On the Matter of Monopolization

    • Sandbox shouldn't mean corruption rules the day. Even in the real world there are antitrust laws and laws to prevent monopolies.

      It's one thing to buy up as many plots as you can to try to create a monopoly. It's yet another to have your goons mess with a competitor crafting capacity. That's a game design flaw. If someone is anti cartel, and wants to hold out, even if it means low or no profits for them, they should be able to. A true Sandbox would allow an independent to advertise that he is holding the line against cartels. To have people stick with him even if the cartels lower their prices. To be able to sabotage the independent is wrong. That's not sandbox, that's corruption and game design flaw.
    • sandstorm22 wrote:

      A true Sandbox would allow an independent to advertise that he is holding the line against cartels. To have people stick with him even if the cartels lower their prices. To be able to sabotage the independent is wrong. That's not sandbox, that's corruption and game design flaw.
      So I guess you never heard of VOC.

      There was a player who went up against the cartels quite a while back.

      He found out that he actually lost money owning the shops. So despite getting support from the community, he abandoned the cause.
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/82954-Guide-What-order-to-level-items-in-to-get-the-most-specialization-for-your-time/
    • Stravanov wrote:

      sandstorm22 wrote:

      A true Sandbox would allow an independent to advertise that he is holding the line against cartels. To have people stick with him even if the cartels lower their prices. To be able to sabotage the independent is wrong. That's not sandbox, that's corruption and game design flaw.
      So I guess you never heard of VOC.
      There was a player who went up against the cartels quite a while back.

      He found out that he actually lost money owning the shops. So despite getting support from the community, he abandoned the cause.
      Stuppid crowd alvays get what they deserved.
      But if just a few people with brain will start the fight cartel, they already can make alot of problems to cartel sweet 52% tax lifestyle, and may be change the whole auction and city plot mechanic's in the game. And if someone weaker surrender - not mean others should also surrender, if they want to play game with plots.
    • Stravanov wrote:

      So I guess you never heard of VOC.
      There was a player who went up against the cartels quite a while back.

      He found out that he actually lost money owning the shops. So despite getting support from the community, he abandoned the cause.
      Of course he lost money, thats what happens when you go agains people who got enough silver amassed to tire you out. Still its a game - so fighting for right cause in a environment focused on entertainment and leisure is doomed to fail at some point. Especially with bar set very high for only rich enough few able to do so. Monopolism will only get worse :P
    • Ragu wrote:

      Midgard wrote:

      Ragu wrote:

      Take away the bonus you get from using city plots versus your own island's and watch this issue vanish over night.
      You’re under the miscomprehension that it’s an issue. It isn’t.
      Obviously it is an issue, or there wouldn't be a discussion about it.
      Just because people don't like something, doesn't make it an issue. People are almost always willing to talk about things they don't like.

      More accurately. The amount that people complain about things isn't direct evidence of a problem, or to the magnitude of a problem, if there is one. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • Piddle wrote:

      Ragu wrote:

      Midgard wrote:

      Ragu wrote:

      Take away the bonus you get from using city plots versus your own island's and watch this issue vanish over night.
      You’re under the miscomprehension that it’s an issue. It isn’t.
      Obviously it is an issue, or there wouldn't be a discussion about it.
      Just because people don't like something, doesn't make it an issue. People are almost always willing to talk about things they don't like.
      More accurately. The amount that people complain about things isn't direct evidence of a problem, or to the magnitude of a problem, if there is one. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
      Actually, that's exactly what that means. Most folks don't make an issue of something unless there is a problem, or in this case, an imbalance. But, you'll just have to settle on agreeing to disagree.
    • Ragu wrote:

      Actually, that's exactly what that means. Most folks don't make an issue of something unless there is a problem, or in this case, an imbalance. But, you'll just have to settle on agreeing to disagree.
      The problem with that is that in this case 99% of people are on team have to pay taxes and 1% are on team collect taxes. So in situations like this vocal minorities aren't minorities. When the 99% would always vote to pay less than to pay more, you can't assume that their complaints are a reliable indicator of an issue. Especially considering that people complain about having to pay 5% taxes, 10%, 20% and 40%+. They complain about all taxes and at all times. Just sometimes more, and sometimes less. So the best you can really say is that the more people complain, the more there is a chance there is an issue. The problem with that in AO is that due to the player run economy, 40% taxes at one point in time aren't even the same as 40% taxes at another point in time. Because all of the variables feeding into it can change.

      This is why universally complaining about tax rates is a complete waste of time on discussions of monopolization. When you start talking about what is a "fair" tax to charge, it is all subjective. To someone paying the tax, they can feel it is unfair at almost any rate, because for them the situation is that they could always not pay anything, and that would be better.

      What you are saying is a faulty syllogism. Houses on fire have smoke coming out of them. A house has smoke coming out of it. Therefore the house with smoke coming out of it is on fire. Now, while it is much more likely that a house with smoke coming out of it is on fire, rather than that the plots are a problem, because people are complaining about them.

      It ignores completely all other scenarios in which smoke can be coming out of a house.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • Piddle wrote:

      Ragu wrote:

      Actually, that's exactly what that means. Most folks don't make an issue of something unless there is a problem, or in this case, an imbalance. But, you'll just have to settle on agreeing to disagree.
      The problem with that is that in this case 99% of people are on team have to pay taxes and 1% are on team collect taxes. So in situations like this vocal minorities aren't minorities. When the 99% would always vote to pay less than to pay more, you can't assume that their complaints are a reliable indicator of an issue. Especially considering that people complain about having to pay 5% taxes, 10%, 20% and 40%+. They complain about all taxes and at all times. Just sometimes more, and sometimes less. So the best you can really say is that the more people complain, the more there is a chance there is an issue. The problem with that in AO is that due to the player run economy, 40% taxes at one point in time aren't even the same as 40% taxes at another point in time. Because all of the variables feeding into it can change.
      This is why universally complaining about tax rates is a complete waste of time on discussions of monopolization. When you start talking about what is a "fair" tax to charge, it is all subjective. To someone paying the tax, they can feel it is unfair at almost any rate, because for them the situation is that they could always not pay anything, and that would be better.

      What you are saying is a faulty syllogism. Houses on fire have smoke coming out of them. A house has smoke coming out of it. Therefore the house with smoke coming out of it is on fire. Now, while it is much more likely that a house with smoke coming out of it is on fire, rather than that the plots are a problem, because people are complaining about them.

      It ignores completely all other scenarios in which smoke can be coming out of a house.
      Just stop lie and trying to manipulate.
      Its not a subjective opinion. Taxes now is a scam for all players who can not count the profit and dont understand how it works.
      If you can produce result materials in your personal island plot cheaper in total price then on city plot with tax(what is true for now) - its a clear scam and game mechanics abuse.
      Just the same scam as eggsecutioner cannon skin, selling on AH for 15m silver, when you can buy 2k gold it cost for 5 mil in 1 click.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by iRawr ().

    • I think this is a part of the game to be honest. Shouldn't be limited -- if someone has the resources, time, and planning to work this out -- they should have the option.
      And it's also easily broken, just 1 person in each city is literally all you need.

      Note that i just joined the game a week or so ago, so i might not have that much experience, but i read a lot about it.
      And i'm also in no guild, so i'm not helping myself here. Just my honest opinion. Devs shouldn't mess with this.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Rhodesia ().

    • Rhodesia wrote:

      I think this is a part of the game to be honest. Shouldn't be limited -- if someone has the resources, time, and planning to work this out -- they should have the option.
      And it's also easily broken, just 1 person in each city is literally all you need.
      Absolutely right
      Midgard
      T8 Fibre, Ore, Hide, Wood & Stone Gatherer
      T8 Gathering Gear Crafter
      T8 Bags & Capes Crafter
    • iRawr wrote:

      Midgard wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      Its not a subjective opinion.
      It is absolutely a subjective opinion.

      iRawr wrote:

      Taxes now is a scam for all players who can not count the profit and dont understand how it works.
      What an absolute crock of shit. Of course it isn't a scam..
      Its pretty interesting and legit arguements. Pretty sure its prove that's you r right. Nice one.
      You don't get to call out people for not making arguments, immediately following yourself not making an argument. Just yelling SCAM SCAM. Not an argument either, as much as you and AdamSmith think it is.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • Piddle wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      Midgard wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      Its not a subjective opinion.
      It is absolutely a subjective opinion.

      iRawr wrote:

      Taxes now is a scam for all players who can not count the profit and dont understand how it works.
      What an absolute crock of shit. Of course it isn't a scam..
      Its pretty interesting and legit arguements. Pretty sure its prove that's you r right. Nice one.
      You don't get to call out people for not making arguments, immediately following yourself not making an argument. Just yelling SCAM SCAM. Not an argument either, as much as you and AdamSmith think it is.
      If you guys just not add the argument in quote, doesn't mean i didn't have it. But it is how you are trying to manipulate the facts. But ill mark the argument for you.

      iRawr wrote:

      Just stop lie and trying to manipulate.Its not a subjective opinion. Taxes now is a scam for all players who can not count the profit and dont understand how it works.
      If you can produce result materials in your personal island plot cheaper in total price then on city plot with tax(what is true for now) - its a clear scam and game mechanics abuse.
      Just the same scam as eggsecutioner cannon skin, selling on AH for 15m silver, when you can buy 2k gold it cost for 5 mil in 1 click.
      My argument is mathematics. And its will look not so smart to call the mathematical ratio of numbers on the principle of more / less - subjective opinion.

      That why, you simply take another phrase out of context.

      As i say before, this argument is correct for any craft where the TAX in silver = 8.5% and more of the resource price.


      So players just pay more silver for the resources, if doing craft like that by city plots. And if the player is misled by a larger % or RRR, but does not realize that he will pay more. (He does not realize that the cost of the final result will be higher for him, because he uses a machine with too high tax). That is essentially just a scam.



      And you just trying to hide the arguments for its anything unconfirmed and unsubstantiated comments like:


      Piddle wrote:

      You don't get to call out people for not making arguments, immediately following yourself not making an argument. Just yelling SCAM SCAM. Not an argument either, as much as you and AdamSmith think it is.

      Midgard wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      Its not a subjective opinion.
      It is absolutely a subjective opinion.

      iRawr wrote:

      Taxes now is a scam for all players who can not count the profit and dont understand how it works.
      What an absolute crock of shit. Of course it isn't a scam..
      Etc.

      Event when if my argument approved by you own calculation:

      Piddle wrote:




      So yeah, we are all the way back to where you started in the first place. With you not having to pay for the station or the food. Or, the island if you don't already have on in Lymhurst.
      Not all players do this for convenience, many are simply misled by the complex calculations and game interface, showing them a larger % return of resources. And this kind of players - get scammed.
      The player who just want to pay more silver for the resources, and understand that, is weird guys, but they can do whatever they like.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by iRawr ().

    • iRawr wrote:

      My argument is mathematics. And its will look not so smart to call the mathematical ratio of numbers on the principle of more / less - subjective opinion.
      But, your math is usually about 20% correct, and you don't do anything but the basics. So, you aren't getting a good answer.

      The subjectivity is that you aren't calculating what you think you are, in the way you should be doing it, and with an understanding of the mechanics from the various game play points of view.

      So just saying, you did math, and that math isn't subjective is silly. Because you are the one who is adding the subjectivity. Math and statistics are constantly missrepresented to people. Sometimes through ignorance, and sometimes through bad faith. I'm pretty sure you aren't deceiving people through willful use of disinformation, but that doesn't change the fact that you are nearly always factually wrong.

      Like lets talk about this scam mentality of yours. Currently I can buy a T2 laborer on the Caerleon market for 1000 silver or 2000 silver, Merc and Gatherer. Which of those is a scam, and why?
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • Piddle wrote:

      iRawr wrote:

      My argument is mathematics. And its will look not so smart to call the mathematical ratio of numbers on the principle of more / less - subjective opinion.
      But, your math is usually about 20% correct, and you don't do anything but the basics. So, you aren't getting a good answer.
      The subjectivity is that you aren't calculating what you think you are, in the way you should be doing it, and with an understanding of the mechanics from the various game play points of view.

      So just saying, you did math, and that math isn't subjective is silly. Because you are the one who is adding the subjectivity. Math and statistics are constantly missrepresented to people. Sometimes through ignorance, and sometimes through bad faith. I'm pretty sure you aren't deceiving people through willful use of disinformation, but that doesn't change the fact that you are nearly always factually wrong.

      Like lets talk about this scam mentality of yours. Currently I can buy a T2 laborer on the Caerleon market for 1000 silver or 2000 silver, Merc and Gatherer. Which of those is a scam, and why?
      The problem is, it is confirmed by yours 100% correct math YOU R using as argument in the last time we talk about it.



      Piddle wrote:

      Like lets talk about this scam mentality of yours. Currently I can buy a T2 laborer on the Caerleon market for 1000 silver or 2000 silver, Merc and Gatherer. Which of those is a scam, and why?
      Right now? Both is scam.

      BUT if you understand it. You can make your choice whether you want to pay the player at the auction extra silver so as not to press these buttons in the building’s interface.

      You will not be scammed, only if you understand why you pay extra silver and agree with this. And here is no "calculations", its obvious, that 864 < 1000 < 2000.