Wispering bow E - Rework Suggestion

    • Wispering bow E - Rework Suggestion

      Hello,

      Here some ideas of rework for whispering bow E - Undead arrow. Although imo the main issue of auto-attack builds are the crasy long standtime for each autos, SBI seems to be completely ok to let auto-attack builds irrelevant (unless carried by stupid broken gimmick), i've decide to change my approach of making auto-attack build really interresing. So here we are

      Objective of those suggestion
      - Having wispering to be unique on his way and not a worst version of normal bow
      - Adding depth to this spell (example optimising dps with good placement)
      - Adding relevancy from solo to small scale (up to 20v20) PvP
      - Making a real viable auto-attack build that is not carried by gimmick


      Suggestion °1 (Imo the best suggestion atm)

      For 8s, you gain an extra 5m range and your auto-attacks will pierce through every ennemies that comes accros their path dealing 50.00 magical damage. Your auto-attack will always go to maximum range.
      (CD, evergy cost unchanged, missle speed will go A from B instant)

      4 scenarios below


      Suggestion n°2 (A possibility but doesn't fit well the bow's theme)

      For 8s, you gain an extra 30% range and your auto-attacks will apply a ghastly arrow stack on the target. After 8s the stacks are consumed and you deal 200.00 magic damage + 30.00 magic damage per stack (no limit on stacks).
      (CD, energy cost unchanged)

      Scenario 1 : Full auto on one dude (10 autos) => 200 + (30*10) = 500 magic damage
      Scenario 2 : 2 Targets, target A (7 autos) Target B (3 autos) => Target A 200 + (30*7) = 410 magic damage / Target B 200 + (30*3) = 290 magic damage
      Scenario 3 : 10 Targets, each of them gets 1 auto => Each target 200 + (30*1) = 230 magic damage

      Up to suggestion, instructive criticism, good feedback. I'll come prolly with new suggestions later on.


      Suggestion n°3 (A good one adapted from @Vesen suggestion)


      A self-buff which increases your Auto-Attack range by 35%. While active,
      each Auto-Attack also deals an additional 50.00 Magical damage.

      CD : 5s
      Cast time : Toggle (duration 15s)
      Energy cost : 0 (4 per auto-attack)
      Range : self

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Owlsane ().

    • 1. Technically not viable, too many calculations. Combined with Albion poor basic attack system it would be even worse.

      2. Not in "whispering" theme, overused stack and nuke approach. And it's really weak, shitty-curse-tier weak.

      For example with other weapons in game make something unique in gameplay and in same time interesting and balanced

      Toggle skill so not completely useless.
      Reducing damage debuff applied with long duration on target, separate damage buff with same duration for user on target hit during toggle duration.
      So purge is still a good counter, but doesn't ruin it like guardian ruins curse. Reflect is also a great counter, as well as invisibility and distance breaking.

      Skill toggle itself provides increasing range per hit and increased maybe doubled mana cost for all skills so kiting forever is not an option.
      Movement slow for caster during duration and after toggle is over short movement speed boost to compensate.

      Duration for toggle portion is short so no way to get to full potentional damage after first use, reapplication of de/buffs is supposed mechanic implying staying in combat range, inconsistent and high at peak attack range allows easier target switching, dealing with running away targets and with movement de/buff helps with tower-like gameplay and in same time deactivating toggle messes up stacked debuffs.

      As for numbers:
      Toggle duration 7 sec, reactivation cd 5 sec, caster movement slow 30% for entire duration, 20% movement speed buff for 3 sec, attack range up to what is is now but even increase over 6 or 7 attacks.

      Damage debuff 1% per attack, 15 stacks 7 sec duration.

      Damage buff is flat magic damage added type, damage_dealt_per_minute about the same as warbow or about a bit less (up to -25% less than warbow at full stacks since warbow require accuracy from player), 10 stacks, 7 sec duration.

      Slow during toggle on attack < or = 10%, 1-2 sec duration, can be used with bows, but with mana problems caused by doubled mana costs, it would limit it's use allowing weird combinations like mana pots.

      Filling offensive support role for bows, fitting theme of whispers by "looming over" or building advantage, not strong enough in other niches like pve or zvz so not messing with artifact value order.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Vesen ().

    • Vesen wrote:

      1. Technically not viable, too many calculations. Combined with Albion poor basic attack system it would be even worse.
      I don't buy this argument for multiples reasons : Explosive shot is a clear example of it, any skill shot like deadly shot/piercing bolt work around the same concept as mine.

      What they have to code is :
      -The basic attack missle animation change to Deadly arrow missle animation
      -The missle direction and angle is based from users and target position.
      -The missle is a 18m long aoe line with a width of let's say 2-3m (up to change)
      -The missle speed is defined as infinite (or as fast as deadly shot/piercing bolt)
      -Everything in the aoe, target or not, recieve the damage

      Now aside from coding stuff i want to know ur true opinion of this suggestion

      Vesen wrote:

      2. Not in "whispering" theme, overused stack and nuke approach. And it's really weak, shitty-curse-tier weak.
      That's also my opinion in the theme matter and this is the reason if i have to chose i would go for the 1st suggestion.

      Damage wise you're wrong, it will nuke as much as a 4 stack 1h curse E (537.03 for curse vs 10arrow wisper E 500.00) and even more. How? Simple you are unlimited in the amount of stacks, there is no cap. Basically the more attack speed you have, the greater the nuke. 16 arrows (that's with 2.00 AS) = 680.00 magic damage // 25 arrows (Hunter jacket+morg cape+AS passive build = 3.2 AS) = 950.00 magic damage that is almost double the damage of curse E 4 stack nuke damage. Also don't forget as i explained in the scenarios that hitting multiples targets during the buff timer making in the end aoe damage somethig 1h Curse E cannot do.

      Vesen wrote:


      Toggle skill so not completely useless.
      Reducing damage debuff applied with long duration on target, separate damage buff with same duration for user on target hit during toggle duration.
      So purge is still a good counter, but doesn't ruin it like guardian ruins curse. Reflect is also a great counter, as well as invisibility and distance breaking.

      Skill toggle itself provides increasing range per hit and increased maybe doubled mana cost for all skills so kiting forever is not an option.
      Movement slow for caster during duration and after toggle is over short movement speed boost to compensate.

      Duration for toggle portion is short so no way to get to full potentional damage after first use, reapplication of de/buffs is supposed mechanic implying staying in combat range, inconsistent and high at peak attack range allows easier target switching, dealing with running away targets and with movement de/buff helps with tower-like gameplay and in same time deactivating toggle messes up stacked debuffs.

      As for numbers:
      Toggle duration 7 sec, reactivation cd 5 sec, caster movement slow 30% for entire duration, 20% movement speed buff for 3 sec, attack range up to what is is now but even increase over 6 or 7 attacks.

      Damage debuff 1% per attack, 15 stacks 7 sec duration.

      Damage buff is flat magic damage added type, damage_dealt_per_minute about the same as warbow or about a bit less (up to -25% less than warbow at full stacks since warbow require accuracy from player), 10 stacks, 7 sec duration.

      Slow during toggle on attack < or = 10%, 1-2 sec duration, can be used with bows, but with mana problems caused by doubled mana costs, it would limit it's use allowing weird combinations like mana pots.

      Filling offensive support role for bows, fitting theme of whispers by "looming over" or building advantage, not strong enough in other niches like pve or zvz so not messing with artifact value order.
      I thought it was multiple different suggestion so i was very confused and it's not digest at all to read but if i understood your suggestion :

      5s CD toggle spell that stays up for 7s. 30% slow during the buff, after buff 20% movespeed buff for 3s, debuff where each spell you use during this the buff is doubled, but i don't get this damage debuff of 1% per attack it's for the target or it's a self debuff?

      For the cooldown and toggle : Toggle was one of my main ideas 2 years ago when wispering was even worse than now, although i would love the toogle atribute on wispering, i hate your suggestion because i have no reason at all to untoggle the spell, basically your version puts wispering on a 12s cd and even less with omelette. Plus the mana sugestion, you can completely exploit the system. I'll come later to this matter.
      The slow debuff during buff time and speed buff after : I'm completely against it because the standtime on auto-attacks are already working as a "slow" for us. The more attack speed you get the lesser distance between autos you travel up to a point that you will almost be immobile with morgana cape or hunter jacket. Unless SBI comes and reduce drastically the standtime on auto-attack, this debuff has no reason at all to be implemented.
      The mana consuption : If i read well during the buff time all your spells will see their energy consuption doubled? No problemo i untoggle, frost shot to kite and Q then i repop E and i do only auto-damage. To much exploit on that. I would rather put a mana consuption for each auto-attack during that buff timer
      Damage debuff : If it applied on the user then NO it does already weak damage the way it is. If applied on the target then why not

      With what i've said i have a variant of you proposition.


      A self-buff which increases your Auto-Attack range by 35%. While active, each Auto-Attack also deals an additional 50.00 Magical damage.

      CD : 5s
      Cast time : Toggle (duration 15s)
      Energy cost : 0 (4 per auto-attack)
      Range : self

      Toggle : duration might be long in your opinion but i would compare frost Q damage and in the end it's ok. If purged you just have to wait 5s and you're good to go again. So you're not that much useless vs a purge comp
      Mana cost : Each auto-attack consume as much energy than frost bolt. After 4 autos your energy consuption already overtakes the energy consuption from the current E. If you full auto during 15s non stop with the bow attack speed that makes 19 autos = 76 energy which is 5.5 times greater than the current E (14 energy). This version you cannot avoid huge mana consuption unless you don't auto.
      Damage debuf : i would remove that completely
    • Owlsane wrote:

      1. I don't buy this argument for multiples reasons : Explosive shot is a clear example of it, any skill shot like deadly shot/piercing bolt work around the same concept as mine.What they have to code is :
      -The basic attack missle animation change to Deadly arrow missle animation

      2. I thought it was multiple different suggestion so i was very confused and it's not digest at all to read but if i understood your suggestion
      1. Auto-attacks do not work like casts.
      Projectiles of ranged weapons are only visuals, the difference bewteen ranged and melee is only in range required.
      If target doesn't stand still, it won't be straight line assuming projectile duration stays. Calculating every time a curved line, checking for objects, while making it essentially aoe skill is just too bad of an idea, even games like PoE avoid it.
      AOE on path of long distance basic attack means there will be constant creation of new forms of aoe effects.
      Currently there is no skills like that.

      2. Perhaps I phrased it wrong, I meant:
      Caster use skill, getting slowed down for duration of toggle, gain extra range buff, applies basic attack, gains flat damage buff on hit, duration of toggle ends, caster gain movement speed buff.
      Target gains stackable reduced damage debuff as it takes damage.

      Why slow and damage boost? Standing still tower problem and it can be used to make caster vulnerable to enemy aoe casts like heavy cleave. In same time bows are supposed to be mobile so ms boost is for catching up rather than escaping, a viable only after slowing down.
      Mana cost increase is better because it implies leaving use of items for duration of toggle. With about 300 mana using 100 at only for chest piece skill is risky to say the least, fine as emergency, but not in normal situation for example farming. Character doesn't dry out of mana just because it killed one mob with it, dmg buff is reapplable for farming and mana use is generally low.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Vesen ().

    • Owlsane wrote:

      For 8s, you gain an extra 5m range and your auto-attacks will pierce through every ennemies that comes accros their path dealing 50.00 magical damage. Your auto-attack will always go to maximum range.
      (CD, evergy cost unchanged, missle speed will go A from B instant)

      Vesen wrote:

      If target doesn't stand still, it won't be straight line assuming projectile duration stays. Calculating every time a curved line, checking for objects, while making it essentially aoe skill is just too bad of an idea, even games like PoE avoid it.AOE on path of long distance basic attack means there will be constant creation of new forms of aoe effects.
      Currently there is no skills like that.
      ???

      If it goes instant the game does just need to calculate the direction once. I don't see the problem. Also here a game that has already done that for auto-attack. Again not an argument.

      Otherwise without missle speed isntant it's the same concept. When action is launched, games calculate the direction from A(user) to B(Target) then makes a vector that trigers damage to everybody that touches it and target gets automatically the damage anyway, no need curby shit gimmick just enough missle speed to be smooth and that's it.

      Vesen wrote:

      2. Perhaps I phrased it wrong, I meant:
      Caster use skill, getting slowed down for duration of toggle, gain extra range buff, applies basic attack, gains flat damage buff on hit, duration of toggle ends, caster gain movement speed buff.
      Target gains stackable reduced damage debuff as it takes damage.

      Why slow and damage boost? Standing still tower problem and it can be used to make caster vulnerable to enemy aoe casts like heavy cleave. In same time bows are supposed to be mobile so ms boost is for catching up rather than escaping, a viable only after slowing down.
      Mana cost increase is better because it implies leaving use of items for duration of toggle. With about 300 mana using 100 at only for chest piece skill is risky to say the least, fine as emergency, but not in normal situation for example farming. Character doesn't dry out of mana just because it killed one mob with it, dmg buff is reapplable for farming and mana use is generally low.
      "Caster use skill, getting slowed down for duration of toggle, gain extra range buff, applies basic attack, gains flat damage buff on hit, duration of toggle ends, caster gain movement speed buff."

      Ok so you confirmed what i understoof and again wispering don't need a slow debuff during the toggle as each auto-attack makes you immobile for 0.4s. Have 2.0 attack speed and you're imobile 0.8s per second which basically makes you a turret. Slow debuff is turbobad.


      "Mana cost increase is better because it implies leaving use of items for duration of toggle. With about 300 mana using 100 at only for chest piece skill is risky to say the least, fine as emergency, but not in normal situation for example farming. Character doesn't dry out of mana just because it killed one mob with it, dmg buff is reapplable for farming and mana use is generally low."

      Doesn't change the fact that it's completely avoidable by just untoggle the E spell before and voila you use the needed spells with normal energy cost and you proc back your E. This is why i suggested consuming energy each auto-attack instead.