Spears

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    • Hello. I've been playing Albion for around three years, quit and came back recently. I used to play claymore, bloodletter, and a couple other open world builds and had great success often winning most fights, even outnumbered. This was post graveguard/cleric robe nerf (just switch to hunterhood lol), too but dominated around that time, as well.

      I came back to try something new as I wanted something interesting and I have noticed one line that is underplayed vastly: spears. I see no one running them open world and no one in town dueling with them, no one using them in zvz, or anything. I think they are 'ok' for the most part but I read up and they recently got an Inner Focus nerf which seems to have heavily hit them. I think that spears need some love in some form (not more AA dmg, AA dmg is very unoriginal and not interesting, 1h dagger is king of auto attack, attack speed builds). I was hoping that we could see a small revision to the Inner Focus nerf now that they are very uncompetitive.

      All of the heron spear's damage abilities are skillshots while using inner focus as 'W' for example besides auto-attacking. While not crazily difficult to pull off, it can be juked and every build has some sort of built in mobility unlike the past where it counter-acts the slows given by the spear-user. It should feel very rewarding to land an 'E' which it does not as the target is not stunned nearly the time it says and the dmg is relatively low compared to other 'E's that are not skillshots.

      I believe a neutral buff to Heron, at least, would be to buff the 'E' when landing from a distance rather than sitting up close point blank firing (no skill). As for the other spears, I think a small revision should be paid to Inner Focus as spears should be 'hit-and-run' not 'hit-and-get-outrun'. If you feel that I am wrong, please try them out in game vs people in equal gear, IP, etc, and let me know your results.

      Thank you.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Sythe ().

    • Hi! To contribute to this thread as a spear mainly player, I have tried all of them and play regularly with them.

      As you say, spears at the moment are not in great shape, they basically do not excel in any particular facet of the game. I agree with the nerf they did on Inner focus, basically it allowed players to just not get risk, because it gave so much mobility that basically you couldn't get killed unless cornered and perma CCed which should not happen (Hello Undead cape + Demon boots!) because if you can reliably scape it means you are cheating at the "more risk more reward" rule and it's only reward. So, in my point of view, buffing inner focus would not be a good idea (maybe slightly), I think mobility skills should be kept in check or design them in a way they do not allow bypassing the risk (such as dashing to an opponent so it only allows to close in, not to get way, if there are skills that give great mobility then they should only do that, so no damage, no buffs, just mobility, this is my opinion)

      So, in order to set a ground to discuss about spears, let's see what's the state of each spear?

      Spear

      It's the best spear probably (debatable with Pike), jack of all trades master of none like. So you can do 1v1/2v2 and PVE at a good level, not great, but good enough. You can only fight kiting, because it lacks burst it had with the old inner focus, even now it's one of the weapons with greatest mobility due to E and a lot of slows (Autoattack passive, Q, and Cripple/Impaler as W).Tbh I would not change anything on this one at the moment.

      Pike

      Ok, this one is good only for small cale PVP (again) 1v1, 2v2, one shot build, super gimmicky (I am not a big fan of one shot builds). Basically charge Q, royal hood, assasin jacket, run to your target, hit with E, trigger infernal cape, and see how your target dies. Generally I would say this build should not exist, but it is only usable in very few content (such as diving or 2v2 HG), so lot of people will defend it is alright. Still, it feels super bad to play against it (I have found ppl running 2x in HG), it is a really bad experience.

      Glaive

      Ok, in my point of vew this one is not good for anything, if someone thinks it is good for something, please explain me for what and why.

      Heron


      So the E as a long range aoe stun is something I like, I feel it's well balanced since it super complicate to land it in a way it's meaningful (not only skill-wise but also mechanicall-wise), but still when it lands you can see it matters. Even the skill being teorethically good, the sad truth is that it's not good for any specific content, maybe can see play on ganking, but there are just better and more reliable options for it even among the spears.

      Spirit hunter

      This one is good for group ganking, it basically disable people to get away from your group together with gravekeeper. It's bad for anything else than group ganking and it's bad on it's own.


      Trinity

      This one is also non usable, the aoe attack speed buff is somehow good for PVE I guess but there are much better options and it being a melee weapon does not help to make it usable since you will have to decide between doing damage with it or buffing ranged weapons. Also, it is very easy bad for PVP because it is so easy to get away of it and hard to land on moving targets. It is good to scape from ganks I guess since the jump makes you inmune while it lasts and you get a slight speed buff when landing.


      So as you can see most of spears are just not good (or not good enough).
      My main complain on spears at the moment would be how limited is the content you can do with them, like they are only okeish on 1v1, maybe 2v2 and group ganking.
      If someone disagrees I'd like to be counter argumented, but if we talk evidence, go check meta snapshots based on data and you will see the spear is bad atm.

      So, what would I suggest to do? (It's hard for me to see what's the spot designers had in mind for spears atm)
      - Rework Q spirit spear, I mean the range increase is a cool thing and very tematic with spears but the ability itself is just boring and the range is meaningless when this ability is only used to trigger a one shot build... reworking this would also make one shot pike less viable, which it's something I would recommend.
      - Is the W reflect skill used? If not (I would say it's not) I would substitute the reflect W ability for something that either helps to make builds which allow content such as GvG or ZvZ (I would prefer the latter).
      - Buff to Cripple for sure and Impaler maybe, go with small buff and adjust from there.
      - Glaive E needs a rework, it might be as simple as make it AOE and displace a bunch of people or a complete rework. But definetly I would try to make it so that it allows spear users to play new content.
      - Heron spear needs a slight buff, problem is with this kind of stuns it's complicated. If you ask me I would try to make it work as impaler, I think that would maybe do it playable in ZvZ content. It might be too much tough.
      - Trinity E, super hard, if the goal of this weapon is PVE I would say make the area bigger even if it means making it do less damage....It will probably make it better for small scale PvP aswell I guess, but now it's so far of being average that I don't think it would be a huge change.

      This is my opinion and I hope it contributed somehow.
    • Thanks for your input from a long time spear player, and yes while I agree inner focus is a touchy topic, I think spears need serious attention. I won't even play them right now because of how bad off they are. I personally would love to play heron if E had more damage which would make it viable open world, spirit hunter is fine and has a niche use, glaive needs reworked E, pike is pike, 1h is probably fine, trinity is quite garbage and I don't like the 'E' at all.

      I like the idea of a melee kiter or throwing a spear with a very thin skillshot and rewards for landing that skillshot. I do like your idea for glaive, and spirit spear rework; reflect is lackluster and I don't see it used very often. I like a lot of your ideas but I do not want to see heron mechanics changed as there are very few long range skillshots in albion and I like these a lot.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Sythe ().

    • kheeta wrote:

      Glaive need full E rework
      1h need to boost E after that huge mobility nerf(now it’s completely dead because it couldn’t either deal dmg or kite)
      Maybe all spears Es should not cleanse stucks
      I think all spears need their 'E' adjusted. No stack loss on glaive E + can fling 3-5 people within range, 1h E more dmg per stack, Heron E more dmg or 20s cd (current is 25s cd), spirit hunter is ok as it does serve a purpose, trinity E rework to something much better.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Sythe ().

    • I like the idea of not losing stacks when using Es, it would increase overall damage and consistency of spears and it is easy counterable by purge. Also considering all spears need buff (maybe 1H spear being the exception) I think is good to buff mechanics/skills that buff all of them.
      For Heron I would go first with a CD reduction rather than damage increase, I think Heron should be the GvG spear, and maybe being able to stun more often to initiate fights. If it is not enough, I'd consider damage increase, but tbh a big stun with big damage seems like a bad idea.
      Glaive I think should be designed in a way it is ZvZ viable (I think every weapon should ideally an option for every content: 1v1/2v2, 5v5, ZvZ, PvE and ganking), maybe if the E gets reworked so it does a AOE displacement makes it workable so you go in get the DPS/Healers and pull them to your zerg, maybe it would have to also either root people for small amount of time or clamp everyone caught together so it can be comboed with other tanks for a clap. Also, why there's no tank spear option when it makes all sense temathically?
      Also, I definelty would try to rework at least the reflect W to something more exciting. It could be as easy as to add a final effect on the actual reflect skill so that on ending does some kind of CC around you, so it would allow you to start it, run in to enemies and on finishing it does an AOE around you that applies some CC and/or debuff (for example), it could be with no damage. A full rework for some skill would probably be better, but I see it's more work.
      For trinity I would only make the area bigger, like really big, so that it gives you a big area of fighting advantadge and ensuring it buffs your team mates, you can still get out of it, but not as free as now.The other option would be to make the landing to make super damage, gallatine like, so that you can use it for claps. The later option would be ok since landing the skill is not easy and also using it puts you in danger (since you are closing in to your enemies)
      As you can see I really want a Spear for ZvZ ;).
    • Overall i think Gisenko has a really good view on spears.

      Spear has been my main weapon since game release too. I played 1h spear a lot for solo openworld fighting and ganking but switched away fromt it mostly to Doublebladed.
      I would like to add that for me the W spells are in a bad spot:

      Impaler: Its the most consistent and best option and i would chose it almost always. It adds to the kiting play you have to go for (especially 1h spear), since spears cant trade in straight figths most of the time.

      Inner Focus: Well... its a senstive topic cause it has been the go to spell. I played it too, but not anymore. I think the gains are too small for a 2s channel. It should not be like before the nerf but it needs a slight buff again. the only playstyle it might have is the 1shot pike which is a stupid plastyle. But I refer to Gisenkos first post for a solution. In any other content i would choose impaler.

      Forest of Spears: I dont know about it.... feels like a pve spell... only hardly usable in pvp when combined with some cc of pike or other cc support... but not really superior to impaler if u consider its a channel as well where u cant do anything else.

      Cripple and Deflecting Spin: If u wanna joke around u can play them... Deflecting spin adds a unique defenisve plastyle. But then u can just ignore it and dont do damage while spinning or just use any cc to cancel it. These two spells are just not viable at all.

      Content feels really limited right now with spear, Like gisenko said. They are okeish in 1v1, maybe 2v2 and small scale. But even then... I could just pick a sword and beat the spear up by having a passive movement speed buff on Q + dash on every E which i can not kite as a spear. sad pepe
    • Spears just feel wonky to play in general. The whole poking oriented gameplay with low attack speed just feels off even if the range is nice. Losing energy from keeping stacks at 3 also feels awkward because you either run out of energy or get caught with your pants down if you're dropping stacks.
      W spells are all over the place, although I do like Deflecting Spin a lot and find it to be the best all-around option.
    • Helthros wrote:

      Please show spears some love.

      Put splash dmg on 2nd Q and make keeping stacks slightly more engaging. Would like to see if maybe attacks refresh stacks so you’re not just going oom trying to auto attack or something.
      Yeah, they should change something in the second Q, because it consumes a lot of mana, they could reduce the mana cost, make the stacks decrease instead of disappear when the time ends (Q1 stack, Q2 stacks, Q3stacks, don’t use Q and when the time ends, the stacks go to 2 instead of disappearing) or refresh the stacks when using auto-attack.

      Spells

      Spectral Trident (Trinity spear E)
      Many people will disagree with my proposal, but what if they make the "E" of the trinity spear a buff/debuff spell, creating an area around the caster (like royal jacket) that do the same things the trinity does, but with a small amount of damage for enemies. This would make this spear very good for ZVZ.

      Reckless Charge (1h spear E)
      Reduce the coldown for 15 o 17 seconds and the damage, so the spell is not OP. I think this would be a nice idea because the 1h spear is more a mobility weapon that dmg.

      Fling (Glaive E)
      This will complete change the skill but it could be something like “slash up to 5 enemies in a radius of 180º doing (X) amount of dmg”, this would make this spear good for PVE.

      Cripple (W)
      Cripple could be a buff spell, you use it on yourself and the next auto-attack will do (X)% of DMG and will slow the target for (Y)%

      Deflecting Spin (W)
      Spin your weapon as a shield for (X) seconds, if someone attack you in that time, they will be stunned for (X) amount of time.

      Inner Focus (W)
      "Inner Focus" need a buff: + 15% movement speed (65%total movement speed), or half the channel time (1s), because in terms of mobility this spell don’t worth the time we use to channel it anymore.


      I know some of my suggestions are impossible to introduce in Albion since they are too OP or will change completely the skill, but it’s never bad to dream a bit, right?! XD
    • So for the sake of validating my feelings on the current state of the Spear I went to Albion2d meta snapshot to get a better grasp of what was the current state of the Spear.
      I used that snapshot, because it is based in data. I wanted to scape from opinion and take an objective view, nothing is more objective than data.
      What I found:
      For the sake of comparing it with Spears:
      For ZvZ no spear build in the whole list
      For 10v10 no spear build in the whole list
      For GvG no spear build in the whole list
      For 2v2 no spear build in the whole list
      For 1v1 Spear build on rank 146 and 152, Pike build in rank 71 and that's it.

      I not only went through spears, but actually took all weapon trees and went through them all for the sake of comparing the state of each tree with spears.
      What I found saddens me, Spears are BY FAR the most underrepresented weapon tree on the meta based on data, of all the 1000 slots for every content, spears only cope 4!

      Second worst would be curse represented 16 times and third arcane staffs with 28 representations.
      Also this same ranking is respected in the total score of those builds.

      So, it seem spears are underpowered, or at least players feel like they are because are not using them.
    • Its good to see. The long forgotten glaive gets some love and they seem to be aware of the overall situation with spears right now.
      I dont think NDA notes will fundamentally change anything about spears, except for a support bruiser kind of playstyle with glaive in 5v5s. But its a good start.
      They really should think about the second Q ability tho and also revert some of the nerf on Inner Focus which simply obliterated spears from the world of Albion, considering the statistics from Gisenkos post.
    • Bumping this back since after playing with the new patch for a week I would say the buff has not helped much.
      I don't want to say it had no impact at all because tbh the glaive buff on range + not removig stacks has improved the usability of the glaive in GvG slightly.
      Still spears are nowhere to be seen in meta and are completely underwhelming compared to other weapons that are supposed to fill same roles such as swords, quarterstaff, axes or even hammers.
      I would say a whole rework like the one happening to Arcane or a good buff is in order, otherwise it will take very long to take spears somewhere, because they are far, very far of having a spot.
      I can understand the conservative approach due to Inner focus made the weapon overpowered in 1v1/1vX, but even when inner focus was OP for 1vXing spears remained completely out of meta in all other aspects of the game.
    • I think Owlsane has hit on the weakness of Spears (and Bows) multiple times throughout this forum. Spears and Bows have been designed with heavy auto-attacks in mind, but the stand-time and animation of these attacks makes auto attacks highly unusable. With this, we see that a large part of the kit is not being used because auto-attacks put you more at risk than they reward you. Seeing some kind of change to the auto-attack timers will allow them to be used better, whether inbetween abilities or in frenzied attacks in order to deal dps...

      I think spear abilities are fine and makes sense, I would love to see a fix to their auto-attack issues.