This game punishes people who offer content

    • This game punishes people who offer content

      So, after having been dived for the n-th time in a solo dungeon by one of the many parasite players in search of easy loot with little risk to themsleves, I decided to check how much fame the guy got for killing me: about 125.000. That is more than the amount of fame I managed to get in my 10 minute dungeon run to the boss. He also got much better loot from me than I would have gotten in the dungeon had I completed it.

      Now let's face the sad reality: I was providing the content for the diver. Not the game developers. Not SBI. I was the target of a player that was actually looking for an easy kill with very little risk to themselves (a diver comes prepared to PvP, while his/her target is usually geared for PvE. He has lots of crowd control skills, full HPs and can usually engage a target which is already engaged by monsters). This game rewards easy kills and punishes people who offer content to opportunists by putting themselves in danger while doing the content the developers provide.

      The mechanics and the rewards do not encourage PvP. They encourage griefing. If you are a person that doesn't want to inflict griefing on others (not just not being on the receiving end of it) the game will chastise you. You are not welcome here, because if you only play "fairly" you will always be at a disadvantage with respect to players that embrace the cut-throat mechanics of the game. In other words: there is no incentive in the game to not be an ass to other players.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Athanir ().

    • @Fusionbomb
      You offered a few methods to lower the chance of being successfully dived. We can discuss their effectiveness if you want (except for the third one: this game is already grindy enough. Rather than split the already meager fame reward I will just go play something else. I'm looking for an hobby, not a full time job).

      But your suggestions are a workaround. I was talking game design here and the kind of interactions and attitudes that it encourgaes and rewards. Attitudes that border on the anti-social (or at least, would be considered like that in real life). I wonder if it's possible to build an Open World full loot PvP game that rewards fairness instead of expediency. For sure, this is not that game.

      @ImaDoki
      Didn't know that. Thanks for the tip

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Athanir ().

    • Athanir wrote:

      I was talking game design here and the kind of interactions and attitudes that it encourgaes and rewards.
      the game is designed to be full-loot pvp, where the idea is to murder unsuspecting people and steal their stuff in a criminal fashion

      things are pretty fair though, if you know the game mechanics
      Fusionbomb - GM of Morbidly_Obese

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    • As a diver I can agree with much of your sentiment. There is literally no content available for solo PvPers so many turn to SRD diving. I crush most of my opponents even many that are running with 2 players simply because dungeons runners often are not the experienced fighter I would hope to fight.

      I do not do this with the intention of griefing or making easy money (however this part is true it is very profitable) I dive because that is what is available. If I sit in OW I will inevitability get swarmed.

      I would love for SBI to add some sort of competitive small scale content that I and many others could play. This is where we would reside if available and the amount of SRD divers would drop.
    • Fusionbomb wrote:

      Athanir wrote:

      I was talking game design here and the kind of interactions and attitudes that it encourgaes and rewards.
      the game is designed to be full-loot pvp, where the idea is to murder unsuspecting people and steal their stuff in a criminal fashion
      things are pretty fair though, if you know the game mechanics
      And that's why, in the real world, you have a price to pay to be a criminal. In the game the price is so low that being a criminal is a no brainer. The problem I was talking about is not that it's full loot PvP. It's that it's too easy to gain an overwhelming advantage and being able to kill players in ways that are utterly one-sided and unfair, while at the same time the player who is on the receiving end of the unfairness and offers the content for the diver is not compensated enough by the developers.
      If I stop running solo dungeons, and people like me do the same, the divers will have to find themselves a new way to waste their time and make their money. And why should I keep farming dungeons when the loot utterly sucks and I'm at risk of losing 3-400K Silver of equipment at a time without having a chance to defend myself.
    • It is the game's core design to encourage taking what others earned while punishing actual work. It is even worse in group dungeons since you can be jumped on by a whole raid. Not to mention what gatherers deal with.
      Hell, even farming and crafting is greatly devalued by all of it. You would just lose money if you tried to raise mounts for sale. All because the divers and portal farmers are getting an endless supply of them, that they want to get rid of quickly and end up selling them for less than the amount required to raise and saddle one.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Idebenn ().

    • Idebenn wrote:

      It is the game's core design to encourage taking what others earned while punishing actual work. It is even worse in group dungeons since you can be jumped on by a whole raid. Not to mention what gatherers deal with.
      Hell, even farming and crafting is greatly devalued by all of it. You would just lose money if you tried to raise mounts for sale. All because the divers and portal farmers are getting an endless supply of them, that they want to get rid of quickly and end up selling them for less than the amount required to raise and saddle one.

      Yes, I've realized why I hate ganking so much (whether I'm on the giving or receiving side). For the ganker versus the gatherer, these are the victory conditions:
      • Victory for the gatherer is getting away and keeping their own gear. Defeat is losing their gear.
      • Victory for the ganker is getting the gatherer's gear. Defeat is the ganker just keeping their own gear.
      The victory condition for the gatherer is identical to the defeat condition for the ganker: coming out of the engagement just keeping their own gear!

      That's inherently imbalanced and broken, and drives players away from any game employing that set of conditions. For those reasons, I consider ganking the lowest form of PvP.

      Real PvP begins with more equitable victory conditions: you win, you get my gear; I win, I get your gear.
    • Generally speaking, when you add tangible and profitable rewards to PvP, it is ruined, becoming just another way of farming, where most of people participate for the rewards and not the PvP itself, doing their best to circumvent any kind of risk and fair fight in order to maximize the profits.
      The reward for PvP should be the fun itself.
    • Forum has been littered with the best solution for this. Increased trash rates for imbalanced fights would drastically reduce the profitability of large number ganking further increasing their chances of escape if the ganking party size was smaller in nature.

      While I agree Rocc that ganking is the lowest form of PvP your comparison does miss a key piece. Gankers lose time. Gatherers are continually making profit while gankers only make profit if they secure a kill. This could take 20 minutes or 2 minutes it is random and unpredictable.
    • Tabor wrote:

      Forum has been littered with the best solution for this. Increased trash rates for imbalanced fights would drastically reduce the profitability of large number ganking further increasing their chances of escape if the ganking party size was smaller in nature.

      I agree with this mechanic, but gankers will still be able to exploit the advantage of numbers without all of them entering combat. For example, multiple teams cover all exits, only one team actually makes the kill.

      (And I'm not referring to a static ganking waiting game: I'm referring to gerg-style ganking, where a large party sweeps a zone in a few minutes and then heads to the next one. That's so easy and profitable it feels like seal-clubbing or clear-cutting! :P And I don't like doing it, at least not to random players.)

      Tabor wrote:

      While I agree Rocc that ganking is the lowest form of PvP your comparison does miss a key piece. Gankers lose time. Gatherers are continually making profit while gankers only make profit if they secure a kill. This could take 20 minutes or 2 minutes it is random and unpredictable.

      Gatherers also lose time spent gathering if they're killed.
    • Athanir wrote:


      If you are a person that doesn't want to inflict griefing on others (not just not being on the receiving end of it) the game will chastise you. You are not welcome here, because if you only play "fairly" you will always be at a disadvantage with respect to players that embrace the cut-throat mechanics of the game. In other words: there is no incentive in the game to not be an ass to other players.
      I agree with pretty much all in the OP post. But there are ways to play the game without griefing

      1) Crafting Potions / Food that are good for defense and trying to keep market price at reasonable level
      2) Anti-gankin. If you really want to feel like a boss as a solo go to yellow with T8.3, high reputation and decent spec. You can take 3 reds if you are good. I am not good but i can take out one and often survive
      3) Do some niche stuff like collecting weird items. I collected mount skins which turned out to be worth billions in silver after a change in game...

      Good Luck!
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