There's virtually no point to melee in this game.

    • There's virtually no point to melee in this game.

      I've tried to make these posts multiple times and I just get frustrated. I feel like a lot of it is based on my limited experience or knowledge, but when I see so much of the game tilted in one direction I can't help but wonder why. Albion isn't a game system that allows me to casually test out such extreme differences in power under a variety of circumstances, so my opinion is always going to be biased by my experience.

      1) Cloth is way, way more powerful than other armors. Leather Armor, for the most part, is entirely worthless. Yes, there are a few abilities here and there that dictate making choices and there are meta examples in every category; but Cloth far beyond outweighs Leather in terms of fighting and Plate has almost no use for small engagement fights and is basically dictated exlusively for tanking (and thus has even less use in my opinion). Mainly focusing on Chest pieces (Robes/Jacket/Armor) because they provide overall the biggest impacts on combat, Robes are bar-none the best for everything. The defense increase in Plate and Leather do not correlate into combat effectiveness to outweigh the massive jumps in damage Cloth provides, and then there's the problem that most Robe abilities are the strongest defensive spells in the game and almost all of them are insanely useful.

      Consider that Mage Robe, for instance, gives you a passive 58% damage increase. Then it gives you an 8 Second passive that purges people repeatedly every time you take damage from that source, and that also raises your defensives on-par with Plate armor. Even if you wanted to use something like Soldier Armor for the 10% Damage Bonus and slightly better defensives, the fully-stacked Fury ability barely gives you more damage (and CC duration, but still) and thus is almost entirely pointless. Yes, plate armor shouldn't be strictly used for damage, but the defense is so minimal that it doesn't seem to turn the tide of battle regardless. On the whole, Leather Jacket abilities are almost worthless. There's one or two in there, like Merc jacket for the heal on DPS builds (which is generally the single only worthwhile Leather armor) or maybe even Hellion Jacket for the AOE health drain; but these are almost completely worthless in comparison because you're losing 20-30% damage bonuses for what seems like completely worthless defensive bonuses. So what you see in almost any fight besides maybe some PvE is a bunch of robe users and then a few tank users. Small scale? Hell gates? ZvZ? It's absolutely ruled by Cloth because of it's high damage bonuses, the fact that defense doesn't matter, and then awesome abilities on top of that. This is less pronounced with Helm or Boot options because they impact your stats less and are used exclusively for the abilities, but it shows just how glaringly unbalanced the armor abilities are. Yes, there are some minor points where maybe you could appreciate the effect of Specter Jacket or Stalker Jacket, but they are far and few between and far behind things like Cultist Robe, Cleric Robe, or Mage Robe. Every time I fight against somebody they're going to be using a cloth armor and I'm going to be using it as well because it'll give me more damage and the defensive boosts and abilities of Leather aren't worth picking over it and this feels like a design problem. I feel like some abilities between Robes and Leather need to be switched around or even reworked, because right now Leather barely lands on the Radar and Plate is... Plate is probably in a worse spot to be honest. Plate is used either exclusively as a small-group Tank effect to boost your team or some kind of cheese build using Knight Armor for the CC effect while you're ratting. You're never going to lose to a melee DPS wearing it because they can't deal the damage and the defense just isn't good enough to warrant it.

      2) Because of this, it feels like Melee is almost pointless. There is no, "Melee DPS". There's, "somewhat useful Melee weapon that compliments our ranged and might counter one or two of the enemy's abilities". For the last year I've seen, "1H Dagger is the highest DPS in the game" but it's not used in any content and I don't think this was ever effectively proven, and even then: is it worth using over a Bow? Yes, there are several melee weapons in the game that are powerful: but these seem to bounce around wildly between being useful and being an incredibly small niche. And on top of that, any time I see a Melee damage dealer, it's most likely wearing a robe for the massive damage increases because if not you're going to die instantly to any ranged attacker. Ranged in this game is absurd because of the armor system, they're dealing more damage per hit while attacking much faster before they even engage in melee... and then they just stand in place and DPS. Or, on the alternative, you walk forward a bit and blow all of your abilities in 2-3 seconds and then walk away dealing massive amounts of damage with burst. No matter what I write here it doesn't matter because everybody is going to point out the one melee DPS build like a one-shot spear or something that is useful, but it seems like every patch they absolutely destroy that build and moves onto something else. Melee is so volatile in it's effectiveness, and it makes me wonder what the point is why I can take basically any melee weapon and find a ranged that's far safer and more effective.


      Why would I ever use, for instance, Dagger Pair? Crossbow has a similar effect that doesn't require me build up multiple stacks, is at range, and there are builds that make it's effect near-instant. The small damage bonus from Slit Throat isn't worth the time and effort, and then Crossbows have far better Q and W abilities suited for combat. Don't want to use a Crossbow? 1H Curse is also acceptable as a single-target nuke, with a fast stack build up and absolutely obscene damage that they can do while kiting you. There's just no room for the weapon when there are multiple other things that do a far better job. This can be seen all over the Destiny Board and it's infuriating. Usually in games Ranged and Melee is balanced by Ranged being more of a glass cannon, but in Albion it's effortless to put on a bunch of armor that gives you a ton of defensive/sustain abilities and also gives you a bunch of damage and your weapon just needs to do the most damage. Dagger Pair isn't even bad, but there are so many effects in the game to counter it's E it's pointless, and this carries over to a variety of other weapons. Dual Sword is another example of a weapon who's entire design is countered by every other armor ability in the game. I'm not even talking about, "oh you just deal less damage"; I'm saying something simple like, "switching your cloth helm ability completely nullifies the attack and puts it on cooldown and causes you to instantly win". Which reminds me, why are there so many blatant anti-melee abilities in this game?

      Oh joy, I just played another Arena where the enemy had 4 ranged and we had 3 melee. We lost every single engagement. Every person on their team was wearing Cleric or Mage robe. I stand corrected: just remove Melee from the game. There is not a single damage dealing melee weapon that is as effective as a bow or crossbow and the only reason to ever use them is as a niche counter to a problem you could solve with an armor ability. I wasted hours and hours of my life grinding Daggers/Swords/Leather armor, and I'm simply done. I don't care if you feel that I'm wrong because one time you beat a Crossbow that dived you; in small group fights and ZvZ ranged and king and that's all the game is balanced around and there's no point in using Melee until you can slap a fat roll in the keyboard and automatically execute any target remotely close to you like Ranged can. Just because a gimmick works once or twice doesn't mean it's viable and Ranged doesn't have to rely on gimmicks to spam Qs that deal 700 damage and win every fight.
    • Fusionbomb wrote:

      i disagree with pretty much everything u wrote
      Good for you. That doesn't change anything. Leather is still worthless, the abilities are weak and losing 30% of your damage isn't worth going from taking 54 damage an arrow to 46 damage an arrow. Ranged DPS is an absolute requirement, while Melee is just a thing you use when you can't fill a slot.

      Owlsane wrote:

      The title is enough for me to tell you that you're completely and objectively wrong
      And yet I've never once seen, "man, we need melee dps" or, "we lost because we had no melee dps" because that isn't a thing, but I've seen this multiple times in favor of ranged. You clump less on ranged making it dominant in ZvZ, you deal higher damage while being away from the target, and most of the time even if somebody is within melee distance you can stand there and DPS your target down. There is nothing my Broadsword or Dagger Pair does that a Crossbow doesn't do better, from burst damage to interruptions. A crossbow will out perform me every single time, and that doesn't even factor in smart players that can kite you and ignore 100% of your melee damage and kill you for free even with hundreds of IP less.

      There's a Cloth armor in the game with a 7 second duration and a 30 second cooldown that automatically knocks away anything remotely close to you 12 meters away and deals damage while having 58% more damage. You cannot lose a fight against melee now. That's good game balance.
    • My argument for plate: it gives your healer more time to react. A lot of fights are about smashing someone quicker than they + their healer can react and that's easier if they're in robes.

      My argument for melee: I feel like the breakdown is that staff types are best for zergs. They tend to have high alpha strikes but give them fewer targets or put pressure on them and their DPS goes way down. They don't tend to excel at chasing runners, either. Melee, though, has a lot more abilities meant to work on the fly and meant to keep you in range of your target (by slowing them down, speeding you up or both). Staff users can knock people low but melee tends to be what finishes them off in an open environment.

      My argument for tanks: you don't want a ton of them but one guy with good melee + plate can be the glue that keeps a target from getting away and/or ends up finishing them off under fire while the clothies have to jump away for a heal. The ability to weather damage and keep applying snares and damage is handy for at least some people in your group to have.

      But:

      Acoustic wrote:

      t these seem to bounce around wildly between being useful and being an incredibly small niche
      "Every weapon is a niche weapon: change my mind."

      One of my guildies was trying to play a more traditional tank, swapping in and out sword and crossbow as required. That's not really what this game is about though, and it doesn't support it. It's pretty much about shallow niches and either playing to your niche or using it as a niche in group-play where all needed niches are covered.

      What's great for ZvZ can easily suck 1v1. What's great in 1v1 can be lackluster 5v5 and guaranteed death in ZvZ.

      More to your original point, melee isn't useless. It's niche, like everything else in this game.
    • Acoustic wrote:

      Why would I ever use, for instance, Dagger Pair? Crossbow has a similar effect that doesn't require me build up multiple stacks
      this is kinda yikes that you type that question yet you create thread like this LOL

      Acoustic wrote:

      . Even if you wanted to use something like Soldier Armor for the 10% Damage Bonus and slightly better defensives, the fully-stacked Fury ability barely gives you more damage (and CC duration, but still) and thus is almost entirely pointless

      soldier armor is broken, its op, "slightly better defensives" dude its plate armor hello

      Acoustic wrote:

      1) Cloth is way, way more powerful than other armors.
      this is mostly true, pretty much melee use plate or cloth only, since leather is next to worthless besides having certain skill





      Once you add a healer to your entire post your entire theory fails
    • Here is the actual truth op. Melee weapons are currently not as good arranged weapons. They need buffs and stand times on abilities removed .And yes cloth armor is way better than leather this has been known since release. Cloth is objectively better than leather even for melee. However this can change based on niche situations, such as 5v5 fights such as hell gates, where u want your bruiser in leather armor usually hellion, again because all other leather options are terrible. If you want an example, just look at spears , they were originally played with hunter jacket, but cloth robes were buffed and abilities were changed , now spears are only played with cloth in solo and small scale. Sadly even when melee is in cloth it pales in comparison to ranged damage.

      Lets take one handed crossbow for example. This weapon can out dps and out tank a melee dpser , using cleric robe. You point, you click you do absurd damage. Instant damage , no stacks required. While melee weapons , most at least requires stacks to function. As a result they are not played in ZVZ as much as ranged weapons are. You will have the occasional Gala player, but he is literally just a clap bot, often being purged and suiciding into demon armor. And even then you are wearing cloth(cleric robe).This is why I always recommend new players to play ranged dps, its easier , hits harder and you barely need that many swaps . Just look at perma frost and what it can do, not a single melee weapon compares.

      Now im not saying , that you cant make melee weapons work, if that was true , then swords wouldn't be as dominant in 5v5 presence. But this is only because all of the other options are trash in those settings. As a result most melee , in large and small scale fights exist only to compliment ranged dps, as soft dps / meat shield, most likely using stalker hood for execute potential.The problem becomes why bother putting in that much effort to learn melee, when u can just roll your face on your keyboard and played Ranged dps ie . one handed cross/ perma/ fire/ curse.Its just to ez in comparison.

      The problem is also Damage out scales resistances in this game. This is why leather apart from its one artifact, is not used in group fights, you either go with the highest possible resistances (plate) or damage(cloth).Then you have some of the best defensives in the game on cloth, that also give you an element of offense.

      So to sum it up just play ranged, and if u want to play melee , then be prepared to play from behind, and also be prepared to constantly swap gear, the only viable builds for melee is what's meta in any given situation, if you don't play what's meta you will lose to ranged, who don't have to worry about needing spec/ mastery in many different gear pieces. As ranged you can get by with just leveling cloth line and be just fine .As melee you pretty much need everything unlocked just to function.

      Oh and ignore forum trolls, they don't know anything about game design, and any issue that is pointed out they will shill for SBI.
    • Fusionbomb wrote:

      galas are arguably one of the best and most efficient weps in a zvz

      but please, enlighten us all to what else you've learned during your 1.4m killfame

      albiononline2d.com/en/scoreboa…rs/s9_YD6OMRValXA1MHMq8RA
      I don't PVP in this game, I do almost exlcusively arenas. Are you going to try to tell me that PVP fame is an indication of anything in this game? The second you bring up somebody's PVP fame as an argument you lost, because you're not addressing anything and are instead attacking the individual. PVP in albion is a joke because you get jumped by multiple people wearing Spectre Hood/Cultist Robe/Scholar Sandals wielding Light Crossbows or Bows and they free farm people all day for loot because they deal the most damage possible in the game and have two full HP/SP heals with physical invulenerability (hey that counters all the melee!) in their pocket.

      Ranged is absolutely broken because the concept of a, "glass cannon" doesn't exist in Albion thanks to armor being tied to abilities and for some reason the armor that gives you the highest attack power in the game also have the strongest defensive abilities in the game. There is no reason to specifically look for melee DPS and instead you throw all melee into a lackluster category that does this one cool thing to support your Ranged attackers and make them more effective or simply finish off opponents after your Light Crossbow has slammed his fatroll on the keyboard and nuked somebody for 1900 damage in 4 seconds. Just because, "well one time this guy used a sword and killed another dude that makes it balanced" doesn't mean the line is fine. You have Melee having to use the same armor as Ranged because Leather/Plate abilities suck and the defensive increases are not comparable to the damage increases, and the problem is Ranged is going to do it better every single time while the only purpose melee has is some cool skill that might help as opposed to being a mandatory. You don't lose because you didn't have Melee, but you do lose because you didn't have Ranged. That's the issue.

      See, maybe if you were smart you'd realize that there's a bunch of ranged abilities in the game that one-thousand percent negate Melee damage? Completely? ZERO damage? So you attempt to get close to a fire mage and BOOM there's a fear wall that you can't cross and have to go around, slowly, meanwhile they're standing in place DOTting you for hundreds of points of damage and you're dead. So you have to build this mish-mash armor setup to try to counter everything and you end up spread out so thin the margin of error for victory is abysmal.

      SirusX715 wrote:

      You're mixing weapon and armor arguments. Melee is fine and has many top tier builds. For group ganking, bloodletters and claws are top tier. For solo ganking, double bladed and pike are top tier. For zvz, galatines and grovekeeper are top tier. For 5v5, there is a long list of great melee options.
      Man I'm tired of you people. Claws do literally nothing but hold somebody in place for a moment every 30 seconds and that entire skill is rendered useless by any form of CC. The damage isn't even good on that E, all it's used for is the root and shield removal in ganking, and then.. what? What are daggers doing for that MASSIVE DAMAGE after the fact? Nothing. Daggers have the 2 weakest Q spells in the game that don't even syngergize with anything else your doing and then your W is probably Dash because you're melee and you have to get close to even deal your damage SO THE SECOND YOU GET CLOSE TO DEAL DAMAGE YOU HAVE NO DAMAGE TO DEAL. Bloodletters are the same thing, except for replace a root with an execute that only works if they're below a certain HP threshold and you can also use it as a dash for escaping. You're not winning fights with these weapons, you're finishing them; there's no reason to use them outside of very specific niche instances. Oh man, Double Bladed Staff and Pike are top tier for ganking? Once? Every two minutes? Because of an ability that isn't on the weapon but is actually on a Cape? That anybody can use? And those weapons are only, "top tier" because they can CC you reliably inside that ability? Only every 2 minutes? So amazing! Then you list Galatines for the suicide bomb which isn't even unique to the weapon and is again only effective in a very small niche (you would take infinite Bows/Fire/Frost/Curse because they're always good but you would never take more than a couple of Galatines in a zerg because they're too easily countered and thus lose the one thing they do well) and then... a melee weapon used specifically for CC and not actually winning fights unless you pair it with the same cape I mentioned earlier.

      So what about the few dozen other melee weapons in the game? Same problem. 3 Light crossbows? Amazing. 3 Axes? Completely worthless, you will lose every engagement. That's the problem, and then you get into 1v1 territory and wow, there's multiple armor abiltiies in the game that completely shut down melee! There is a robe in the game with 50% damage bonus (58% passive) that for seven seconds knocks back anyone near you 12 meters (basically half the screen) and has a 30 second Cooldown meaning it's up constantly. Yeah, i'm sure melee is in a great place when that's a thing. There's also, you know, Fiend Robe, Cleric Robe for the invulnerability, Cultist Robe for the invulnerability to Melee AND the full HP/SP heal, Mage Robe that invalidates most weapons in the game because melee has to stack buffs and gives you better than plate armor defenses, any Cloth Cowl has access in the game that instantly knocks you back interrupting all abilities (rendering weapons like Dagger Pair or Dual Swords completely useless), Cleric Cowl for the unpurgable Ice Block you can use while CC'd and let's you get your cooldowns back safely, Cleric Cowl that gives you more defense than Plate for 8 seconds and gives you mana back every single time you're attacked; the list goes on. Where's all the anti-ranged abilities? Oh, right, they don't exist. Because Cloth is so powerful, it's a requirement to use even on Melee fights, but then you're STILL DEALING LESS DAMAGE THAN RANGED AND YOU ARE REQUIRED TO GET CLOSE ENOUGH TO DO SAID DAMAGE, which completely destroys any semblance of balance the game had.

      Just comparing basic weapons, Dagger Pair E requires 3 Stacks of it's Q which takes a minimum of 6 seconds to deal 1180 damage (only 75% of it instantly) with a .4 second cast time. Crossbow E deals 928 damage up front with a 2.5 second cast time that's mitigated completely by Capes or Scholar Robe that you'd never use on the Dagger Pair, plus it's range is so absurd at 16m compared to the point-blank melee range of Slit throat. Both have the same cooldown. Dagger Q does 167 damage every 2 seconds, Crossbow Q does 584 damage over 2 seconds with a 13m range, and it has a W ability to burst you down even harder at range (or simply knock you back again and make all of it's skills hit 50% faster). Dagger Passives? Absolutely worthless, the best one is the 15% heal off your normal auto attacks which is like 11 life per hit. Oh boy, a weak bleed that you can't even land the 4 hits on somebody to do because you're melee and they're constantly moving? Attack speed bonus that is literally useless for the same reason? Crossbow passives are insane. "Every three normal attacks knocks your opponents away and interrupt their spell casting"? "Every four activated spells, your Q-slot spell cooldown is instantly reset"? Crossbow is one of the best solo ganking weapons in the game btw, Light Crossbow is one of the best weapons in the game period, Heavy Crossbow is excellent for small scale group fights because it hits everybody at such a long range and interrupts, Weepings Repeater is basically a ranged Galatine Pair with a short CD that's harder to counter (less damage but doesn't matter because you'll actually survive as a Weeping Repeater and it's way cheaper), and Bolt Casters can basically kill somebody in one E: again all of these at range. Want to try to bring up how Black Hands have a purge therefore they're totally useful? Have you ever actually used Black Hands before? Do you have any idea how absolutely infuriating it is to try to move closer to a target to land a melee skill with a long wind up that's canceled by you accidentally moving and has a 20 second cooldown? Good luck, also it's countered by Ice Block. And this is just Crossbows, not even touching Bows/Fire/Frost/Curse with how absolutely insane they are compared to any possible Melee option; all of which have items in top tier for every form of combat in the game and are vastly easier to play.

      The game is a fucking mess right now. There are very few reasons to use melee in any scenerio except for specific niches you might be useful (Possible CC, Possible heal reduction, Maybe AOE Resistance Shredding) but aren't a requirement, meanwhile Ranged is an absolute requirement to succeed in this game as you will lose fights melee only in any structured combat.
    • Acoustic wrote:

      I don't PVP in this game, I do almost exlcusively arenas.
      And that's why your're entitled to tell us that melee is shit in this game? If people bring the pvp fame to the table is because it's a good indicator of the guy's implication in the pvp and game knowledge overall.

      Hilarious tho that melee allows you to take 1vs n+1 fights way more easier than any ranged dps. You have quite the proof on yt with the omnipresence of melee videos for gvg's, openworld content, zvz, yati yata...

      I would be glad to see bows (exept warbow) doing that well in the openworld pvp.

      Melee is not useless, and far from being the case from quite some time.
    • Acoustic wrote:

      I do almost exlcusively arenas
      I don't see how you don't like melee if you almost exclusively do arenas. I usually groan when I get in there and find out the team is all ranged. I've won with ranged teams but mostly by driving people off of the capture points and consistently capping them. With strong melee it's more about getting kills.

      Daggers are good but require synergy. You should not be using dash on the W key IMO. You should be working with a buddy that can snare or stun. Swords are good if backed up by good range (or daggers). Stick to the target and hamstring them whenever possible to give ranged more chance to work. Use something like the claymore E ability to finish them or to get back on them after they try to pop out of melee. I've seen good hammer users too and it's a similar story to swords: it's not so much that they kill people, it's that they set people up to be killed.

      This game (and MMORPGs in general and arenas in particular) is all about weapon synergy. Yes, swords and daggers and hammers and etc tend to suck if you're just playing yolo Rambo out there. You'll charge in, accomplish very little, die and that's it. With any kind of decent group synergy, though, melee becomes the backbone of the group. You set them up, someone else knocks them down and you often can finish it.

      Yes, the enemy can have counters to stuns and snares and so forth but the goal is to overwhelm priority targets and keep them from getting away, for which you need stuns and snares and so forth.

      The only thing I sometimes ponder is that I wish they'd bump up the +CC bonus to plate chest. CC in this game is super short, especially factoring in resists, so while plate gives the biggest boost, a boost to a short timer is still a short timer. Still, a plate melee is a PITA because he can weather quite a lot and stick to the target to keep applying the effects of his choosing. Cloth melee will do better DPS but he gets less time on target if he gets attention.

      You don't see a lot of staff gankers because it's just too easy to run away from staff users (except ice but that's another weapon that's great for synergy but not great for solo ganking).

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Slamz ().

    • Owlsane wrote:

      Acoustic wrote:

      I don't PVP in this game, I do almost exlcusively arenas.
      And that's why your're entitled to tell us that melee is shit in this game? If people bring the pvp fame to the table is because it's a good indicator of the guy's implication in the pvp and game knowledge overall.
      Hilarious tho that melee allows you to take 1vs n+1 fights way more easier than any ranged dps. You have quite the proof on yt with the omnipresence of melee videos for gvg's, openworld content, zvz, yati yata...

      I would be glad to see bows (exept warbow) doing that well in the openworld pvp.

      Melee is not useless, and far from being the case from quite some time.
      I can find just as many videos cherry picked about ranged too. The funniest part is that you don't even see what the problem is. There's nothing inherently different that makes Melee better, but I've pointed out multiple times how it's worse with actual stats. Apparently having a bunch of PVP fame you leeched off 4+ other dudes (lol zvz) doesn't give you that, now does it? Are you seriously going to say I have no knowledge of the game after 900 arenas? Wait, don't answer that, we've already pointed out how ignorant you are. PVP Fame means literally nothing.

      What, "allows" you with melee to take multiple people in a fight, "way more easier than any ranged dps"? There's no mechanic in the game for that. Is it the extra 80-100 Hit points you'd get for wielding a melee weapon? Because that's an actual stat and that's a single auto attack worth of difference. If anything, Multiple Ranged attackers would auto-win against Melee because they can be spread apart while dealing maximum damage, and their damage is far higher; so even if one does happen to go down there's no hope that the melee attacker can take down both and that doesn't even account for simply using a Warbow with Ray Of Light and just kiting while dealing hundreds of points of damage and rooting for free. Seriously, have you just never played Melee before or just never played against a semi-competent Ranged user?

      Why not give me an actual stat or mechanic reason? Because it doesn't exist, otherwise you would have. Just because you can cherry pick scenerios and videos that, "one time this guy killed me with a broadsword therefore it's OP" doesn't mean it's true, you need reasons to back that up. I gave multiple reasons why Melee damage is redundant and useless except for very specific niche points that has less to do with damage and more about abilities that while nice to have aren't required and why Ranged is an absolute requirement to succeed in any from of content in this game, but you chose to ignore that. You have no argument at this point. Use your brain, think really clearly why you'd take a Melee weapon over a Ranged when Ranged does more damage, faster, more reliably, and most importantly: at range?

      Slamz wrote:


      Acoustic wrote:

      I do almost exlcusively arenas
      I don't see how you don't like melee if you almost exclusively do arenas. I usually groan when I get in there and find out the team is all ranged. I've won with ranged teams but mostly by driving people off of the capture points and consistently capping them. With strong melee it's more about getting kills.
      Daggers are good but require synergy. You should not be using dash on the W key IMO. You should be working with a buddy that can snare or stun. Swords are good if backed up by good range (or daggers). Stick to the target and hamstring them whenever possible to give ranged more chance to work. Use the E ability to finish them or to get back on them after they try to pop out of melee. I've seen good hammer users too and it's a similar story to swords: it's not so much that they kill people, it's that they set people up to be killed.

      This game (and MMORPGs in general and arenas in particular) is all about weapon synergy. Yes, swords and daggers and hammers and etc tend to suck if you're just playing yolo Rambo out there. You'll charge in, accomplish very little, die and that's it. With any kind of decent group synergy, though, melee becomes the backbone of the group. You set them up, someone else knocks them down and you often can finish it.

      Yes, the enemy can have counters to stuns and snares and so forth but the goal is to overwhelm priority targets and keep them from getting away, for which you need stuns and snares and so forth.

      The only thing I sometimes ponder is that I wish they'd bump up the +CC bonus to plate chest. CC in this game is super short, especially factoring in resists, so while plate gives the biggest boost, a boost to a short timer is still a short timer. Still, a plate melee is a PITA because he can weather quite a lot and stick to the target to keep applying the effects of his choosing. Cloth melee will do better DPS but he gets less time on target if he gets attention.

      You don't see a lot of staff gankers because it's just too easy to run away from staff users (except ice but that's another weapon that's great for synergy but not great for solo ganking).
      Literally any weapon in the game would be effective with a snare or stun, that's like saying 1H Dagger is good because somebody can stun them when Bow exists and does far more damage quicker from a distance (1H Dagger being one of if not the worst weapons in the game). You do realize that the, "from distance" thing means, "you're constantly attacking and dealing damage because you don't have to worry about being right next to the enemy to actually hit them" right? There's nothing the dagger does better than a Crossbow, I explained that in the post you're quoting. Here, I'll underline it for you again: there is nothing the dagger does better than a crossbow. There's no ability the Dagger has that makes a difference in a fight, it's abilities are completely avoidable, and it's damage isn't better for being a Melee weapon. Look at the stats of the two weapon trees and try again. There's no special armor access that Daggers have over Crossbows, there is absolutely no mechanic in the game that makes Daggers worth using over crossbows. That's a fact. There's two usable niche builds for Daggers in the game, one which is perma invis and one that you use for escaping ganks; the rest of the tree is completely worthless for a variety of reasons. Again, there is nothing the dagger does better than a crossbow. You're better off using a crossbow in every single possible situation, it does more damage more consistently and it's ranged.

      Yes, CC is good, that's all Melee can do (and even then, very few of them). So you typically will have a Tank. I'm not talking about Tanks. I'm talking about Melee DPS. There's no reason for it, and the vast majority of Melee weapons in the game are centered around this idea and are completely worthless because of it. There is no reason to ever take a Melee weapon for damage unless it involves CC and a Demon Cape.


      FriendlyFire wrote:

      Definition of clueless newb. As people have mentioned, melee weapons are or have been meta for every type of content. Ganking, 5v5s, ZvZ, etc.

      Here's a guy who does almost nothing but run around solo with melee, watch him kill ranged people and larger groups as just one example.: youtube.com/watch?v=owZmYRyQ_qk
      And here's where I'd cherrypick a video of a ranged guy killing larger groups if I didn't realize that's not an argument nor does it prove anything. Why not actually form an argument? Can you give a single example using game mechanics and stats as to how Melee is better? Because it's not. We both know this. Besides some very limited applications for CC or bleed effects that ranged can't do (which is there purely to support ranged attackers), Ranged is better in every single category. Ranged deals more damage, faster, far safer, before Melee, and because of this can reliably use the best armor in the game (cloth) with little repercussions. You've never even thought about that, have you? Next you'll tell me that Stalker and Hunter jackets are actually super meta and useful and you'd take them every time over Mage or Cleric robe because that 6 damage less you take per auto attack is definitely worth the 35% less damage you do to the enemy and that clearly scales well. You lose group fights in this game for not having Ranged, while you lose group fights in this game for having melee. See the problem yet?
    • Acoustic wrote:

      And here's where I'd cherrypick a video of a ranged guy killing larger groups if I didn't realize that's not an argument nor does it prove anything
      I'm sure you can, but it does prove something. They are balanced. There are plenty of people doing well with both. Honestly, outside of ZvZ, you see more melee DPS than ranged. It's arguably better.

      But let me break down the core argument here.

      Acoustic wrote:

      Can you give a single example using game mechanics and stats as to how Melee is better? Because it's not. We both know this. Besides some very limited applications for CC or bleed effects that ranged can't do (which is there purely to support ranged attackers), Ranged is better in every single category. Ranged deals more damage, faster, far safer, before Melee, and because of this can reliably use the best armor in the game (cloth) with little repercussions.
      What range is doing more damage exactly? You're entire premise is wrong from the get go. When it comes to auto attacks, all ranged attacks are notably weaker. But auto attacks aren't that important, so what if we go to basic Qs.

      Fire/Frost have to channel to cast every Q. Crossbow either has to channel, or skillshot it. Cursed range isn't that great, and DPS is CERTAINLY not better than melee, and is one of the easiest to counter (guardian helms are all over). The last one, Bow, simply doesn't have any Q that does significant damage. So auto's are worse, and the only way to get more Q damage than melee builds is to stand still casting with fire/frost. Which brings up many issues (can't move to adjust or dodge, can easily be interrupted, etc).

      Why don't we look at the claws E. It's an instant cast, CC ignoring root that does more damage than the crossbow snipe that you brought up. A snipe which is easily and often countered. In general, swords/spears/daggers all have E's that do high damage comparable to the various range Es.

      And I really don't get why you keep bringing up armor. You know ranged people can you leather, right? The standard warbow build is with an assassin chest. Likewise melee use mage/cleric robes all the time. You're also vastly downplaying the defensive advantage leather gives you compared to cloth.

      So we've established that melee weapons do as much or more damage and can also use cloth, but there is one last important component. Melee weapons have mobility, which is arguably more important than range. Every melee branch has mobility. Most ranged weapons have NO mobility, with only Bow/Frost having some limited amount on their W. Range is far less impactful when someone can just close the gap immediately. The person with more mobility also gets to control the fight and chose when to engage/disengage.

      So again, damage between melee/range is comparable, and both can use any armor. Melee get mobility, health, and resilience penetration. Range get, well, range. It's not a bad trade off, which is why melee weapons are so common everywhere.
    • ok! Hold your horses everyone!
      First of all so far this post has been pretty constructive, I don't see much flaming, so @Evas_Flarelight if you could please move this out of Rants to Feedback&Suggestion? (only as long as people can stay constructive, which surprisingly so far they have done a good job, and I've never in 3 years asked for a post to be moved out of Rants)

      Second of all, OP has some (keyword = some) good points. I don't agree with everything (and Im a melee and leather main), but I will address this in a bit.
      Third of all @moking actually made a constructive post to which I also agree with some points, and thats a first as well! (being honest - Im pleasantly surprised, not trolling here)

      Fusionbomb wrote:

      but please, enlighten us all to what else you've learned during your 1.4m killfame

      albiononline2d.com/en/scoreboa…rs/s9_YD6OMRValXA1MHMq8RA
      Thanks for bringing this up too, this is important to know - but because OP was actually respectful and asked great questions (and presented good points) - I think we have a great learning/teaching opportunity here. Unlike the 99% of trolls to whom I usually tell to "STFU and git gud". So lets not lose this opportunity.

      Acoustic wrote:

      Can you give a single example using game mechanics and stats as to how Melee is better? Because it's not. We both know this. Besides some very limited applications for CC or bleed effects that ranged can't do (which is there purely to support ranged attackers), Ranged is better in every single category. Ranged deals more damage, faster, far safer, before Melee, and because of this can reliably use the best armor in the game (cloth) with little repercussions.
      Some good points about ranged dealing more dmg (because start at range), faster, safer, etc... ranged doesn't "alaways" deal more DMG... but for the most part they do. An "average" ranged character that is built for regular PVE or PVP will outDPS any melee built for fame farm or regular PVP. The only - and I repeat - the only time a melee might have equal or slightly higher DPS then the average ranged character - is if that melee is built for 1 shot-combo. And in 99% of the situations - as already pointed out, its the Demon cape that does the damage for the melee, not the actual melee weapon (rare exception is 1shot Dual Daggers, but even those benefit from Demon Cape better then any other cape "just in case"). Nothing wrong with that - Demon cape is equally accessible to everyone - but I just wanted to point that out before any further discussion can take place.

      Ok - with that out of the way, let me address the actual OP and his points:

      1) First of all - as some people pointed out, looking at just armors is not a good way in a "class-less MMO". Looking at combinations of Armors + Weapons is better, but still not good enough. You have to look at all builds in general, so armor + weapon + all other gear slots (shoes, helmets and even capes included, even food and potions) - as that is what makes the total difference. This is also what separates skilled players (those who understand the meta and even play above the meta) vs those who are still "newbies" - who are still learning. (no offense to anyone, just articulating and acknowledging different level of players and skill)

      2) Regarding weapons - swords (and lately actually spears, to my surprise) have really good solo/small scale viability. But I still feel that some weapons lack what I will call here "damage delivery methods". Yes - you read that right. The damage is there - but delivering and sticking on target in melee range can be a problem. Especially if you get purged! Purge - as was pointed out, does not just clear the stacks from the melee, but also their speed boosts, and therefore absolutely clears their ability to "deliver the damage".
      Therefore - I don't think its the armor bonuses (like cloth +58% dmg buff vs leather 30% or plate 0%) are to blame. In fact - armor passive bonuses have nothing to do with damage delivery. Unless we are looking at reflect abilities (but more on that later). Axes for example have good damage - but very poor "damage delivery" methods, and you are basically forced to run Adrenaline Rush (my favorite ability, but I feel it needs a further Utility buff, like CC immunity or something) to be viable. Otherwise any ranged character will basically delete you and take very little DMG while doing that.
      This is partially why - both swords and spears are actually in the top for solo PVP - because its much easier for them to "close the gap" on any class and chase. They both have speed increase or slows as a passive ability. Swords have 33% speed boost from stacks - and spear gets a built in slow on the melee Q.

      3) Third issue - is in how "catch" vs "flee" (push back included here too) abilities are balanced (this is tied to point #2 above):
      I think there is a huge bias in the "flee abilities" (defensives) that heavily favor ranged meta, vs melee meta. TLDR - a "boop" spell like Force Field on cloth helmet is a much better ability, with much better results - then leather helmet's "Howl" ability. That 33% slow on Howl gets reduced to nothing (and duration is crap) by target's CC resistances. And they've recently buffed CC resist on cloth too, without compensating other abilities.

      4) This brings us to my final point - (where I also agree with @moking that "range is easier to play") - in that for a new player or for anyone starting out, learning the game as a ranged character is much easier (that keyboard faceroll, lel) - BUT, and this comes with a big BUT!
      But learning how to play a good melee (well from the 2 types that I listed - either Sword or Spear being the easiest for solo/small scale) is more rewarding once you learn it. Much steeper (and harder) learning curve - but more rewarding in the end. Swords get uniterruptable abilities on the E (Carving E cannot be interrupted, neither can Clarent E, not sure if Galatine E is interruptable?), while Axes (except infernal) get interrupted by everything that sneezes. Especially Bear Paws - contrary to its "percieved" purpose of larger scale fights, are useless in ZvZ as the E has a long wind up + slow jump/travel speed and most of the time flat out gets interrupted, if it lands right and does not bug out.

      Well thats about it from my side folks.
      TLDR: Melle DMG is fine - but "damage delivery" can be shitty (unless sword or spear). Catch and gap closer abilities need to be buffed (or get additional Utility) Reflect abilities probably need another look - (Infernal shield should get buffed back up to like 60-75%) and Hunter Hood needs to be un-nerfed back to 5 sec duration at least (now that we made 1h Curse E unreflectable and same for 1h Xbow E - there are barely any abilities left in the game that can be reflected in a small scale fight).

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Captainrussia ().

    • Captainrussia wrote:

      1) First of all - as some people pointed out, looking at just armors is not a good way in a "class-less MMO". Looking at combinations of Armors + Weapons is better, but still not good enough...
      The problem (you mentioned that you use leather) is that most leather is absolute garbage for just about any character build in the game. Cloth not only gives you massive damage boosts that are absurd, but they also have bar-none the best abilities in the game for both melee and ranged damage. There's no benefit to chosing most of the leather armors in the game, as the minor defense boost does not cover the damage lost. Looking at the hard numbers, it's something like 7-8% defense per category and then a 1.5% defense vs players at the cost of anywhere from 25-40% damage done.

      Then we talk about how classic MMOs will generally give something like Archers massive damage because they're class cannons, or some form of unique utlity like ranged debuffs or CC, that isn't accessible to other classes and so forth. This is basically non-existent in Albion, giving each player the ability to do basically anything and cover any situation with their armor abilities. What this winds up doing is that many weapons are outright stronger than others except for very specific setups or circumstances, but the consistency is the king here. Consistently, most ranged options (Bows/Crossbows/Curse/Frost/Fire) are more powerful and useful in all situations. Groups are basically required to have them and any weakness they have is negated by armor. When you give a Bow a bunch of glass damage abilities and then also give them full heals, invulnerabilities, purges, most of which with secondary effects like armor or damage bonuses you start to delude the actual thinking that goes into combat. Why do so many absolutely strong abilities in this game have secondary effects added on top of them? Does Mage Robe need to give you Plate Armor as well? Does Cleric Robe need to give you a damage bonus? Does Cultist Robe need to heal both HP and SP AND make you invulnerable to physical attacks? These are things that make Cloth items so ridiculously strong compared to most other item slots. Things like Stalker Jacket are a joke in comparison.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      2) Regarding weapons - swords (and lately actually spears, to my surprise) have really good solo/small scale viability. But I still feel that some weapons lack what I will call here "damage delivery methods"...
      Both Swords and Spears clutch to Cloth to do anything in Solo PVP. If you take the Mage/Cleric/Cultist robe off either of them, they're completely useless because they can't do the damage within the windows they can attack. If you don't play perfectly with a Sword/Spear in Solo PVP, you lose; this happens often. They're too easy to completely shut down. Ranged like Bow, Warbow, Crossbow or Light Crossbow are far more consistent in this regard, and all four of those are top tier weapons as well. This is absolutely compounded by the fact that so many weapons that are ranged that already deal insane amounts of damage also have multiple abilities that completely negates melee, and there are multiple armors in the game that also assist in this. You cannot seriously tell me that Avalonian Robe's 7 Second Anti-melee shield with a 30 second Cooldown isn't completely overwhelming to virtually every melee weapon in the game. You mentioned that their damage delivery is the problem, and this is where the entire thread comes to a head: Cloth gives you high damage bonuses that negate the defense benefits of other armors you would use as a Melee, which empowers Ranged attackers for the higher and more consistent damage that also provides you superior positioning, which then gives them multiple forms to completely negate the abilities of Melee attackers, snowballing them even further into the damned-near oppressive category.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      3) Third issue - is in how "catch" vs "flee" (push back included here too) abilities are balanced (this is tied to point #2 above):
      I think there is a huge bias in the "flee abilities" (defensives) that heavily favor ranged meta, vs melee meta. TLDR - a "boop" spell like Force Field on cloth helmet is a much better ability, with much better results - then leather helmet's "Howl" ability. That 33% slow on Howl gets reduced to nothing (and duration is crap) by target's CC resistances. And they've recently buffed CC resist on cloth too, without compensating other abilities.
      Force Field also completely negates many weapons in the game. Dual Swords and Dagger Pair, the two I'm familiar with myself, are both hard-countered by this ability... and Ice Block. Seriously, Ice Block is completely broken; you can't even rely on CC to try to land Slit Throat because Ice Block can be used while stunned which basically means I auto-lose as a Dagger Pair if the opponent has Ice Block on. Or Force Field. Or Levitate. Or Fiend Robe. The list goes on and on. Even if I could pull ranged attackers to me, it wouldn't make a difference unless I could somehow negate their abilities specifically; otherwise there's nothing stopping a Ranged attacker from putting on the same armor and benefiting the exact same way. Anything that prevents a ranged attacker from attacking prevents a Melee attacker from doing the same thing, and yet throw up the wide list of knock backs/walls/slows/etc that also completely prevent Melee from attacking and the problem becomes even more apparent. I'm not even talking about things like Curse/Fire that just put down AOEs that deal hundreds of damage per second that out damages anything that isn't Bow and then also go invulnerable in a multitude of ways that will also completely stop Melee from doing anything.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      4) This brings us to my final point - (where I also agree with @moking that "range is easier to play") - in that for a new player or for anyone starting out, learning the game as a ranged character is much easier (that keyboard faceroll, lel) - BUT...
      I don't see exactly where Melee is more rewarding. Winning, reliably, is far more rewarding. Melee is too easy to shut down compared to Ranged, therefore it's absolutely infuriating to play Melee in many situations. The, "rewarding" aspect comes from how hard it is to get that win, where somebody with a bow literally stands there auto attacking you and you had to perfectly time multiple abilities to even remotely stand a chance and came out on top just barely. Anything that shuts down Melee also shuts down Ranged, but there's a huge list of stuff that only shuts down Melee that hardly affects ranged. This is the problem. Carving Sword E barely does any damage and is used almost exclusively for the armor shredding which does nothing if you have no stacks, Clarent E is basically a joke (There is no reason to use this over any other AOE in the game, it adds absolutely nothing and does absolutely nothing that many weapons can't do far better and it's one of the weakest weapons in the game), and no Galatine E isn't interruptable but it's a weapon with a 30 Second CD on it's three stack ability that can be messed up a variety of ways with a 1.1 second delay that's plenty of time to blink/run away and relies entirely on either complete surprise (like the chaos of a ZvZ where you can't even see the person come in) or an excellent moment where the enemy is not only rooted/stunned but also close together and also you have all 3 stacks and also the cooldown isn't up etc. etc.; this makes it basically unusable for anything non-zvz. I'm unsure if Bear Bows can be interrupted by knockback, I've never used them; but they require no stacks and deal an insane amount of damage so they're in a way better position than something like Dual Swords.

      Evas_Flarelight wrote:

      @Captainrussia The OP posted the thread here in the Rants section, it wasn't moved by any moderator.

      If @Acoustic would like to move it to Feedback and Suggestions instead, then please let us know.

      I also agree that there's merit to this discussion.
      Correct, I posted it in rants. I'm frustrated. This isn't the environment for Feedback and Suggestions because the original post would just turn people off and to be honest I expected, "Acoustic you're an idiot, simply do this and this and now you can deal with all those Ranged attackers and dump on them with your Daggers/Swords" but that hasn't happened yet. I want to be educated. I want to log in, change a few things, and get back into the game in a far better mood. That isn't happening. Every night since this thread has gone up things just get worse and worse as I see no solutions to the problems I keep having.