Red flag hunting Faction flag in yellow zone

    • Red flag hunting Faction flag in yellow zone

      I made a post about this formally in the feedback & Suggestions section, but I wanted to go a step further to provide some context to elaborate on the issue. The context I provide might be considered a rant so I chose to split the post to maintain decorum in the feedback post. Feedback post here if you would like to provide your input.

      I have recently stepped away from taking part in large ZvZ fights due to the impact of AoE escalation on these fights. Those fights are nearly always decided by Galas suicide diving the backline or beamed Weepings and brimstone. The fight rely heavily on spike damage, rather and attrition.

      I decided to seek out solo and smaller scale fights. I have found some luck in faction flagging and going to the zones directly outside opposed cities city.

      But this content is often spoiled by Hostile flags in the yellow zone. The hostiles can run any gear and the only risk of loss is the repair bill for getting downed. Often this gear is a very high tier and accompanied with rare mounts. These well geared hostile players are almost always accompanied by a faction flagged player to show up to execute the downed faction flagged player.

      youtu.be/tpGu682FxzY

      In this clip I started Ft. Sterling went to Thetford, then Martlock, and ended in Bridgewatch. Thetford was empty, But bridgewatch also had a similar group active.

      This is also a large issue in faction ZvZ fight where a Hostile flag will run in and go for a big suicide clap and risk losing nothing.

      Trade missions are also unjustly punished by mechanic
    • I don't have any great ideas to fix it, but the things that have come to my mind are:
      1. No hard flags in yellow- Not a great idea because there would be no tranitional zone for blue to Red.
      2. faction players cannot be executed- Not great because this would give faction player the option to run into mob packs when low in order to enter a non-executable state.
      3. Add a severe reputation penalty to any red flag player that has an assist to a kill in a yellow zone. Lets say -10,000 rep if I'm just throwing ideas out there.-I think this is best idea. I believe could be incremented easily.
      4. Hostile flag can't damage faction flag. I generally don't like this option.

      I know SBI has mentioned a Royal rework would follow Queen and it would include the faction system. I find it disconcerting how easily the game mechanics are being exploited. If they intend to expand on faction they should have an answer to this. If there already have a solution they are waiting to employ in a later patch I think a serious argument could be made to hotfix this issue now.
    • Hey there,

      we are aware of this issues and are looking at various ways this could be fixed.

      There are different ways in principle to tackle this. Here are a few possibilities - all with pros and cons:

      1. Change the system such that red flagged players can be executed in yellow zones. That would fix the issue. The downside is that it would prevent the open world knockdown PvP between reds that can in theory happen in yellow zones. Does anybody here have a good feeling for how popular this actually is?

      2. Change the system such that red flagged players cannot attack faction players in yellow zones. That would be very odd in our view as it's quite inconsistent.

      3. Change the system such that faction warfare in itself in yellow and blue zones becomes knockdown only. Rewards for being faction flagged in yellow and blue would be lowered and would be increased in the red zones accordingly. We'd also set up a solution that still allows trade packs to be looted just as before. What's interesting here is that - come the improved faciton warfare system planned in one of our upcoming updates - it could become a very good training ground to help players to eventually transition to full loot PvP proper.

      Which one of these would you prefer and why? Any other ideas? Please let us know.
    • What about if u knock down in yellow zone you become immune to executions?

      That solves it all, and is the least to change?

      Look, current abuse is red knock down faction flag. Faction flag is helpless, enemy faction flag gets called in to execute

      U break this chain as soon as red knocks down in yellow faction flagged it gets while knockdown and standup immunity to execution..

      Done
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      we are aware of this issues and are looking at various ways this could be fixed.

      There are different ways in principle to tackle this. Here are a few possibilities - all with pros and cons:

      1. Change the system such that red flagged players can be executed in yellow zones. That would fix the issue. The downside is that it would prevent the open world knockdown PvP between reds that can in theory happen in yellow zones. Does anybody here have a good feeling for how popular this actually is?

      2. Change the system such that red flagged players cannot attack faction players in yellow zones. That would be very odd in our view as it's quite inconsistent.

      3. Change the system such that faction warfare in itself in yellow and blue zones becomes knockdown only. Rewards for being faction flagged in yellow and blue would be lowered and would be increased in the red zones accordingly. We'd also set up a solution that still allows trade packs to be looted just as before. What's interesting here is that - come the improved faciton warfare system planned in one of our upcoming updates - it could become a very good training ground to help players to eventually transition to full loot PvP proper.

      Which one of these would you prefer and why? Any other ideas? Please let us know.
      out of simplicity i personally think the last option would be the best, especially considering how useful it would be to new players in order to introduce them gradually to the faction warfare unique pvp system.
    • Thanks for the input Korn. To respond to your points
      1. I do not think red flagging for PvP in yellow is common other than hunting faction players. I De-faction flagged and went afk for 2 hrs and was left alone in the middle of Eldon Hill outside Martlock. I like the fact there are these transitional yellow zones, I'm glad its there for new players. Would it be possible that when a red player gets downed in a yellow zone they have a chance to drop part of their gear/loot they are wearing. Much like the trash rate for a red downing a blue in these zones. Or perhaps we could click on their downed body and select one item from them before their inventory is locked from looting. Something to make it a partial loot drop for red flags in yellow. Not sure if this i technically feasible,
        • Little off topic: I think a scrim option for open world maps would be appreciated and employed more than red flagging in yellow. Perhaps use maps that were fan favorites from the old map, like torrid.
        • I like this idea, if its full loot or partial loot drop.
      I want to provide some more input for the next 2 points. The faction system is really neat because it creates a situations where you are able to become the ally of any other players in the game with the same flag and you can quickly become the enemy of opposed factions. I have previously been a part of guilds with mandatory CTAs. Often when these guild had a CTA with no fights we would turn to factions to find one. We would pick a City, then run to the gates of the next closest City's Yellow Zone. With a blob on the map and our forces at the gate; The opposing city quickly creates a force or randomly assorted players. With more coming in as guilds and alliance call out the fight. These are some of the most fun fights I've done. You got to seem some weird non-meta builds and fun plays. The enemy is typically very unorganized, but constantly receiving reinforcement and returners. Winning the fights was not the intent, just seeing how long you could hold out until you lost too many to attrition and got overwhelmed.

      2. This was actually the idea we overlapped on. If you chose not to proceed with the first option you detailed(or my partial drop idea). I think this would be the fairest way to address the issue. I've done quite a few faction ZvZ fights with guilds that were spoiled because 1 or 2 individuals just didn't like us and decided to red flag and dive our back lines every 3 min.
      • I like this idea since it would remove situations where only one side is taking a risk while the opposing side takes none. I think there is little argument for the need to go after faction players specifically.


      3. I really like massing up faction with my friends and then going to find a fight at the city gates. If yellow/blue became knockdown only I'm not sure these quick massing fights at the gates would happen anymore. I think an issue with creating a situation where gear loss is not possible it there is too much incentive to run the very best gear you can get your hands on. Trade pack running would turn into vets Running mammoth and other transport mounts unkillable to new players on slow mounts with low bank rolls and specs and weaker new players running packs and getting Nuked by high spec/gear vets. A few people with siege balista would be able to shutdown a zone.
      • I'm not really a fan of this one. I may may have gotten a bit overdramatic with my hypothetical. Its seems like this possibility you propose also takes into account future plans I am not privy too. So it may be better than the credit I am giving it.


      I appreciate that you are looking into it and responded to my concern.

      And you other rascals

      Owlsane wrote:

      What about red flagged can be killed by faction flagged in yellow zone? @Korn
      Your suggesting that everyone that takes on a flagged state(city or hostile) be full loot to each other in any zone. This would result in the Hostile flag being the most vulnerable flag since it could be downed by a blue and then executed by any other flag in the yellow/blue zone. This would create a situation where reds would not want to linger long in yellow/blue zone.

      I think this is the best solution, since it could provide consistency. When you take on any flag you open yourself to full-loot to other flags. Blue players not opting in would be the only ones to receive the favorable downed state on a PvP death.


      Hollywoodi wrote:

      What about if u knock down in yellow zone you become immune to executions?
      Better than the current system for sure, but there is still quite a bit or room to exploit the system. Potentially, You could use hostile flags to get them low and then finish the kill before they are downed a faction flag. This would require more risk to be taken on, but I think a more definitive solution is possible.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by combatsandwich: I re-read the post and some parts needed edited for clarity. I'm sure its still going to be hard to read. English is my first language, but I use it like its my third. ().

    • combatsandwich wrote:

      Owlsane wrote:

      What about red flagged can be killed by faction flagged in yellow zone? @Korn
      Your suggesting that everyone that takes on a flagged state(city or hostile) be full loot to each other in any zone. This would result in the Hostile flag being the most vulnerable flag since it could be downed by a blue and then executed by any other flag in the yellow/blue zone. This would create a situation where reds would not want to linger long in yellow/blue zone.
      I think this is the best solution, since it could provide consistency. When you take on any flag you open yourself to full-loot to other flags. Blue players not opting in would be the only ones to receive the favorable downed state on a PvP death.
      Mmh yea didn't saw that way. You're right rascal, this way is not the right way.
    • I would suggest a solution you did not list @Korn. Red flagging in general should be removed from the game. This solves your faction problem in blue/yellow and provides a more interesting dynamic to red zone play. To prevent the abuse of reds turning into massive gank fest introduce a stronger reputation penalty to control red zone PvP. More so increase a scaling rep penalty for "ganging" up on smaller group opponents. For example if the standard rep loss is 1k on a kill for a 1v1 fight make the rep loss 3x that amount for every kill where the ratio is higher than 1 to 1 applied to all killing party players. Example below. By dramatically increasing the rep loss to group ganking of solo players in red it should offset the removal of the flag system and also encourage red zones to be a play of solo/small scale "more fair" encounters.

      1 to 1 Ratio: Standard 1,000 rep loss applied to killing player
      2 to 1 Ratio: 3,000 rep loss applied to each killing player
      3 to 1 Ratio: 6,000 rep loss applied to each killing player
      4 to 1 Ratio: 9,000 rep loss applied to each killing player
      5 to 1 Ratio: 12,000 rep loss applied to each killing player
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      we are aware of this issues and are looking at various ways this could be fixed.

      There are different ways in principle to tackle this. Here are a few possibilities - all with pros and cons:

      1. Change the system such that red flagged players can be executed in yellow zones. That would fix the issue. The downside is that it would prevent the open world knockdown PvP between reds that can in theory happen in yellow zones. Does anybody here have a good feeling for how popular this actually is?

      2. Change the system such that red flagged players cannot attack faction players in yellow zones. That would be very odd in our view as it's quite inconsistent.

      3. Change the system such that faction warfare in itself in yellow and blue zones becomes knockdown only. Rewards for being faction flagged in yellow and blue would be lowered and would be increased in the red zones accordingly. We'd also set up a solution that still allows trade packs to be looted just as before. What's interesting here is that - come the improved faciton warfare system planned in one of our upcoming updates - it could become a very good training ground to help players to eventually transition to full loot PvP proper.

      Which one of these would you prefer and why? Any other ideas? Please let us know.
      For short term solution and taking the yellow zone red flagged fights for training purpose into account, only the second option seems valid.

      For longer term, with maybe inprovement to faction warfare (and the possibility for further red zones) option 3 looks also valid.

      Option 1 would indeed solve the problem directly but is such a heavy change that i guess you get more people complaining about it than you got about the current problem. (in fact it would change the yellow zone to a red zone)
    • @Korn

      This was also discussed here: T5 red zones back to yellow
      I think the short term solution is to make reds killable by factions (not by everyone though) and protect them with an invulnerability if downed in yellow zones.

      You should link the problem with the gate ganking which became a default activity in red zones as the pk "vital" space was shrinked when the T5 reds were reverted to yellow.
      I have no clue about how economically beneficial for the whole game this activity is. However my feeling is that there aren't that many pks in red zones (yellow-red map interfaces excepted).
      Whatever your decision/fix is, it should not make the situation more fragile for the reds in red zones.
    • Simple and best way to fix this would be: If a player is knocked-down by a "red flagged" player that person becomes "blocked" from faction execute, This would fix all your problem without taking away from other things, I don't think allowing faction flagged players to be knocked down in yellow or blue zones in a good fix because most good faction fights take place in yellow zones to start with, Making yellow zones only knock-down for faction would break that content so please do not change that!

      Also want to add on a side note rep loss should increase on out numbered fights, If you fight someone 1v1,2v2,3v3 the fights should remain the same REP loss for both sides but if the fights are 2 vs 5 and 5 vs 10 for example the rep loss for the 5 and 10 players should be much higher then the players with less numbers. This would make people want to fight more even fights I believe or at the very least help. A group of 20 red flags will not want to kill 1 player if they all lose 5 to 10k rep over the current 1k.
    • Zynthia wrote:

      this ahs been happening since faction got released and all you get from chatmods are "not a bug, it is working as intented" so simple fix let people be people and spend time and effort fixing the real problems
      Like every issue in the game, it takes like 2 years to finaly tackle on it. So it's about god damn fking time i guess...

      Also looks like SBI disagree with you about the importance of fixing this issue. But hey, you do you.
    • Owlsane wrote:

      Zynthia wrote:

      this ahs been happening since faction got released and all you get from chatmods are "not a bug, it is working as intented" so simple fix let people be people and spend time and effort fixing the real problems
      Like every issue in the game, it takes like 2 years to finaly tackle on it. So it's about god damn fking time i guess...
      Also looks like SBI disagree with you about the importance of fixing this issue. But hey, you do you.
      i mean considering its been an issue since the start i dont see how they could be aware since people have complained since the very beginning, and well i think u put too much trust in them actually "fixing" it, they jsut say sure we know and will look into it and then when it blows over they put the thumb right back up where it was 2 years ago
    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      we are aware of this issues and are looking at various ways this could be fixed.

      There are different ways in principle to tackle this. Here are a few possibilities - all with pros and cons:

      1. Change the system such that red flagged players can be executed in yellow zones. That would fix the issue. The downside is that it would prevent the open world knockdown PvP between reds that can in theory happen in yellow zones. Does anybody here have a good feeling for how popular this actually is?

      2. Change the system such that red flagged players cannot attack faction players in yellow zones. That would be very odd in our view as it's quite inconsistent.

      3. Change the system such that faction warfare in itself in yellow and blue zones becomes knockdown only. Rewards for being faction flagged in yellow and blue would be lowered and would be increased in the red zones accordingly. We'd also set up a solution that still allows trade packs to be looted just as before. What's interesting here is that - come the improved faciton warfare system planned in one of our upcoming updates - it could become a very good training ground to help players to eventually transition to full loot PvP proper.

      Which one of these would you prefer and why? Any other ideas? Please let us know.
      How about option 1 but that after being executed you don't drop your items? That way Yellow zone rules still apply. Only downside I can think of is that people might start using this for fast traveling. So to prevent this you can add another rule. If you get executed while being red you do not get the option to choose where you spawn (home or last city) but you automatically spawn at the closest city. So you can't have your home set at your Island which is in Fort Sterling for ex. and get killed near Bridgewatch and then spawn at FS. Nope, you spawn at Bridgewatch. Plus you don't prevent red fights. You just make them run back which is arguably better then just kneeling there for almost 3 minutes.

      One more suggestion. Put a timer on faction flagging. If you flag for one faction make it so that you can't flag for another faction for an hour for example.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Worros ().