Axes need more Utility

    • Axes need more Utility

      Currently as its stands - axes have the least utility (CC immunity, interrupts or slows) on their skills. They have pretty good damage (still, similar to swords), but swords have so much more utility, that they basically feel like they outclass axes in most of situations and most sucky of all - swords allow for better skilled plays. Axe is basically just faceroll your keyboard for the Q-W-E-Q-Q combo and hope to win before mana runs out. (and if you're running anything but Adrenaline Rush on W vs range - you are already dead)

      So the obvious 2 "logical" solutions would be to further buff axe DMG (but I don't think its a good solution as that will make some other situations unbalanced) or simply give Axes more utility.

      Axe is the only weapon that does not have any interrupts. And this really hurts in solo and small scale (and ironically does not matter in large scale). On top of it - most other weapon who do have utility or interrupts - can bring DMG based armor pieces (boots or helmers) - while axe would be forced to bring CCimmunity/interrupts on boots/helmets - effectively losing the DPS that other weapons gain from those slots.

      Oh and the mana. Whole separate issue. You cant ran any other helmet - but scholar cawl, cuz you'll be out of mana so fast (or forced to run Lymhurst cape, but even the cape can't keep up), so then you'd need scholar boots to help the Lymhurst cape out.
      So its either:
      Sholar Cawl + custom boots + custom cape,
      or
      Lymhurst Cape + Scholar Shoes + custom helm (something with more DPS or utility or CCimmunity).

      Bear Paws suffer from being almost unusable in ZvZ unless you bring knight helmet (actually impossible to run it without knight helm), while being mediocre in small scale (same knight helm issue - as E gets cancelled by everything that sneezes) and in solo its very hard to land (trust me - I've tried and have gotten some skills, but it always feels like tossing a coin). Not to mention the decade old Bear Paw E "direction flip" bug.

      Also axe feels very gimmicky. Its nice to make "meme videos" going 1v5 "Poglog" style and clapping a group of trashy claw gankers in 4.1 gear - sure. But when it comes to real competitive PVP... the lack of CC immunity (or any other kind of utility, aside from healing reduction) really hurts.

      Why was CC immunity removed from W - Adrenaline Rush? Should that be brought back, now that the game changed so much, and we have a whole new line up of weapons and armors (especially more CC on the new Avalonian Robe of Purity)?
      Would that be a place to start?
    • Well, I fully agree to you, that if you compare axes to swords then something is wrong, at least in small scale ..

      Axes are subpar compared to swords..

      But..now big but..

      Every other weapon melee is crap compared to swords

      So either you push all melee weapons to the level of swords, especially carving

      Or

      You think that swords need to be a bit tuned down.. look at carving, nothing compare to it..
    • Hollywoodi wrote:

      Well, I fully agree to you, that if you compare axes to swords then something is wrong, at least in small scale ..

      Axes are subpar compared to swords..

      But..now big but..

      Every other weapon melee is crap compared to swords

      So either you push all melee weapons to the level of swords, especially carving

      Or

      You think that swords need to be a bit tuned down.. look at carving, nothing compare to it..
      i would rather see every other melee to get buffed to see more melee variety instead of nerfing swords
    • sorry but I have to wildly disagree.

      Axes Q has damage and antiheal.
      • Single target
      • AOE
      W slots give potential:
      • Antiheal
      • Resistance reduction
      • Damage amp
      • Movement restriction (internal bleed)
      • Mobility increase
      E slots offer:
      • True damage
      • Anti heal spread
      • Anti heal
      • Mobility increase
      • Self sustain
      • Heavy dot damage
      It's different from swords sure, but then that's swords. Axes have incredible utility at their disposal, in fact with such a degree of antiheal you could argue they are more utility focused than swords.

      As far as cc goes, mobility increase can be considered the same as mobility decrease of you opponent under many circumstances as it translates the same way.
      Hop on in to my Discord and Twitch ^^
    • As a returning axe player, I agree that currently, axe are (IMO) below both sword and spear in almost all situation.

      In small scale pvp, the nerf of the deadly chop hurt a lot, as it was a risky spell that allowed us to trade mobility for raw damage, allowing to trade over-agressive player effectively. I never pick the spell in pvp anymore, I don't feel like it's worth it. Adrenaline rush is the goto spell when you don't know what you're facing, but the damage output of axe has become really low, and with adrenaline rush you basically have a (pretty stupid) W - E combo that "burst", and then it's Q spell spamming. Overall, in small scale pvp, axes loose to almost everything. The whole axe tree is only really effective at solo fame farming currently...

      The new spinning axe spell make the halberd somewhat usable in 5v5, but it's far from "strong", just okay tier. Overall, it allow axe to regulary use Z - E combo for an okay amount of damage and some utility with bleed/heal reduction. Well used it effectively put pressure on the enemy team.

      In ZvZ, it's really bad. the locus/purge meta make soldier armor really difficult to use effectively, and overall, all strategy that rely on pushing in the axis of the zerg is doomed to fail, as you will have a hard time reaching the backlane, a harder time stacking any significant damage boost needed for you to be useful (spinning axe, soldier armor, assassin armor), and an even harder time coming back in the safety of your own zerg. All for pretty weak damage overall (wtf are those E damage on halberd ? I missed a few month of meta evolution, but how can it be so low now ?). The fact that we need to have 3 stack in order for the heal debuff to proc make it useless in ZvZ as we usually burst with E and Z first, and most of the time don't have the time to stack 3 bleed.
      I feel really useless in zerg, and stoped bringing axe at all (switched to locus, like everyone who play weapon tree that aren't zerg-compatible). I feel like the weapon could be useful with some cheesy surprise bombing build like assasin jacket/royal head, where you basically leave your zerg, find you way near the backlane of the enemy team, stack all your damage and land a E - Z combo with the bleeding Z spell. Yet, this playstyle is cheesy, situational and rely on huge cd. It's good for some cheeky youtube video, but not reliable enought to be brought in ZvZ.

      Overall, I feel like exept for fame farming, the whole axe tree is trash tiers everywhere but 5v5 where it's barely "ok tier". Don't have any magic solution, but I'd say that the raw damage output (wich used to be the strong point of the axes) is now really low, the utility brought by the anti heal is unreliable/weak in most situation, and overall the E spells aren't as strong as they should be.

      - One hand axe - always has been trash tiers, the heal and damage are both too low, at least one of the two need a buff for the weapon to be useful, but it has never been, so I dont have my hope up.

      - Greataxe : actually a really fun weapon, and can be pretty strong against unsuspecting player, but it's too easy to counter (any CC/cancel/sprint out/disengage ability make it useless. That's A LOT of counter). Plus, it does not synegize at all with the bleed mechanics, as landing a full E spell is longer than the bleed duration, effectively canceling all your stack.
      Many ways to buff it, you can pick more than one.
      1. Each damage tick of the E should reset the bleed stack, so that the spell synegize with the bleed mechanic instead of opposing it.
      2. Make it uninteruptible. You can still root, slow, sprint out of range of the ability, but at least it's not as easy to counter as it currently is.
      3. Allow the use of armor spell during the canalisation (head, chest, boot). Currently, you are exposed, and must cancel your damage in order to answer to wathever you opponent do during your canalisation. chest/head spell could allow you to use defensive to counter burst, boots to catch a fleeing target, etc, etc. If your opponent is good, he will answer to your E, give use the ability to answer back at him instead of just watching our whole E spell go to waste



      - Halberd : Used to be good. The damage aren't great at all, the mana sink is massive, effectively forcing us to play with scholar helm, or lymhurst + scholar shoes. usable in 5v5 but isn't that strong, weak in small scale/ZvZ. I'd say that it can be upped in many ways :

      1. E spell could add a single bleed stack. It would make it easier to reach 3 stack in ZvZ with a Q-E combo (Q 1 stack, E spread it and add one more, effectively reaching 3 stack) allowing Q-E-W combo to give actual utility to halberd in ZvZ fight with bleed + anti-heal.
      2. a little bit more damage on the E spell, maybe it's just me but I fell like it has been over-nerfed, (said it a lot, but the damage output is really low !)
      3. E spell could remove/reduce the duration of heal related buff on enemy by X second, emphasing on the utility of the weapon instead of improving it's raw damage. It would give option to halberd in small scale fight as it would effectively weaken mercenary/hellion jacket, and give a hard time to healer as druid would need to restack and holy would loose their holy blessing (but it's a faire trad when you juste used your big damage ability on a target that has +2XX armor !). Direct nerf to druid heal in ZvZ tho, despite it being already less popular than holy.
      When it come to artifact weapon, I'd say that scythe is in an okay situation, but suffer a lot from lag, as you usualy waste the E spell on a moving target that appear in range but actually isn't. (never have that issue with halberd btw, it's a scythe thing).

      Carioncaller has never really been good, the damages are way too low and the utility it give don't make up for it. Increasing the duration of the E bleed/debuff from 5 to 8 second would be a good step into making it a good pressure weapon. Maybe buff a bit the damage and/or the projectile speed too ?

      Bearpaw is kinda hard to land, and can be interrupted by almost everything. Damage aren't bad but not that strong either. You usually need a knight helm to land the E, and a Lymhurst cape for the mana. Maybe buff the true damage ? currently it's 30 true damage per tick for all tiers, could make it scale with ip, from 25/s at 775 ip up to 55/s at 1600 ip. Would be a nice way to make it more useful as a tank killing weapon, both in 5v5 and zerg fight.

      Also, this issue I reported here has a direct impact on the viability of axe in general : Improve the spell queue interaction with stun/bump.

      The post was edited 9 times, last by Sithi ().

    • yiconomics wrote:

      Axes are aoe damage. They don't need interrupt. Keep the interrupt on low dmg weapons or single target weapons. Don't put interrupt on giant AOE damage weapons. Axes/Halberd also have bleed and reduce healing.
      Axes are no different in AOE then any other weapon line. The only single target weapon is Battle axe (and thats a whole different discussion on its own). Swords have 4 AOE focused weapons (Carving, Clarent, Galatine, Dual) - Axe is only off by 1, but I don't even see how that is an argument, as you can't apply any AOE if you are CC'd or silenced or slowed or pushed. So is Curse (5 AOE and 1 single target), so is Frost and Fire (1 single target - the rest are AOE). Also I did not say axes specifically "need" an interrupt. It can be whatever else. But without this "whatever else" they are just a DPS weapon that can be easily countered, which makes it feel that the usability is very niche (either in group - where someone else will buff/cleanse you, or again - in group, were others will benefit from your healing debuffs, or in group - where people would benefit from your AOE).

      Axe has decent 1vN+1 potential (on paper) - but Carving and Spears (and arguably Warbows, but thats not a melee) arguably do it better.

      Khladraven wrote:

      sorry but I have to wildly disagree.

      Axes Q has damage and antiheal.


      Single target

      AOE
      W slots give potential:


      Antiheal

      Resistance reduction

      Damage amp

      Movement restriction (internal bleed)

      Mobility increase
      E slots offer:


      True damage

      Anti heal spread

      Anti heal

      Mobility increase

      Self sustain

      Heavy dot damage
      Yes - that looks like a very impressive "loaded" list. On paper though.
      In reality:
      Antiheal only works in groups (unless you are a masochist trying to 1v1 healers, in which case you will lose anyway, unless you are using Carrion caller, because the base Q heal reduction is just not enough). Battle Rush is the least used ability AFAIK (I can see a duration increased to maybe 6-7 sec making it actually useful in group fights, as you're giving up mobility)
      Resistance reduction only works in groups or 2v2 HG (still "grouped with 1 partner") or city duels. You are forced to run Adrenaline Rush in OW - because even my grandma on a wheelchair can kite you if you dont run Adrenaline Rush.
      Damage Amp (spinning blades?) - again really more of a group thing (in 1v1 you'll get kited out of it) or a "meme" poglog type build vs 5 claws in flat 4 gear
      Internal Bleed is nice, but again - really a group thing, because Deadly chop just deals more DMG to a single target. And it does not synergise with Hellion shoes on moving targets (by the time you blink out and use W - targets out of range)
      Mobility Increase - Adrenaline Rush, is the best W ability on Axes IMHO - as you can run it in all size (1v1, 2v2, 5v5, smallscale and ZvZ) - but its the only "best in slot" for solo.
      E slots:
      True DMG (bear Paws) - is nice on paper, but is not meant for solo (too buggy and easy to dodge), so was it meant for ZvZ? It does not work in ZvZ (which is what it was meant for?) as you get interrupted unless you run knight Helmet. Same story for small scale, and small scale is pretty niche and E is very hard to land (arguably even less clumps in small scale vs team that knows what they are doing). Should this be a thing for ZvZ if we can W+E combo with Immunity to CC either on E, but better on the W Adrenaline Rush?
      Anti heal spread - again, group ability
      Anti heal - been messing with it, but Carrioncaller deals the least amount of DMG out of entire Axe lineup. It really feels like a 2v2 HG or a 5v5 HG/cGvG weapon. Havent had the chance to test in 5v5 (since they fixed it in Queen patch), so cant comment on its viability.
      Mobility increase - Im assuming Whirlwind on Axe? Interruptible by anything that sneezes. Great PVE FF weapon, and nice to gank newbies who only bring crappy gear with no CC/interrupts. Overall I like it, but again - lack of utility means it auto-loses to Cultist Robe, Spears (and used to auto-lose to any sword in the sword line that ran Parry when it had a silence, thank god for that fix).

      Self sustain - BattleAxe looks fun on paper, but since we don't have true solo content, (the "solo we have is 1v2 1v3 usually) its kind of meh? Also works best in cloth, ironically - because the heal on E is actually based off of the DMG you deal, and the highest DMG you deal is when using cloth.

      Heavy dot damage - Im assuming Infernal Scythe - yes, my favorite weapon, and E is uninterruptible (thank gods). By itself its a great weapon, like all axes, auto-loses to Cultist Robes (because as I explained, you cannot run any interrupt as all your other slots will be taken up for mana regen), and nobody runs Judy boots in OW or solo.

      All axes suffer from the same issue - auto losing to Cultist Robe, which is super ironic - as you'd think that healing reduction would actually counter Cultist healing (its does not - as Cultist regen does not count as "healing" so even 100% healing debuff would not affect it) Which is not even the core of my complaint, I'd be down to continue auto-losing to Cultist, as long as I had some CC resistance on W or some of the other skills, like Bear Paws - fixed. Or if the mana cost was not as ridiculous - so that I could use other slots (like helmet) to actually carry some kind of silence or interrupt ability permanently (meaning not Running with Energy Shield in hopes to "be out of combat" to swap it to Force Field if I ever see Cultist and end up auto-losing if I don't get a chance to swap)

      Khladraven wrote:

      It's different from swords sure, but then that's swords. Axes have incredible utility at their disposal, in fact with such a degree of antiheal you could argue they are more utility focused than swords.
      Sure, we can argue they are more utility focused then swords (and I'll even agree with that statement) - but that utility is useless for like.... 70% of the situations (if we split solo and 5v5 and ZvZ at 33% each, again just for the sake of argument - antiheal only works in 33% of the cases - in 5v5, and has no use in ZvZ (from axes) or solo). Anti-heal in ZvZ is great on staff of balance, but thats a different story.
      So this not not the utility Im asking for.
      Im asking for utility that is applicable in... shit, 100% of situations like most swords, or any other utility (but not-anti-heal) skill really. CC is applicable in 100% of situations - therefore anti-CC is also applicable in 100% of situations by reciprocal logic.

      Khladraven wrote:

      As far as cc goes, mobility increase can be considered the same as mobility decrease of you opponent under many circumstances as it translates the same way.
      yes and no. Except when you are under a "movement speed buff" and get CC'd or stunned - that buff just goes to waste (5 sec move speed, a lot can happen in that 5 sec). Pure movement speed is okay... without CC immunity (like Adrenaline Rush used to be), it can be pretty useless.

      Cooldowns is another big problem. You'd think that a full mobility Axe can keep up with a bow? Wrong. Because Ray of light is 10 sec, and thats the least of your worries (cuz they can miss). If bow is running Frost Shot (15 sec CD, but 100% chance to hit on a melee target), its over.

      High mana cost = significant DPS loss because forced to lose DPS cape and/or forced to lose headpiece for mana (either Scholar or the more expensive Royal Cowl). So all that fancy DPS that looks so good on paper vs every other weapon gets caught up when all other builds run DPS capes (Thetford) and/or DPS helmets to add to that.

      Anyway - let me do one more quick TLDR - Im not saying Axe is bad (Im 400/400 and I love it), but it feels a but lackluster in the solo and ZvZ department (please don't say Halberd, its B of not C tier at best for ZvZ), and instead of asking to further buff DPS (which would be logical for a weapon that has no CC immunity and/or no stuns or interrupts, just pure speed) - "Damage Delivery" feels pretty lackluster. Your only reliable source is Adrenaline Rush on W - and thats putting all your eggs in 1 basket. If you get purged or stunned or enemy goes invis while you got Adrenaline for those 5 sec - its most likely going to be over for you.

      Again - I could be wring, and maybe I need to experiment a bit more, so Im all ears here (and would love to see more examples or ideas), and thanks @Khladraven for taking time to write this up btw!;)
    • The thing that is by far over the top is the ability of sword to stay on target and synergies with E

      As far as I understand sword, I have it on 400 but don't play it much, as it is simply not my weapon, I mostly play against it..

      If a sword is on you, it stays on you... +36% run speed perma ... That should be on daggers not on a sword

      Basically sword jumps you, then says W heroic, and then it is on you ..and stacks and stacks..

      And even purge makes no sense as it is right away on 3 stacks..

      As soon as it has the W generator heroic back it unloads, W, passive stacks and Q and has 3 stacks right again..

      Too easy to stack, always on target..

      The Axe needs to sacrifice a lot to be sometimes on target, while sword is on target for free

      That is the problem

      Compare to spear, it needs the slow q which is a skillshot to land, and you can get away from spear.. if spear is on focus it can catch up but spear at least glaive and 1 h loose damage if E, which need be fixed like pike.. anyway, spear and axe and dagger are subpar to sword as sword is always on target which is key for any melee

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Hollywoodi ().

    • No weapon counters everything, that is why you build to bolster weaknesses. Cloth helms offer utility and knockback for example, and have other sills available that work crazy well with axes.

      Swords I feel are just objectively overpowered in the current meta, and are best suited to the current state of the game. Trust me, it pains me too as a dagger player, at least axes have viability in 5v5 :(
      Hop on in to my Discord and Twitch ^^
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      Currently as its stands - axes have the least utility (CC immunity, interrupts or slows) on their skills. They have pretty good damage (still, similar to swords), but swords have so much more utility, that they basically feel like they outclass axes in most of situations and most sucky of all - swords allow for better skilled plays. Axe is basically just faceroll your keyboard for the Q-W-E-Q-Q combo and hope to win before mana runs out. (and if you're running anything but Adrenaline Rush on W vs range - you are already dead)

      So the obvious 2 "logical" solutions would be to further buff axe DMG (but I don't think its a good solution as that will make some other situations unbalanced) or simply give Axes more utility.

      Axe is the only weapon that does not have any interrupts. And this really hurts in solo and small scale (and ironically does not matter in large scale). On top of it - most other weapon who do have utility or interrupts - can bring DMG based armor pieces (boots or helmers) - while axe would be forced to bring CCimmunity/interrupts on boots/helmets - effectively losing the DPS that other weapons gain from those slots.

      Oh and the mana. Whole separate issue. You cant ran any other helmet - but scholar cawl, cuz you'll be out of mana so fast (or forced to run Lymhurst cape, but even the cape can't keep up), so then you'd need scholar boots to help the Lymhurst cape out.
      So its either:
      Sholar Cawl + custom boots + custom cape,
      or
      Lymhurst Cape + Scholar Shoes + custom helm (something with more DPS or utility or CCimmunity).

      Bear Paws suffer from being almost unusable in ZvZ unless you bring knight helmet (actually impossible to run it without knight helm), while being mediocre in small scale (same knight helm issue - as E gets cancelled by everything that sneezes) and in solo its very hard to land (trust me - I've tried and have gotten some skills, but it always feels like tossing a coin). Not to mention the decade old Bear Paw E "direction flip" bug.

      Also axe feels very gimmicky. Its nice to make "meme videos" going 1v5 "Poglog" style and clapping a group of trashy claw gankers in 4.1 gear - sure. But when it comes to real competitive PVP... the lack of CC immunity (or any other kind of utility, aside from healing reduction) really hurts.

      Why was CC immunity removed from W - Adrenaline Rush? Should that be brought back, now that the game changed so much, and we have a whole new line up of weapons and armors (especially more CC on the new Avalonian Robe of Purity)?
      Would that be a place to start?
      I totally agree with pretty much everything in this discussion: since i started playing Albion, i always had struggle in playing axes (i am a greataxe main) and the problem are always the same: no cc, very low mobility, too much easy counterplay. When about 3 months go they announced a new skill for axe's tree i was really excited, but they just added damage over damage. No real improvement to the weapon. If they would added something like the spear new W an AOE RANGED SLOW, would be so awesome, but unfortunatly was not. Axes are the tree that u can rush to kill fresh people in yellow and sometimes in red zones, but you don't have a chance with players that have a minimum experience time. In reality, you can't even run them in ARENA, because people just look at your build and laugh hard. What they could do is buffing Adrenalin Rush making it unstoppable again or deleting and making a completly new W skill, because hwt others one are almost never used in ANY situation.
    • Sithi wrote:

      In ZvZ, it's really bad. the locus/purge meta make soldier armor really difficult to use effectively, and overall, all strategy that rely on pushing in the axis of the zerg is doomed to fail, as you will have a hard time reaching the backlane, a harder time stacking any significant damage boost needed for you to be useful (spinning axe, soldier armor, assassin armor), and an even harder time coming back in the safety of your own zerg. All for pretty weak damage overall (wtf are those E damage on halberd ? I missed a few month of meta evolution, but how can it be so low now ?). The fact that we need to have 3 stack in order for the heal debuff to proc make it useless in ZvZ as we usually burst with E and Z first, and most of the time don't have the time to stack 3 bleed.
      I feel really useless in zerg, and stoped bringing axe at all (switched to locus, like everyone who play weapon tree that aren't zerg-compatible). I feel like the weapon could be useful with some cheesy surprise bombing build like assasin jacket/royal head, where you basically leave your zerg, find you way near the backlane of the enemy team, stack all your damage and land a E - Z combo with the bleeding Z spell. Yet, this playstyle is cheesy, situational and rely on huge cd. It's good for some cheeky youtube video, but not reliable enought to be brought in ZvZ.
      Absolutely agreed. Axe has no ZvZ weapon, and Halberd has no burst (its 2nd lowest burst after Carrioncaller). If people think "Halberd can burst" - Infernal Scythe does it better and Bear Paws is mostly DOT based (No burst) and easily countered. And AFAIK - DOTs dont scale with AOE escalation? So while Bear Paws has the highest burst of all Axes - its useless in ZvZ due to no AOE escalation on DOTs.

      Sithi wrote:

      Overall, I feel like exept for fame farming, the whole axe tree is trash tiers everywhere but 5v5 where it's barely "ok tier". Don't have any magic solution, but I'd say that the raw damage output (wich used to be the strong point of the axes) is now really low, the utility brought by the anti heal is unreliable/weak in most situation, and overall the E spells aren't as strong as they should be.
      Yep. And for 5v5 - only Halberd works.

      Sithi wrote:

      - Greataxe : actually a really fun weapon, and can be pretty strong against unsuspecting player, but it's too easy to counter (any CC/cancel/sprint out/disengage ability make it useless. That's A LOT of counter). Plus, it does not synegize at all with the bleed mechanics, as landing a full E spell is longer than the bleed duration, effectively canceling all your stack.
      yes, the Q stack bleeds don't last with Greataxe E - so it actually deals less DMG then most ppl think.

      Sithi wrote:

      - Halberd : Used to be good. The damage aren't great at all, the mana sink is massive, effectively forcing us to play with scholar helm, or lymhurst + scholar shoes. usable in 5v5 but isn't that strong, weak in small scale/ZvZ. I'd say that it can be upped in many ways :
      Halberd (ironically - due to 15 sec CD), has the highest DPS over "infinite time" compared to all other axes. This does not work in ZvZ (as that is burst focused, and you don't just stand in 1 spot spamming skills) and does not work in solo, as solo fights all last under 1 min, and actually right around 30-40 sec. (see chart below for more DMG comparisons). So Halberd only really works in a fight that lasts 1min + as that is where its DPS will really ramp up, and that is mostly 5v5 type matches.

      Sithi wrote:

      When it come to artifact weapon, I'd say that scythe is in an okay situation, but suffer a lot from lag, as you usualy waste the E spell on a moving target that appear in range but actually isn't. (never have that issue with halberd btw, it's a scythe thing).
      Scythe takes about 1 sec to charge up and fire off the E. I never had an issue with it, but I also play with ping around 30ms, so I can see how other people wiht 100+ ping might have issues. And yes - Halberd E is instant cast, so does not suffer from any ping based issues.

      Sithi wrote:

      Carioncaller has never really been good, the damages are way too low and the utility it give don't make up for it. Increasing the duration of the E bleed/debuff from 5 to 8 second would be a good step into making it a good pressure weapon. Maybe buff a bit the damage and/or the projectile speed too ?
      Carrioncaller started working with the new Healing debuff Avalonian items (highlighting the fact that alone - without these new items, Carrioncaller was still bad). But the problem with the new Avalonian Hood of Tenacity (leather) is that is available to everyone. So instead of making Axes as the "niche" healing debuff weapon - they placed the bulk of it on a helmet that anyone can use.

      So a Dual Sword (or Carving) with Hood of Tanacity will still > Carrioncaller with Hood of Tanacity in small scale or 2v2.

      Here is a chart I had put together:



      Keep in mind 4 things:
      1) I used pre-Queen tiers, as that was before the t5-t8 IP buff, and it was just easier to compare. A t5 relic artifact (Bear Paws) was equal to a t8 non-relic weapon (Halberd) in Q and W skill DMG scaling.
      2) Autoattack damage is not factored into this chart (so the Carving DPS is actually higher here, due to 36% bonus, but I had no way of factoring that in)
      3) Resistance shred from Carving E or from Axe W (which is what Im running here for the chart maths) is not factored in, so again, on paper this looks bad for Carving, but does not reflect the reality.
      4) I calculated true damage as DMGx2, as that is "eyball" for when comparing true DMG to all other DMG. Armor and resists usually reduce your DMG output by about 50%, so ignoring that would be roughly like multiplying DMG x2. This checks out - as Bear Paws should be having the highest burst (and according to my math - they do), but of course DOT(bleed) based and still over "infinite" time their overall DPS is shit (lowest then all of axes) due to that horrible 30 sec CD on E.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Captainrussia ().

    • Battle Rush is just an awful, awful miscarriage of a W ability for what it offers. Also really wished the bear paws E leap had a similar thing with the Spectral Trident E leap where you were immune while jumping forward. Rending Bleeds from multiple axes no longer stacking because of the healing reduction change also means that multiple halberds are basically worthless in ZvZ combat.
    • Few things to remember on axe vs swords.

      Axe Q is superior in every way apart from mobility, due to dots and heal reduction.

      Axe has some great W abilities, internal bleeding is really strong, the raging blades is also dumb if you look passed the mana costs.

      Axe excels as bruiser in soldier armor in comparison, due to the dot damage still being strong even when your R is down or purged, a purged sword in soldier is literally no threat.
      This is why halberd soldier armor is so good, its steady dps regardless of your fury stacks.

      That being said, I don't consider axe to be a 1v1 weapon, or a good 1v1 choice vs swords.

      But all weapons have there own role/niche right?

      You also wouldn't zvz with a spear, but 1v1 they will shred you.

      Similarly you wouldn't 1v1 with an arcane, but zvz they are top tier.

      All about the roles
    • Throatcutter wrote:

      Few things to remember on axe vs swords.

      Axe Q is superior in every way apart from mobility, due to dots and heal reduction.

      Axe has some great W abilities, internal bleeding is really strong, the raging blades is also dumb if you look passed the mana costs.


      I think this is exactly the main issue: everything you reported are just damage ability, nothing more. Yes, on paper axes has a very high damage output but in practice you are not able to use it because 95% of the times you struggle in sticking to the target/targets. As someone already said, when you build axes you are forced to rush cc ability in chest or head slot because you don't have in your kit, and is the only way to compensate the fact you have very low mobility. The heal reduction everyone's fear is only applied when a target reached 3 bleeding stacks, that means 3 axe's Q with 3 second cd each (because no one use single target Q and the only other healing reduction is on W damageless dash or on Carrion's E, that is actually the worse tree's weapon). I would trade IMMEDIATLY that healing reduction for some ACTUAL utility, like: why when reaching three stacks target get a slow for few seconds? Or even better, each bleed stack slow the more stacks you have on the target? Seems fair to me knowing that swords' courage stacks give you damage, attack speed AND movement speed, or spear's Q slowing AoE and giving you extra damage. Right now the healing reduction is very lame.
    • I don't actually know what are you meaning because i have never mentioned axe's mana costs ( and i think they are not this bad even if, of course, swords and spears are way better but whatever). Instead, if you're saying that dealing damage is a considerable utility i think all weapons do it, but every ones (without counting axes ofc) bring something more. I repeat, if the healing reduction would be stronger or more easy to apply i could not complain at all, but at the moment i don't feel to be able cut off someone's sustain. Let's take a real-life example: during a regular dungeon clear i once got dived by a couple carving sword/great druid staff. Even if i immediatly applied the healing debuff (using Helbard) the druid managed to outsustain my damage even if the carving man was not running any healing stuff or guardian helmet neither. I was really pissed off because if axes utility is to cut healing received, i think they need a huge change or at least a buff.