomes, and you cannot have made a cash flow chart for high end guilds.

      we have a 25% tax which many would consider high, and that provides 32 million A week, and for a guild economy that is nothing.
      even if we had 100% tax it would be less than half of the expenses even if noone would leave us due to that tax.

      you are creating a system where top tier guilds actively needs to find single rich benefactors paying thousands of rl dollars to find a competing guild and thats not what albion should be.
      Rumor is that SBI is listening to swiper funded guilds, but i refuse to believe this is true.
      I will gladly share our guild budget or whatever talks needed to give you insights in the financial side of albion, but you guys either deliveberatly drain guilds oR you have no idea of guild economy.

      i dont care how really, but guilds have to have a income. You have removed guild income, but you havemt made anything that creates a decent way for guilds to generate cash.

      you are dead wrong in saying that guilds would turn it off, and you cannot for a second talk about guild qol options, when you force manual payment systems incentivising excell gaming over actually playing the game.

      how can you have guild economy calls and still totally ignore the fact that you have removed guild income and added nothing in return?.

      honestly, nothing in your answer makes sense.

      /F

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Sinatra.SUN ().

    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      we discussed this internally and decided against this.

      The main reason is that it would provide individual players an incentive to dodge such a tax by saving up silver bags for a long time and then leaving their guild before cashing them. We felt that providing such an incentive would be bad for game as it would give rise to guild internal conflict and a higher churn rate of guild members - not good in a social game such as Albion. Even if the feature was optional, we think that either most guilds would turn it off or those who don't would still be subject to the above issue, which on average would still have negative effect on the game as a whole.

      We also don't think that such a feature is necessary for guilds. They can compensate the fact that silver bags are not taxed by simply using a higher guild tax rate - in the end it should come down to the same thing more or less, but without the above mentioned problems.
      the argument of "later opening" just lacks any imagination.

      You could for example deduct the tax already by collection of the bag..

      If I take 4x10 k out of the reward chest I somehow know, that is 40 k.... If tax is 25% by taking the 4x10k it could be autodefucted and u end up with 3x10k. The bags cannot be looted from pvp anyway, so what hinders you to deduct tax.


      If u don't want it ..okay

      But creating strange obstacles of guild leave dynamic ..welp!
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      we discussed this internally and decided against this.

      The main reason is that it would provide individual players an incentive to dodge such a tax by saving up silver bags for a long time and then leaving their guild before cashing them. We felt that providing such an incentive would be bad for game as it would give rise to guild internal conflict and a higher churn rate of guild members - not good in a social game such as Albion. Even if the feature was optional, we think that either most guilds would turn it off or those who don't would still be subject to the above issue, which on average would still have negative effect on the game as a whole.

      We also don't think that such a feature is necessary for guilds. They can compensate the fact that silver bags are not taxed by simply using a higher guild tax rate - in the end it should come down to the same thing more or less, but without the above mentioned problems.
      1. If someone is so disloyal to a guild he would drop a guild to dodge a bit of taxing on a bag the same person would leave guild if taxes are increased so that point is kinda off in my opinion.

      2. If you made silver drops auto picked up, the taxing of silver drops might be a valid point but a lot of people even with low taxes don't drop as singular piles are pretty low amounts (if we don't think HCE / 5x shrine buff).

      3. I wouldn't mind personally paying tax on the bags, it makes sense they would be included. But considering to abide by TOS i would have to open them by hand? Really still no open all button ?
    • Perhaps they should just give all the silver to your guild, so people would be completely dependent on said guild for everything.

      Lets add guild market tax too. Guilds should get a cut of that. And resources. If you go out and gather, guilds should get a cut.
      Guilds should also get all your dropped loot, so they can disperse it to those they find most in need.

      /sarcasm off

      tl;dr This would be a bad idea., as guilds already take too much (in my opinion) for what you get back out of them. If your guild needs more money, figure out a way to do it
      with guild objectives, or 100% tax days where you fame farm as a guild or something. I don't mind contributing, but I would
      like to play the game for enjoyment, not to support greedy guild leaders.
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      we discussed this internally and decided against this.

      The main reason is that it would provide individual players an incentive to dodge such a tax by saving up silver bags for a long time and then leaving their guild before cashing them. We felt that providing such an incentive would be bad for game as it would give rise to guild internal conflict and a higher churn rate of guild members - not good in a social game such as Albion. Even if the feature was optional, we think that either most guilds would turn it off or those who don't would still be subject to the above issue, which on average would still have negative effect on the game as a whole.

      We also don't think that such a feature is necessary for guilds. They can compensate the fact that silver bags are not taxed by simply using a higher guild tax rate - in the end it should come down to the same thing more or less, but without the above mentioned problems.
      Can there be an option to just pay a weekly due? I know a lot of guilds that use that system and it's pretty fair over-all.
    • OceanSpirit wrote:

      Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      we discussed this internally and decided against this.

      The main reason is that it would provide individual players an incentive to dodge such a tax by saving up silver bags for a long time and then leaving their guild before cashing them. We felt that providing such an incentive would be bad for game as it would give rise to guild internal conflict and a higher churn rate of guild members - not good in a social game such as Albion. Even if the feature was optional, we think that either most guilds would turn it off or those who don't would still be subject to the above issue, which on average would still have negative effect on the game as a whole.

      We also don't think that such a feature is necessary for guilds. They can compensate the fact that silver bags are not taxed by simply using a higher guild tax rate - in the end it should come down to the same thing more or less, but without the above mentioned problems.
      Can there be an option to just pay a weekly due? I know a lot of guilds that use that system and it's pretty fair over-all.

      I support this idea
    • Would work for me as well, technically a tribute system for players.
      We have that today, and its a lot of excell gaming and a ton of admin for 435 players.

      In many ways its a better system than silver tax, since silver tax only taxes pve'ers while the professions that really makes money go free.

      so a daily,weekly or monthly tribute system would be welcome as well.


      Ps.
      If the argument from players is that they dont want to support greedy guild leaders, then why be in those guilds in the first place? There are tens of thousands of guilds out there, and you can even make one yourself. Dont dictate how others are playing, thats a core sandbox foundation.
    • Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      Would work for me as well, technically a tribute system for players.
      We have that today, and its a lot of excell gaming and a ton of admin for 435 players.

      In many ways its a better system than silver tax, since silver tax only taxes pve'ers while the professions that really makes money go free.

      so a daily,weekly or monthly tribute system would be welcome as well.


      Ps.
      If the argument from players is that they dont want to support greedy guild leaders, then why be in those guilds in the first place? There are tens of thousands of guilds out there, and you can even make one yourself. Dont dictate how others are playing, thats a core sandbox foundation.
      Yet you want to impose a tax on silver bags, which is dictating (by forcing tax) on how others are playing...?


      I can do what you did too! Just ask your guildies for money, and/or raise taxes to suit your playstyle, instead of asking the devs for a change to the system.

      There's even already a way to do this!
      Images
      • guildtax.png

        106.92 kB, 808×609, viewed 34 times

      The post was edited 2 times, last by MysticDream ().

    • MysticDream wrote:

      Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      Would work for me as well, technically a tribute system for players.
      We have that today, and its a lot of excell gaming and a ton of admin for 435 players.

      In many ways its a better system than silver tax, since silver tax only taxes pve'ers while the professions that really makes money go free.

      so a daily,weekly or monthly tribute system would be welcome as well.


      Ps.
      If the argument from players is that they dont want to support greedy guild leaders, then why be in those guilds in the first place? There are tens of thousands of guilds out there, and you can even make one yourself. Dont dictate how others are playing, thats a core sandbox foundation.
      Yet you want to impose a tax on silver bags, which is dictating (by forcing tax) on how others are playing...?

      I can do what you did too! Just ask your guildies for money, and/or raise taxes to suit your playstyle, instead of asking the devs for a change to the system.

      There's even already a way to do this!
      The problem with taxes is that it directly hits one type of player, people that PVE fame farm. If there are people who spend the majority of their time crafting or gathering or market flipping, they will essentially make a lot of money and contribute nothing.
    • Well, that is 20 lines of code and 2 hours gui coding

      You take the same mechanic as Respec fame silver drain

      Everything gathered creates gathering fame, now u drain silver for anything gathered and put a yes no button and a silver per fame slider

      Regarding money making by flipping, that is a financial transaction I would not tax it.
    • Sinatra.SUN wrote:

      Would work for me as well, technically a tribute system for players.
      We have that today, and its a lot of excell gaming and a ton of admin for 435 players.

      In many ways its a better system than silver tax, since silver tax only taxes pve'ers while the professions that really makes money go free.

      so a daily,weekly or monthly tribute system would be welcome as well.


      Ps.
      If the argument from players is that they dont want to support greedy guild leaders, then why be in those guilds in the first place? There are tens of thousands of guilds out there, and you can even make one yourself. Dont dictate how others are playing, thats a core sandbox foundation.
      No, we against exactly the potato farm guild, with they greedy leaders.

      Like if the guild taxes will not affect the players less 20mil pve fame for example, there is no problem, this players already understand how taxes work, and can decide if they guild give em anough benefits and the taxes of it is ok for them.

      But potato guilds, who take all silver from new players, harm the game, game got less new players, coth new players can not understand why all money is taxed, and can easily leave the game coth of that.

      Why its a problem for a game? Game making money for SBI, and SBI need that money to pay staff, servers, make development and BUY new players.

      So if SBI buy ADs to get new players, this money should return. If players who they buy, just dont like the game and not play and pay - its ok.
      But if alot of players try to get silver from potato guilds, it is reduce the conversion of AD, so AD costs is get bigger, so less money for stuff and development, less updates and content for all.

      So personally me, dont care if top players got 100% tax on any ingame item they collect in guilds, they can play as they like, and they can chose guild to play. Its not the point.

      But this feature should not affect new players, and should not let the stupid abusers waste SBI money for they shit. I dont like to get less content and wait for updates for 6 month coth of it.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by iRawr ().

    • Hollywoodi wrote:

      Well, that is 20 lines of code and 2 hours gui coding

      You take the same mechanic as Respec fame silver drain

      Everything gathered creates gathering fame, now u drain silver for anything gathered and put a yes no button and a silver per fame slider

      Regarding money making by flipping, that is a financial transaction I would not tax it.

      So.... encourage people to transfer silver to alts?

      What happens if the player doesn't have enough silver. Should they be unable to gather any more?

      This idea might even be worse than taxing silver bags.

      20 lines of code and 2 hours gui coding....