Why is SBI so adamant to force people into no opt-out PvP for anything T5+

    • Lofthild wrote:

      The game is a touted as a "MMORPG sandbox", and yet as a PvE player or gatherer you're only safe until T5 zones, which is the last tier of safe zones, as T6 - T8 zones are full-loot PvP.

      Why is that the case?
      To me it seems the forced PvP of T6+ zones is just there to uphold the illusion(especially for SBI) that the game:
      • Is a sandbox with PvP focus and
      • People actually want to play no opt-out PvP when they just want to gather or PvE


      Someone in a reddit thread put it best(with a little paraphrase from me):
      Full-loot PvP is just a code for "High level player ganking low level players/groups ganking solo players while both run away from other high level PvP players. Guild fights are only about trading territories with little to no fighting".
      Food for thought:
      How many players would be glad for and come back to the game if there are T6-T8 blue/yellow zones for safe PvE and gathering?
      How many players would actually miss this full-loot PvP(not considering HG) of ganking low level players/ganking solo players or smaller groups in a big group?
      I actually will be very blunt here. Leave this game. This game is not for you. Many of us have been playing this game since Beta and it has become extremely friendly to people in many ways as it relates to full loot PvP.

      Wanting this game to get more softcore would destroy the only element that makes it unique. Making it so that you can opt out of PvP would destroy open world PvP and the game entirely.

      I am sorry man, you just are in the wrong game if you want all reward and no risk, and frankly, you upset me by trying to make this game more softcore. It is the only game many of us love because it is the way that it is and I would rather see people like you leave it than see the game change in the ways you are suggesting.

      So buzz off.
      Kind Regards,

      Blackboa / MannyMoments / HeadmasterBoa

      Follow my Stream on Twitch---> twitch.tv/blackboa

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Blackboa ().

    • Ikcen wrote:

      Britishweeb wrote:

      Hmmm.. why don't we implement a system where players can flag as "non-pvp" and freely walk in black zone without getting attacked?
      Because that will make black or any zones pointless. Most players will be non-pvp. People are in general rational, and they will avoid the risk if they can. Even if that means a bad game.
      This is a MMO, if you play exclusively solo, there is something wrong with you, but not with the game.

      Players are generally rational, and will avoid the game entirely if they can find something else more fun.

      Also, solo content is not isolated content. In a well-designed MMO, solo players have long-term effects on the world.

      Blackboa wrote:

      I am sorry man, you just are in the wrong game if you want all reward and no risk, and frankly, you upset me by trying to make this game more softcore

      The core issue here is so-called PvPers who want to attack PvEers and take their stuff. Thanks to the game mechanics, PvEers can't really fight back (especially gatherers), their only real option is to run, and the so-called PvPers get their jollies chasing them down.

      Furthermore, the so-called "PvPers" will often run if they see anything resembling an equal fight. Gankers assume little risk and a great deal of reward, while the PvEers assume a far higher risk.

      Eventually, PvEers will have had enough, the game itself will fail their risk/reward metric, and they will play something else.

      Ironically, all opt-in PvP does is ensure that anyone playing in the PvP layer wants to be there, and is as ready to PvP as they can be. Naturally, gankers hate that. :) For all their talk of "risk/reward" and "PvP", gankers just want to seal club.

      So, the risk/reward business question any PvP MMO must ask: do they cater to the small slice of the gaming population that enjoys chasing people away from games, people who belong to a much bigger potential population?
    • Roccandil wrote:

      Ironically, all opt-in PvP does is ensure that anyone playing in the PvP layer wants to be there, and is as ready to PvP as they can be.
      The current system also ensures that anyone playing the PvP layer wants to be there also, as players make a choice to play in that area. And if theyre not as ready to PvP as they can be, then thats their fault. Also, being ready for PvP doesnt necessarily mean standing and fighting.
      Midgard
      T8 Fibre, Ore, Hide, Wood & Stone Gatherer
      T8 Gathering Gear Crafter
      T8 Bags & Capes Crafter
    • Midgard wrote:

      The current system also ensures that anyone playing the PvP layer wants to be there also, as players make a choice to play in that area.
      Not totally true, the OP want to gather t6-t7-t8.. best thing he can do is join a big alliances 90% of the time he will feel the black zone is a blue zone if he does.. problem solve thx to the bad/zergion/monopolie game design, no need to quit the game like BB said just embrace the easy no balls mode the game offering you... poeple that cry for not helping small scale/ solo player on the black zone are most of the time poeple that are member of big alliances when they're not they are those cheese ganker that like pounding noobs on the RZ..

      Midgard wrote:

      And if theyre not as ready to PvP as they can be, then thats their fault.
      Yup blame the gatherer wearing gathering gears, aka: rabbit gears. got it

      Midgard wrote:

      Also, being ready for PvP doesnt necessarily mean standing and fighting.

      True fact it mean being rdy to harass and grief.. take my example i was doing lots of RZ dungeons with nature staff i was rdy to defend myself but not to kill anyone without CC or good movement speed in my PvE nature set up.. so when i was getting dive i won at least 70% of my solo fight but only once i was able to finish/kill my opponent instead i had to wait on him to get bored or realised he could not kill me.. so the grief and harrasment would stop when he was not calling friends.. ps: i died 100% of the time i lost the fight since ganker (cheese build) can harass/grief/run

      On albion being rdy for PvP, if ur solo, it mean rdy to harass, grief, run.. wich will never happen for a gatherer.. look the gathering gears some are more than bad some knockback "defense" put u in combat as the attacker.. outside the skinning boots we have nuthing meta instead lots of them are dog shit..

      Tho i agree what the OP wants in the current state of the game is impossible, plus you have the option of joining a big alliance instead trying to fix something... contribute to it's deterioration :/


      Edit:

      Blackboa wrote:

      you upset me by trying to make this game more softcore.

      So buzz off.

      When the best fix for gathering would be to break the power/monopolie of big alliance on the Black Zone.. while being in a big alliance is the easiest fucking easy mode button, aka softcore.. i think u should reconsider a lot of things about the black zone meta.. u know the zone that hold ALL the t7 and t8 resources wich is owned by 5% of the population and that 5% gather 90% of all that mats!?

      Edit2: the softcore mecanic in the black zone u dont want has already been added at queen launch.. the hideout for big alliances...

      Edit3: and I have the feeling u have access to a shit load of them to.. so buzz off the guy that dont want to contribute to the problem but trying to solve it by a anti PvP design (wich i totally do not want) PvP off flag would be the end of albion i agree on that but listen the guy... to his problem, cuz they are real instead of insulting the guy on his bad solutions and telling him to leave ..

      The post was edited 4 times, last by KroDuK ().

    • Lofthild wrote:

      The game is a touted as a "MMORPG sandbox", and yet as a PvE player or gatherer you're only safe until T5 zones, which is the last tier of safe zones, as T6 - T8 zones are full-loot PvP.

      Why is that the case?
      To me it seems the forced PvP of T6+ zones is just there to uphold the illusion(especially for SBI) that the game:
      • Is a sandbox with PvP focus and
      • People actually want to play no opt-out PvP when they just want to gather or PvE


      Someone in a reddit thread put it best(with a little paraphrase from me):
      Full-loot PvP is just a code for "High level player ganking low level players/groups ganking solo players while both run away from other high level PvP players. Guild fights are only about trading territories with little to no fighting".
      Food for thought:
      How many players would be glad for and come back to the game if there are T6-T8 blue/yellow zones for safe PvE and gathering?
      How many players would actually miss this full-loot PvP(not considering HG) of ganking low level players/ganking solo players or smaller groups in a big group?
      So, I only play this game because I can kill other players and take their stuff, it also gets my heart beating when I escape ganks. Look I am not the best pvper but if safe T6-T8 zones were introduced I would quit the game. It is essentially Trammel.
    • I guess to each their own but the Albion non PvP components are incredibly boring and lacking compared to other MMO options. I am always caught off guard by how many people play Albion that somehow hate PvP. Sure it is a little excessive and favorable to the N+1 mindset but as a primary solo PvPer myself I still enjoy the randomness. Sometimes I dive a solo in huge gear, sometimes it is 2 players, sometimes I get chased by 8 dudes on swift claws as I am searching for content, you just never really know.

      I did wish they would fix the issue of mobility being king so more variety of builds could be viable in the open world but I also understand that balancing is tough.
    • Tabor wrote:

      I guess to each their own but the Albion non PvP components are incredibly boring and lacking compared to other MMO options. I am always caught off guard by how many people play Albion that somehow hate PvP. Sure it is a little excessive and favorable to the N+1 mindset but as a primary solo PvPer myself I still enjoy the randomness. Sometimes I dive a solo in huge gear, sometimes it is 2 players, sometimes I get chased by 8 dudes on swift claws as I am searching for content, you just never really know.

      I did wish they would fix the issue of mobility being king so more variety of builds could be viable in the open world but I also understand that balancing is tough.
      The main draw for me is the simplified armor system. In other games figuring out how to maximize your gear can be a real nightmare with the usual fear of it breaking during upgrading.
    • Look if u opt in PvP, what would happen

      T8 zones would be crowded with unflaged gatheter

      They would compete with these other an 6 gathete would collect same resource

      If they done with gathering they would all unite and flag for PvP to chase what?

      The non flagged gatheter? Not gonna work cannot touch

      And imagine the aspect of basically riskless t8 resources. Prices would drop, T8 would be worthless..

      This is just the beginning, the risk impact of t7 / T8 bz is what makes the bonus

      U want remove the risk? Fine, remove the bonus.

      T7 T8 without risk already exist, it is yellow and blue zone, but as I said, the reward is gone..thats why u unhappy there

      Understand risk & reward and u understand that opt in PvP is not for this game ..
    • Hollywoodi wrote:



      T7 T8 without risk already exist, it is yellow and blue zone, but as I said, the reward is gone..
      I do not get this statement, the highest yellow zone is T5 and the highest blue zone is T4? But I also do not think that this is a problem at all, at some point you have to go into the black zone as this is in some sence the goal of the game. But I get the problem all the people wanting opt-in PvP have: Situations in which you have no chance are unfun. In the open world I think this is barely a problem, as if you are aware of your surroundings you can easely escape most situations. I also did not have any problems with portal gankers and still do not understand the idea of the shrines as this simply eliminates the fist zone and puts the problem on the second.

      The much more problematic situations are dungeon divers. Even in 1v1 Situations you are simply dead if you run an pure PvE build. And now comes the problem: The new players have to run pure PvE builds as they otherwise cannot clear the dungeons. But if they get dove, they cannot fight due to lack of gear and/or specs. So for them it is just luck based if they get dove or not. Not even taking the 1vN problematic in this case into account.
      Note that I am not saying that it is not possible to run dungeons in a way that allows quick clearing and fight back the divers. I am saying that the new players, who have to run these to get their specs, cannot. And this is the core design problem where all these posts are originating from.

      In the open world the same thing is true. When I first started in the black zone, I had trouble escaping gankers. The reason was that i was not able to ride a swiftclaw because i had just reached T5 and did not have the money to loose a swiftclaw. Not even starting about flat T4 equipement.... Now I do not have any problems, but the beginning players still have. The phase till you are able to afford what you need to survive in the open world is luckily rather short. But to get 100 specs and enought money to afford good gear ( not once but many times) is at the moment much too long. And during all this time getting dove is not fun, as you cannot fight and in many situations cannot run.

      All together I think a way to get rather efficient fame is needed for newer players. The safe options are just too bad ( expeditions the mobs give 80? fame and yellow zone dungeons of order 200) with these numbers you can forget to get the 100 million needed for 100 spec. Note that I am not saying that the loot and income of these need to be any good, but the fame is needed to be able to efficiently participate in the PvP, and promoting PvP is after all the goal of the developers. Higher tier solo expeditions or real solo dungeons would be a big step in this direction. These solo dungeons could have no chests at all to counter the low risk ( only on the way to the dungeon you can get killed).
      Also of course the fame needs not to be as high as in SRDs at the moment, but of the same magnitude that it makes sense to farm them. And this should be beginner content so that once you reached the point where you stand a chance go out into the real dungeons to get the loot and even better fame for secondary weapon sets.
    • Hollywoodi wrote:

      Look if u opt in PvP, what would happen

      T8 zones would be crowded with unflaged gatheter

      They would compete with these other an 6 gathete would collect same resource

      If they done with gathering they would all unite and flag for PvP to chase what?

      The non flagged gatheter? Not gonna work cannot touch

      And imagine the aspect of basically riskless t8 resources. Prices would drop, T8 would be worthless..

      This is just the beginning, the risk impact of t7 / T8 bz is what makes the bonus

      Adding opt-in flagging to the Outlands would require many other changes, for sure. One mechanic I'd like to see would be unflagged PvE contributing to the PvP value of a zone (for that matter, I'd first like to see that in the Royals, connected to the faction system somehow!).

      So, for every resource gathered in an Outlands zone, the territory would duplicate that resource in a chest for its owners (maybe even double/triple it). The owners would thus want PvEers using their zone 24/7, because that makes the owners wealthy. :)

      That would destroy the ganking of PvEers, yes, but would also stimulate territorial PvP: owning zones would become far more valuable.

      As to the cost of T8 resources, that would still be regulated by the hard gather cap (which could be balanced up/down as needed).

      And let's be clear: it's the ganking-style PvP that most players hate.
    • I'm a new player less than 2 months in. I was actually thinking about this topic yesterday before I even read this post.

      Every game I have played since 2000 I have played as PvP. EQ not a lot. DaoC, GW2 and ESO I would say 90%+ of my time was in PvP. Here's my problem with AO. I'm a slow learner. In the 3 games listed I got worked over hard at the beginning. No problem, get back on the horse and try again. I won't use hyperbole to describe my loss/win ratio, but it was bad. Eventually, slowly I got better. In DaoC, I ended up leading my server in solo kills for my class.

      In AO I can't afford to pay the price for my slow learning curve. Not only do I lack the ability, I'm going against players with better skill and far better equipment. I can't afford to use good equipment because I will lose it.... and no, duels and Arena don't help that much to improve.

      So I'm at a loss. I haven't been this transfixed with a game since EQ. Seriously an amazing game and concept. Still, I see a road block coming. My harvesting is almost T6, so I know I will have to move into the BZ. I don't see it ending well. Which would make me sad.

      The game is doing well so obviously the rule set is working. I wish it was just full inventory loot so you could actually enjoy and use the gear you worked so hard to get.
    • sandstorm22 wrote:

      I wish it was just full inventory loot so you could actually enjoy and use the gear you worked so hard to get.
      I got ur point from a gatherer perspective.. ur losing all the mats ur worked for last 30-60 min vs ganker plus all ur gathering equipment, mount included...ur gonna have to do 5-6 run of 30-60min only to cover the charge of ur dead -.-

      But u have to be cautious with that kind of system ur asking for.. take an example ur ganker instead wearing t6.2 would be in 8.3 master piece and would be ganking you on a battlemount :P
      A game like UO wich was base on skill fight added a feature that was looking like that instead of being full loot, it became an insurance system u were paying an amount of silver for each piece upon dead (to keep it) 50% of that money was going into ur killer pocket and the other 50% was going into the system to remove silver from the game... That feature came with another one; new and very powerfull item u had to grind on a PvE zone for hundred of hours (wich replace the skilled UO fight system for the best items win the fight).. it was the first step in the wrong direction.. the PvP side of the game was less n less crowded.. since PvPer was forced to PvE to get those gears before returning PvP..
      That expansion became what players called AoS noob (Age of Shadow in 2003) It brings a lot of noob player, WoW like players.. wich all quit 1 year later to play WoW and it already hurted the bone of the community the HC PvP players, that refused to grind PvE for hundred of hours, so in 2005 UO was on a downfall wich he never cameback even with a sexy expansion like the elf one..

      Well on Albion i could see an insurance system like 20% of the market price items ON SOME ITEMS u know like gathering gears ?

      Meanwhile a little, solo gatherer, tips.. when ur caught and u know ur gonna die start deleting ur inventory, like u start with the big stack or the .3 stuff u got.. a big fuck you, is the best u can do right now :P


      Edit: ur idea sound fun at first roccandil but if im a terri owner i ll jump on an alt to gather-doing pve content in my zone to get the maximum loot possible, it's the same kind of fix than the limiting big alliance it gonna change nuthing except big alliances would have to work a little big harder but bigger reward :(

      What u want i would see this for the new hide n seek 1v1 content.. u place 2 sheep that cannot attack other player outside of the wolf.. the wolf would have 2 sheep to hunt down and would receive 100% more fame and loot for being the wolf doing 1v2 content.. the PvE players have that little stress since they in the same dungeons but if they want to help each others they have to find each others first.. and the wolf that like PvP gonna have 2 potential victims that dont know each others and have a good odd to not have a good build to support each others (if they find each other first) but still can try to team.. If u have broken item u could limit certain items for sheep make sure they dont turn into rats (like bloodletter and 1-h spear would be limited to the wolf) or just the holy staff.. cuz u dont want an horde of sheep with holy staff doing this content fpr 50% the fame n loot the wolf could get by himself... anyway -.-

      The post was edited 6 times, last by KroDuK ().

    • Lofthild wrote:

      The game is a touted as a "MMORPG sandbox", and yet as a PvE player or gatherer you're only safe until T5 zones, which is the last tier of safe zones, as T6 - T8 zones are full-loot PvP.

      Why is that the case?
      To me it seems the forced PvP of T6+ zones is just there to uphold the illusion(especially for SBI) that the game:
      • Is a sandbox with PvP focus and
      • People actually want to play no opt-out PvP when they just want to gather or PvE


      Someone in a reddit thread put it best(with a little paraphrase from me):
      Full-loot PvP is just a code for "High level player ganking low level players/groups ganking solo players while both run away from other high level PvP players. Guild fights are only about trading territories with little to no fighting".
      Food for thought:
      How many players would be glad for and come back to the game if there are T6-T8 blue/yellow zones for safe PvE and gathering?
      How many players would actually miss this full-loot PvP(not considering HG) of ganking low level players/ganking solo players or smaller groups in a big group?
      why would u have some rewards as someone who is risking all their stuff in terms of silver / resources? u can still gather just not in t6-t8 and u dont need t6-t8 gear if u dont want to be in t6-t8 places
    • I really don't get it..

      As soon as u pased portal ganks BZ is still empty.

      Go to a rest as a base. Look around the rest who owns a hideout. Take e.g. morgana rest, make home there.

      If I go down the 2 exalted crypt to the free chests, I do in 2x3 mins 500-600 k silver in total in T3 Gear..

      If u go to an exalted crypt on the top u can free fame farm and do the chest rotation. I never had someone compete for it. Each chest on the roof is 10k there is 8 chests so u do the rotation u earn money

      U gather at morgana, u bank often, during off ours off the adjacent terries it is dead there. U have free gather almost, u don't transport back you craft in the free hideout

      I do not see your issue at all..
    • hi. I know everyone is aggressively going at ya.. its fair to want what you proposed.
      But I dont want that to happen in albion.

      I was a very bad pvp player in the beginning but albion having a hostile blackzone means that the things that i achieved mean something, making some money and then becoming real rich, getting better at PVP and finding ways what to do where i can improve with the bank of a shitty player, being a valueable member of a guild. If you want you could take it as a challenge to accomplish these and more, and of course you shoudlnt play albion hardcore timewise because you got to learn so much and its stressful, just take it slow.

      I do hate getting ganked or getting murdered by a group multiple times of mine, but I also have sympathy for those players. they get something out of ambushing someone that doesnt want to fight, or outnumbering their victim. they kind a need that success (is it really though?) for whatever reason, maybe feel bad or they cant make silver any other way or win another way (maybe they just newbies trying to pvp). I like it that there is a place for the "bandits", I can look down at them when they dive me in a solo dungeon and pile on me 2v1 :) which of course makes me just as much a prick, a place for everyone though.

      the deep blackzone is not meant for solo players, it takes lots of people to achieve what good guilds need, to be successful. this means (just as in nature and history) you need to get good at working with people. If you want you can be solo, that way you also dont need to contribute to a group by joining and bringing decent gear. but as the other guys have said if you only want to PVE in the highend and have good gear for that I hope you can understand why we do not want to change the game so you can experience that. in such a case another game that has better PVE would probably be a good option as sad as it would be that you wouldnt be a part of albion and this community of handholders and zerg gankers :P

      just my opinion, cheers

      The post was edited 1 time, last by jack12 ().

    • Roccandil wrote:

      Ikcen wrote:

      Britishweeb wrote:

      Hmmm.. why don't we implement a system where players can flag as "non-pvp" and freely walk in black zone without getting attacked?
      Because that will make black or any zones pointless. Most players will be non-pvp. People are in general rational, and they will avoid the risk if they can. Even if that means a bad game.This is a MMO, if you play exclusively solo, there is something wrong with you, but not with the game.
      Players are generally rational, and will avoid the game entirely if they can find something else more fun.
      Indeed, if you want to kill the game make it solo focused, as there are much better solo focused games out there.

      Also, there are not PvP and PvE players. Or you want to say there is some guy in Albion who never compete with another player? Some people are just bad in communication or in playing the game. That forces them to play solo PvE. But they are not PvE players, they are just bad players.

      And if you make a game focused on the bad players, you will have a bad game.

      It is pretty simple.
    • sandstorm22 wrote:

      I'm a new player less than 2 months in. I was actually thinking about this topic yesterday before I even read this post.

      Every game I have played since 2000 I have played as PvP. EQ not a lot. DaoC, GW2 and ESO I would say 90%+ of my time was in PvP. Here's my problem with AO. I'm a slow learner. In the 3 games listed I got worked over hard at the beginning. No problem, get back on the horse and try again. I won't use hyperbole to describe my loss/win ratio, but it was bad. Eventually, slowly I got better. In DaoC, I ended up leading my server in solo kills for my class.

      In AO I can't afford to pay the price for my slow learning curve. Not only do I lack the ability, I'm going against players with better skill and far better equipment. I can't afford to use good equipment because I will lose it.... and no, duels and Arena don't help that much to improve.

      So I'm at a loss. I haven't been this transfixed with a game since EQ. Seriously an amazing game and concept. Still, I see a road block coming. My harvesting is almost T6, so I know I will have to move into the BZ. I don't see it ending well. Which would make me sad.

      The game is doing well so obviously the rule set is working. I wish it was just full inventory loot so you could actually enjoy and use the gear you worked so hard to get.
      Just join an active guild that has territory and all your problems are solved lol. All you have to do is be active and show up when and where they tell you to and almost any guild will be happy to have you...
    • Learning how to avoid ganks in the black zone is part of the game as a gatherer. Learning pathing, dodging mobs, the mechanics of shields when gate hopping or even jumping into a dungeon to get your shield back when leaving to safely make it to the next gate/portal.

      The point of the highest resources being in the black zone is because you have to make a risk for those higher rewards. If you could sit their carelessly pressing one button the entire time you play albion for 8+ hours beating on trees with no care in the world? there is absolutely no reason for the game to even continue running.

      Quick hypothetical question.. lets just say t7 and t8 resources were plentiful and openly available for non pvp zones right? How long would you even continue playing this game? a month? maybe? after you accomplish absolutely everything in the game? gather and craft the highest tier gear? whats the point? Because now you are in the spot that we would be in because you want "optional flagging" of sitting there with gear you earned and nothing to do with it because no one flags.

      There is no way at all to fit the idea of optional flagging in t7 and t8 zones. Stupid idea for someone who is crying about being ganked. Someone who is too lazy to learn how to survive ganks or avoid them. Typical "I want everything without having to put any effort towards it" attitude.

      As Boa said.... Buzz off.