There's virtually no point to melee in this game.

    • Acoustic wrote:

      Melee, on the other hand, is shut down by simply kiting them until your CDs are up and using that to turn the fight, something you cannot do as a Melee against a Ranged attacker.

      Don't melee weapons have more mobility in general than ranged?

      Acoustic wrote:

      So a crossbow puts on a robe and oneshots a sword wearing a robe before the sword even gets close enough to attack

      That crossbow has to stand still for a while to shoot its E, and you've got plenty of time to hit a defensive ability/potion and close the distance.

      Overall, in your post it sounds like you're assuming equal starting position and numbers, which sounds like 5v5s. Aren't melee weapons useful in 5v5s?
    • Acoustic wrote:

      So a crossbow puts on a robe and oneshots a sword wearing a robe before the sword even gets close enough to attack. The sword puts on Leather to try to get a mix of defense and attack, gets taken down to 90% of their health instead of instadead, and then hits like a wet noodle with no ability that is a threat to the oppoonent. They then try plate, they get taken down to 75% of their health, and the crossbow stands there laughing as they kill them as soon as their 10 second cooldowns are back up because the sword no longer is a threat. That's the problem. Oh, the Robe user is suddenly getting hit? Let's knock them back, fully heal while making their attacks ineffective, go invincible and get an even greater damage boost, purge everything they possibly buff themselves with while also suddenly changing to plate-armor levels of defense... seriously, do you not see the problem here? You can't deal damage as a Melee, because the second you throw on a robe and go against a ranged using a robe they are going to absolutely destroy you because you're dealing zero damage, they're dealing high damage because they're ranged plus the robe buffed that another 50+%, and their defense does not matter because, again: they are ranged. You also can't run from them for the same reason, and you have to blow skills that deal no damage to get a chance to deal damage and it's not like a Broadsword does triple the damage a Crossbow does to make up for it.
      Ok so lets not cherry pick, you picked crossbow vs sword

      What type of crossbow are we talking about here?

      Siege bow? dodge it and lol as you destroy user
      weeping? equally useless just go around it and destroy user
      snipe crossbow? parry the snipe and lol as they snipe themselves and you destroy user
      boltcaster? most easily countered crossbow of all, any kind of stun,silence,knockback,fear will do take your pick from your armor abilities (you said broadsword? E completely counters this)
      light crossbow? parry the sunder shot, bomb does very little, or if your really good at timing, parry the bomb. or you could just pop guardian helmet and cleanse the bomb right off as you destroy the user.


      Acoustic wrote:

      No I'm arguing there should be something in-between and there isn't because Leather isn't viable for most of the content in the game
      This is just a load of rubbish.

      Hellion is probably one of the best melee armors in the game.
      Stalker? really good aoe dps especially excels at melee pve.
      Assasin? really good damage bonus for leather, has ambush which is really OP if used correctly, great applications for ganking and OW content, can completely counter any channeled ability like claws, boltcaster, fire artillery, hellion shoes, and much more.
      hunter? more specialised, but great for auto attack based builds, bow in particular is very strong with this jacket.
      merc? totally broken in the hands of anyone using a dot based weapon, curse, axe etc can heal from 1hp to full in no time, also very strong with channeled abilities, claws, boltcaster etc
      specter? can be devastating in the correct hands and group, tank throws a camlann and some hard CC and specter jacket goes in, GG boys you just got rekt.

      Every armor has a role!!

      Plate armor certainly should not have damage bonuses, it has HUGE CC duration bonuses along with good armor values and resistance, its not for DPS, otherwise we would all just wear plate armor and do sick damage and the game would be broken.

      I am going to say this again, you need to try things with high specs and a good awareness of counters. melee is very strong and is in a very good place right now. and all armors have a specific role and a counter, that's how the whole game is set up.

      I am speaking from the position of somebody that has 400/400 in all armors, and have 400 specs in both melee and ranged dps, and I can 100% tell you unless im planning on dealing instant damage dropping an E and then running backwards I never go for ranged dps, always melee.

      You also need to factor in that melee causes huge panic in 70% of groups, I cannot count the amount of groups I dive on, fight in the open world etc that as soon as I go deep the range dps clothies just turn and start to back pedal instantly, this means they are they unable to deal any damage as they are moving and cannot cast and we just run them down like dogs, and that's one of the main reasons I find melee much more satisfying than cloth/range dps.
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      1) Scholar gives an insane DMG boost to set-ups that are built around slow but high DMG castable attacks. (think Frost with Ice Shard or any Holy with Smite)
      Does Scholar ever boost big AoE damage from Es? (If you could activate your Cleric Robe bonus at will without needing to be damaged, that would be the on-demand damage boost I was referring to.)

      Captainrussia wrote:

      I will argue that Plate should be able to clear with the same speed as cloth/leather - because DMG mitigation should make up for the time spend hitting things with no DMG bonus. Cloth and leather should have downtime due to taking more damage (much more on cloth - which currently is not happening).

      The best defense is a good offense: by killing enemies faster, you're taking less damage. How could plate clear like cloth without being unbalanced?

      While individual armors may need a boost, the design of cloth for DPS, plate for tanks, and leather for specialist builds makes sense to me. (And I consider the question of melee versus ranged DPS to be separate.)
    • So if melee's suck, and leather sucks.

      explain to me this.. I made this one specially for you. were 5v7 we have 1 healer and 4 melee's 3/4 of those melee's are wearing leather armor.



      Notice the panic? ranged cloth dps just don't know what to do, were all up in them and they have no answer.
    • Roccandil wrote:

      The best defense is a good offense: by killing enemies faster, you're taking less damage. How could plate clear like cloth without being unbalanced?

      While individual armors may need a boost, the design of cloth for DPS, plate for tanks, and leather for specialist builds makes sense to me. (And I consider the question of melee versus ranged DPS to be separate.)
      You then should be taking (much) more damage on cloth to warrant longer downtime (to recover) equal to clearing speed on leather or plate. Running t7 SRDG with Hellion Jacket - I was struggling (as a 350/400 on all abilities cloth or leather) and had to pop my Hellion (making me very susceptible to 1vX ganks) quite often. Switched to cloth today - and I was able to clear t7s much faster - and without having to blow a single R (chest skill, regardless of what that skill was). Never going back to leather again.

      TLDR - we should really all be just running cloth, there is very little point to run leather in PVE (Merc has been nerfed, Hellion can be easily purged and even if I get dove by 3 shitters I still die), and then there is plate for CC/tank classes. Also most Youtube videos where a player is able to win 1v2 or 1v3 divers - comes from people using Cloth armor (usually Cultist Robe + Guardian Helmet), @Equart is the only solo PVP'er who can fight 1v3 in leather (Assasin Jacket) and win - but I think is more to the fact that he uses Carving Sword, which is like a hybrid between a 1 shot Bloodletter and Dagger skill with a lot of mobility and a high burst on E.

      Oh - and this is how you run solo RDG with Plate by clearing it at the same speed as leather (3-4 min per floor) - you make your stats on plate same as on leather (+33% DMG and lose a bit of defense):


      Roccandil wrote:

      Does Scholar ever boost big AoE damage from Es?
      Not directly. But if we look at attack speed as a damage boost (faster attk = more DMG per secon) then Scholar cast speed improves DMG as well, in a sense that it makes long casting high dmg abilities (think meteor on Brimstone, or Flame Tornado on Blazing or single target, like snipe shot on Xbow) much more effective (their slow cast speed is one of their "counters" - remove that, and its much harder to counter).
    • Throatcutter wrote:

      So if melee's suck, and leather sucks.

      explain to me this.. I made this one specially for you. were 5v7 we have 1 healer and 4 melee's 3/4 of those melee's are wearing leather armor.

      Notice the panic? ranged cloth dps just don't know what to do, were all up in them and they have no answer.
      We have to be very careful with providing anecdotal evidence (and I don't mean to challenge you, just raising awareness <3 as I wasn't there for the fight you've linked) - but for all I know those "7 that you clapped" were super bad, had no specs and by the looks of it - were wearing t4 armor. While from your group - you got yourself (at 400/400 right?) and I know Olik is pretty much 400/400 in everything he uses. Appears to be a huge difference of IP (spec's) and skill.

      I also saw Avalanche being rolled from Hoarfrost staff - which in current meta is considered to be pretty crap tier (if he had a Permafrost - and actually had any idea on how to use it - the outcome would have been very different).

      Newbie players will often panic in PVP (we all did at some time), so again, I feel like that is very subjective and very anecdotal evidence.

      But then again - there is very few players who have maxed cloth and leather who do solo PVP. So its very difficult to get accurate feedback. I know that most top solo PVP'ers (we're not talking ZvZ here) use cloth (Equart is the only exception really - he uses leather). I've been using leather too, but I can never fight 1v3, barely 1v2 (so Hellion fails at its innate ability), and usually if I outgear or out-spec the opponents.

      Fame farming with cloth is much much easier (from what I have been told and have experienced myself). And as I've already mentioned - for the past 2 years Leather has been getting only nerfs (plz anyone - name a single buff), while Cloth has been getting a myriad of buffs and/or rewords (think Mage Robe).

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Captainrussia ().

    • @Throatcutter cmon man... just cmom.. you would be able to kill them even as 2 man , or as one with AOE one-shot build via keper cape with some weapons. And if you would use demon boots - you would be even able to escape , if something goes wrong. This video shows nothing.

      But overall - Yes, hellion jacket + carving/Any axe weapon is good small scale setup. But such situations are niche. Question is more global , and it is not about unique situations , it is more about the whole leather armor chest line. And sorry for the truth , but in current state of the game - it sucks. Again, i repeat myself - GLOBALY , from spells to stats. I don't even see the sense guys why you are arguing about it. It is a fact.

      Like a fact that we got tones of useless spells on weapons/armors etc. Just deal with it.
    • Equart wrote:

      But overall - Yes, hellion jacket + carving/Any axe weapon is good small scale setup.
      Its "okay" at best.

      I got dove by 3 shitters with 700-900 IP range (who were probably on F2P looking to gank gear for their premium) and with my maxed out AOE setup I could not do shit:

      albiononline2d.com/en/scoreboard/events/66248199

      (they were low at like 2 bars each... but I would have expected to wipe them out with my set up). Leather has been way over nerfed. Not enough DMG to actually do shit and not enough Armor to actually be tanky "in the middle" between cloth and plate. Not to mention that running Guardian helmet (or anything but Cleric Cowl) on axe is impossible due to ridiculous mana usage on abilities.


      Roccandil wrote:

      Captainrussia wrote:

      You then should be taking (much) more damage on cloth to warrant longer downtime (to recover) equal to clearing speed on leather or plate.
      Why? You already take more damage per hit (on top of a smaller HP pool), but since you kill things faster, they don't get to hit you as much.

      Expecting everything to have the same clear speed is unrealistic.
      So you just basically admitted that cloth is better then leather or plate in both PVE and PVP (aside from niche tank/CC roles - where plate is a must). If your target is dead - it does not matter "how squishy you are" - you are no longer taking any damage. Compare that with Cultist Robe + Guardian Helmet combo (which basically gives 0 f*ck about any kind of DMG) and we have the issue that we had 6 month ago with the Cleric robe + Graveguard "1200 HP" heals.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Captainrussia ().

    • So those guys are lower IP for sure, but my example is more pointing out the fact that the large majority of players panic when faced with melee inside them, just as these guys did, running around popping defensives trying only to survive and doing no dps.

      I can agree leather armor is much more specialised than cloth with its current abilities, but that's the game, everything has a role.

      Cloth armor has high damage bonus and strong defensive abilities, although very short. This is offset by the fact you melt at almost any big hit.

      Leather armor has mediocre dmg bonus with better defenses and more specialised abilities,

      Plate armor has low dmg bonus with high defense and great resist and big cc duration bonuses.

      What it is exactly we are looking for here? Leather to have the dps of cloth and the defense of plate?

      Everything has to be balanced out and its not an easy job, but I think the overall balance of the armor is currently very good.

      Weapons on the other hand, is a totally different ballgame, with many useless weapons and abilities that need addressed, in my opinion long before any armor changes should even be considered.
    • Roccandil wrote:

      Captainrussia wrote:

      So you just basically admitted that cloth is better then leather or plate in both PVE and PVP (aside from niche tank/CC roles - where plate is a must). If your target is dead - it does not matter "how squishy you are" - you are no longer taking any damage.
      Cloth is better at doing damage. It's supposed to be. :)
      Both you and I know that this is an unfinished sentence. "Cloth is better at doing damage" - nobody is disputing that. Its also supposed to be worse at mitigating damage. And that is currently not happening.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Captainrussia ().

    • Captainrussia wrote:

      Roccandil wrote:

      Captainrussia wrote:

      So you just basically admitted that cloth is better then leather or plate in both PVE and PVP (aside from niche tank/CC roles - where plate is a must). If your target is dead - it does not matter "how squishy you are" - you are no longer taking any damage.
      Cloth is better at doing damage. It's supposed to be. :)
      Both you and I know that this is an unfinished sentence. "Cloth is better at doing damage" - nobody is disputing that. Its also supposed to be worse at mitigating damage. And that is currently not happening.

      Of course it's worse at mitigating damage: fewer HP, less armor, less resistance.
    • Roccandil wrote:

      Captainrussia wrote:

      Roccandil wrote:

      Captainrussia wrote:

      So you just basically admitted that cloth is better then leather or plate in both PVE and PVP (aside from niche tank/CC roles - where plate is a must). If your target is dead - it does not matter "how squishy you are" - you are no longer taking any damage.
      Cloth is better at doing damage. It's supposed to be. :)
      Both you and I know that this is an unfinished sentence. "Cloth is better at doing damage" - nobody is disputing that. Its also supposed to be worse at mitigating damage. And that is currently not happening.
      Of course it's worse at mitigating damage: fewer HP, less armor, less resistance.
      On paper. Not in reality. And to understand that - you actually have to understand how the game works - all the little nitty-gritty details, like mob placement, mob count, even mob resits, etc...

      I've been running t7 solos in Cloth now - and man, what a breeze! I even ran a 7.1, and while I noticed a slow down in clear speed, I could not even imagine doing the same in a leather set up. (same IP, same weapon)

      What I did notice - is that in leather I used to round up OW mobs (like a pack of wolves, or Rhinos) just for fun, and AOE them down. In cloth - I dropped my HP much faster vs a pack of 6 mobs. So this is leading me to believe that the "breakpoint" between leather vs cloth comes around like 6+ mobs (which is very rare and almost does not happen in solo RDG, Im not counting trash mobs like clusters of bats/rats/books). Most mobs in solo RDG come in packs of 2 or 3. That results in you clearing the mobs so fast - you literally take 0 damage.

      So if you are wearing cloth - you get 100% DMG mitigation (you kill stuff before it barely touches you) and 55% + DMG bonus.

      In leather - just because of lower DMG - you are getting hit much more, and your mitigation is not enough to make up for that. The result = much slower clear speed at higher tiers (and much more susceptible to being at low HP when dove - which is completely contradictory and the opposite effect that we'd expect when faming in cloth gear). In cloth - you are almost always at full HP, in leather - you are almost always low (again, talking about higher tiers here - like t7 and up).

      I can't exactly pin point what exactly is off... maybe the way Reaver scales with cloth/leather (or DMG bonus in general) is broken? I would not be surprised - as I know Reaver is broken with True Damage. You can clear t8 SRDG with t4.1 gear if you use true DMG (a trick - most ppl would probably hate me for openly mentioning), which completely throws off risk-vs-reward.

      @Korn @Retroman - something is indeed off in the Leather vs Cloth balance. At least in PVE - for sure. Still can't 100% comment about PVP, but actually wouldn't be surprised - with all the nerfs in the past 2 years to leather and continuous buffs to Cloth.

      Actually - sheer fact that clearing solo dungeons in cloth while almost always being at 100% HP - while being at lower HP threshold in leather already affects PVP (its an OW sandbox - everything is intertwined). Cloth allows you to start a fight at 100% (and maybe even more CD's up, as I can clear most mobs with just Q's, no need to use E even) vs the same situation in leather - where you would have blown most of your DMG cooldowns to clear the mobs - and you are now at lower HP too.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Captainrussia ().

    • Captainrussia wrote:

      So while I continue to not agreeing with everything that @Acoustic says (he overdramatisizes a bit), but he gets a like - because I agree more with what he is saying (as a percieved "newbie") vs what @Roccandil is saying.
      I'm doing my best here. I'm obviously frustrated and passionate, and it's difficult to keep things concise when that's happening. I appreciate your candor.

      Roccandil wrote:

      Don't melee weapons have more mobility in general than ranged?
      There are multiple abilities in the game that outright counter melee. Anything that would potentially counter range, also counters melee. So you can completely shut down Melee attackers and prevent them from doing damage, but you cannot do the same for ranged. Bows have roots and a passive slow, crossbows have knockback shot and a passive knockback, fire has Flame Wall, Ice has slows and roots, and then there are armor abilities like Avalonian Robe of Purity that is just insanely anti-melee and if Melee was more popular you would see this thing on every single ranged attacker in a PVP solo video ever because it makes you figuratively unkillable.

      Roccandil wrote:

      That crossbow has to stand still for a while to shoot its E... ...
      There are armors that prevent that from being a thing, armors that aren't viable for Melee trying to do similar things. Crossbow outright is better than Dagger Pair, it's really hard to argue against that. Yes, Melee is useful in 5v5s, as a support. A team consisting of multiple Melee DPS, a Tank, and a Healer will lose every single engagement to a team that consists of multiple Ranged DPS, a tank, and a Healer; this is because the Melee doesn't do enough damage and can't mitigate the damage that Ranged deals, and then on top of that they have multiple ways of being completely shut down while Ranged really doesn't. Melee is a thing that's nice to have, but not a requirement. Double Healer can completely negate the reason to use Melee in a 5v5 setup.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      Siege bow? dodge it and lol as you destroy user... ....
      And if I'm not using Parry? You know, that ability that's been nerfed to hell and back since it's inception even though Swords were decreed as worthless before it was added? And If that Light Crossbow has Cultist Robe (it probably does) or Mage Robe (it, again, probably does) or Cleric Robe (Yeah, you guessed it, meta Item I'm guaranteed to fight against) I lost even if I parried it because I won't be able to get off enough damage. Cultist Robe will absorb my E, Cleric Blocks it (and protects against any interrupts and gives them 3 seconds of increased damage while invulnerable which can completely screw me), Mage Robe instantly triggers and wipes my stacks and prevents me from stacking for 8 seconds, and do you honestly think I'm going to kill somebody after I used my Parry to protect/reflect paltry damage and my E was completely negated? My only recourse is spamming Q until cooldowns are back, and that means I have to get close to the opponent, tank all of their guaranteed hits, and hope they don't just kite me which outright prevents me from damaging them. I cannot deal the damage required to kill them, and they can not only land virtually all of their attacks at massive damage bonuses but then escape if things go wrong; something melee can't do without giving them even more damage. You lose. There's absolutely no winning. That's game. That's the problem. I can't even try to mitigate this with Leather/Plate because the defenses don't scale against the damage and the abilities are atrocious.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      Hellion is probably one of the best melee armors in the game
      In group fights, and it's instantly purgable by toggling Mage Robe rendering it completely worthless or toggling invincibility or just kiting it.. In solo fights it does nothing.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      Stalker?... ...
      You have never used it, have you? 400 damage MAYBE at high spec because it's affected by resistances (so even against Cloth users cut it's written damage by over half), requires you to be point-blank with the enemy, takes up your most valuable equipment slot in the entire game, and has every single weakness Hellion does. It's practically worthless, especially with how bad it scales with higher IP. There is no reason to use this even for PvE unless you are specifically leveling Artifact Jackets.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      Assasin?... ...
      One, it's never OP. It's one of the longest cooldown armor abilities in the game, and two: it's countered by... literally walking away. That's it. If you see me disappear because I have Assassin Jacket on, and I'm melee, just walk away; maybe even pop your sprint. I either have to chase you and get none of the benefits of the ability or stand there like a moron trying to stack something I'll never be able to use; either way it's basically pointless on most weapons in the game. Plus, you know, you can't build stacks while using it and most melee weapons require you to build stacks to deal damage and it only works for the first attack coming out of invisibility unlike Hellion Shoes which sticks around for 4 seconds. Honestly, Ranged attackers use it better in every way and they aren't using it because it's not a strong pick. And again, you're instantly trading 20-28% damage for an 8 second invisibility with a long CD and potentially only 40% additional damage (a net gain after stacked perfectly of 12-20% as opposed to just having it constantly if wearing a robe), so it's a really bad item in general that only works on a few weapons... and most of them are going to pick Robes every time.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      hunter?... ....
      Bow is particularly strong with that jacket, but there's an ASPD cap and bows can basically hit it without Hunter. Melee can't do auto attack builds, because if they could 1H Dagger might actually be useful, and if you're using a Bow you're already dealing enough damage as is; consider the fact that by putting Hunter Jacket on you're losing 25-33% damage instantly over Robes and the buff only gives you ASPD and 20% damage. It's not worth using.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      merc? totally broken in the hands of anyone using a dot based weapon, curse, axe etc can heal from 1hp to full in no time, also very strong with channeled abilities, claws, boltcaster etc
      Yes, I explained this is one of the only useful Jackets in the game next to Hellion Hood... that benefits Ranged more than Melee. If you have no recourse to counter it, Claws could totally wipe you if they have Merc Jacket; but not only does Melee have multiple outright counters that prevent you from getting close enough to deal damage the Claw E is interruptable and does nothing but root, meaning any CC will cancel the attack and it has a thirty second cooldown. This is why Claws are a support platform and not a damage platform, and this is a problem almost every Dagger in the game suffers from: your Q does low damage, your W abilities are lackluster and most of the time you're required to use Shadow Edge or Dash for the gap closing/utility, and then your E has no synergy with any of these abilities and if it's countered you did basically nothing. Claws are a bad weapon. Axes can totally use it, as can Fire/Cursed/Bow/Crossbow (Auto fire attacks fast rapidly and will fill that quota quick)... you get the point, it's another item in the game that ranged benefits more from and yet most of the time it's thrown away for Robes because of the increased damage and still effective abilities.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      specter? can be devastating in the correct hands and group, tank throws a camlann and some hard CC and specter jacket goes in, GG boys you just got rekt.
      ...so hit the Camlann twice and it dies because the idiot is wearing leather and can barely be healed while constantly damaging himself with True damage. This isn't even a thing and you know it. Specter Jacket is so situational and even then it's not even worth using plus it's a Relic. The damage doesn't even scale with IP, and it's true damage which is great against tanks but practically worthless against Cloth. It may be one of the worst niche items in the game.

      I get the distinct feeling you're writing this out but you yourself have never tried to use any of these in any PVP. Leather is bad.
    • Honestly I cant comment any more, this guy is the most clueless person ive ever heard. THIS IS THE LAST TIME I WILL WRITE THIS.

      You said on siege bow.

      Acoustic wrote:

      And if I'm not using Parry? You know, that ability that's been nerfed to hell and back since it's inception even though Swords were decreed as worthless before it was added? And If that Light Crossbow has Cultist Robe (it probably does) or Mage Robe (it, again, probably does) or Cleric Robe (Yeah, you guessed it, meta Item I'm guaranteed to fight against) I lost even if I parried it because I won't be able to get off enough damage. Cultist Robe will absorb my E, Cleric Blocks it (and protects against any interrupts and gives them 3 seconds of increased damage while invulnerable which can completely screw me), Mage Robe instantly triggers and wipes my stacks and prevents me from stacking for 8 seconds, and do you honestly think I'm going to kill somebody after I used my Parry to protect/reflect paltry damage and my E was completely negated? My only recourse is spamming Q until cooldowns are back, and that means I have to get close to the opponent, tank all of their guaranteed hits, and hope they don't just kite me which outright prevents me from damaging them. I cannot deal the damage required to kill them, and they can not only land virtually all of their attacks at massive damage bonuses but then escape if things go wrong; something melee can't do without giving them even more damage. You lose. There's absolutely no winning. That's game. That's the problem. I can't even try to mitigate this with Leather/Plate because the defenses don't scale against the damage and the abilities are atrocious.
      Why would you talk about parrying a siege bow? just walk around it for the love of god!

      You said on hellion.

      Acoustic wrote:

      In group fights, and it's instantly purgable by toggling Mage Robe rendering it completely worthless or toggling invincibility or just kiting it.. In solo fights it does nothing.
      Almost everything in the game is purgeable, its a game mechanic, what you want un-purgeable abilities now? you can also purge your beloved cleric robe and mage robe, actually you can purge 90% of all chest abilities in the game.


      You said on stalker.

      Acoustic wrote:

      You have never used it, have you? 400 damage MAYBE at high spec because it's affected by resistances (so even against Cloth users cut it's written damage by over half), requires you to be point-blank with the enemy, takes up your most valuable equipment slot in the entire game, and has every single weakness Hellion does. It's practically worthless, especially with how bad it scales with higher IP. There is no reason to use this even for PvE unless you are specifically leveling Artifact Jackets.
      You are literally just making things up, STALKER IS THE MOST POPULAR AND USED LEATHER JACKET FOR BRUISERS IN 5V5 META RIGHT NOW. on top of that, I run it all the time and wipe the floor with people like you.

      You said on assassin.

      Acoustic wrote:

      One, it's never OP. It's one of the longest cooldown armor abilities in the game, and two: it's countered by... literally walking away. That's it. If you see me disappear because I have Assassin Jacket on, and I'm melee, just walk away; maybe even pop your sprint. I either have to chase you and get none of the benefits of the ability or stand there like a moron trying to stack something I'll never be able to use; either way it's basically pointless on most weapons in the game. Plus, you know, you can't build stacks while using it and most melee weapons require you to build stacks to deal damage and it only works for the first attack coming out of invisibility unlike Hellion Shoes which sticks around for 4 seconds. Honestly, Ranged attackers use it better in every way and they aren't using it because it's not a strong pick. And again, you're instantly trading 20-28% damage for an 8 second invisibility with a long CD and potentially only 40% additional damage (a net gain after stacked perfectly of 12-20% as opposed to just having it constantly if wearing a robe), so it's a really bad item in general that only works on a few weapons... and most of them are going to pick Robes every time
      Agreed, cooldown is kinda long, BUT it works as an interrupt for ANY channeled ability in the game. that in itself is very powerful before you even consider the actual benefits of the ability, like increased damage, invisibility. it also again I will say it, has the highest % damage bonus of all the leathers and can deal very good damage, close to cloth while also having a good defense.

      You said on hunter.

      Acoustic wrote:

      Bow is particularly strong with that jacket, but there's an ASPD cap and bows can basically hit it without Hunter. Melee can't do auto attack builds, because if they could 1H Dagger might actually be useful, and if you're using a Bow you're already dealing enough damage as is; consider the fact that by putting Hunter Jacket on you're losing 25-33% damage instantly over Robes and the buff only gives you ASPD and 20% damage. It's not worth using
      You are correct, a bow can hit the speed cap without using hunter jacket. for the last 4 arrows of the chain, hunter jacket allows you to get up to speed without the long windup and is great for instant dps swaps to squashys and healers to take them by surprise, that being said, its my least favourate of all the leather jackets and I don't really use this one myself, since I don't play boring auto attack builds.


      On specter.

      Acoustic wrote:

      ...so hit the Camlann twice and it dies because the idiot is wearing leather and can barely be healed while constantly damaging himself with True damage. This isn't even a thing and you know it. Specter Jacket is so situational and even then it's not even worth using plus it's a Relic. The damage doesn't even scale with IP, and it's true damage which is great against tanks but practically worthless against Cloth. It may be one of the worst niche items in the game.
      Watch the first video I posted in the thread at 6m15s-6m-20s a specter jacket camlann combo almost wipes our whole group with a surprise attack from the rear. not even a thing? climb out the arena and take a look. here it is again just incase.


      Acoustic wrote:

      I get the distinct feeling you're writing this out but you yourself have never tried to use any of these in any PVP. Leather is bad.
      I mean, did you even watch any of the 2 videos I posted for you? or check my killboard. 90% of my kills are in leather using a melee weapon. I checked your's, and with 1.4m pvp fame I am not sure you have had much time at all to check out any of this pvp yourself. infact if I look at your last 2 months of history you have had 0 kills recorded. so why are you arguing that you know best? your confusing me.
    • Throatcutter wrote:

      Honestly I cant comment any more, this guy is the most clueless person ive ever heard. THIS IS THE LAST TIME I WILL WRITE THIS.

      You said on hellion.
      Almost everything in the game is purgeable, its a game mechanic, what you want un-purgeable abilities now? you can also purge your beloved cleric robe and mage robe, actually you can purge 90% of all chest abilities in the game.

      You said on stalker.
      You are literally just making things up, STALKER IS THE MOST POPULAR AND USED LEATHER JACKET FOR BRUISERS IN 5V5 META RIGHT NOW. on top of that, I run it all the time and wipe the floor with people like you.


      You said on assassin.
      Agreed, cooldown is kinda long, BUT it works as an interrupt for ANY channeled ability in the game. that in itself is very powerful before you even consider the actual benefits of the ability, like increased damage, invisibility. it also again I will say it, has the highest % damage bonus of all the leathers and can deal very good damage, close to cloth while also having a good defense.


      You said on hunter.
      You are correct, a bow can hit the speed cap without using hunter jacket. for the last 4 arrows of the chain, hunter jacket allows you to get up to speed without the long windup and is great for instant dps swaps to squashys and healers to take them by surprise, that being said, its my least favourate of all the leather jackets and I don't really use this one myself, since I don't play boring auto attack builds.

      On specter.
      Watch the first video I posted in the thread at 6m15s-6m-20s a specter jacket camlann combo almost wipes our whole group with a surprise attack from the rear. not even a thing? climb out the arena and take a look. here it is again just incase.

      I mean, did you even watch any of the 2 videos I posted for you? or check my killboard. 90% of my kills are in leather using a melee weapon. I checked your's, and with 1.4m pvp fame I am not sure you have had much time at all to check out any of this pvp yourself. infact if I look at your last 2 months of history you have had 0 kills recorded. so why are you arguing that you know best? your confusing me.
      I really can't agree with you that Acoustic is clueless, the guy has only used stats to back himself up, he clearly knows the mechanics behind his play, while he might be a little dramatic he's not wrong on the overall impact difference between cloth and leather.

      The mage robe is hella strong, your giving rdps the armor of plate, it makes sense to some extent but cloth players get to use cleric cowl, mage robe and cleric or mage sandals. If your curse you just pop mage robe when the mdps come at you, let them start rebuilding stacks while you walk away and q, then when their back up to 3 you can use your great curse to root and then e while mage sandal blinking away, preventing them from catching you. That's if you wanted to waste your cc on it, or you can just blink away. Swords can't kill you on their own, they can get you fairly low, but not outright kill you unless they have rdps support. If I play smart as a Curse player its near impossible to ever die unless I risk myself.

      I play as a tank in 5v5 as well so I know how much of an effect purges have on mdps and rdps. For mdps purges are far harsher, I can reset whole fights for the enemy time if they're running two mdps with a tank and trying to dive for 40 seconds at a time. Meanwhile, against 2 rdps I'll have to be far more constant on the purges and they'd be down to 20 seconds, after that time they will have cc and defensives of some kind back in their hands to help turn the fight back on us.

      Saying that Stalker is useful in 5v5 is funny af btw, If you ran stalker jacket in the current lvl 1-3 of the CGVG league you will instantly be wiped off the face of the game. If you enemy is remotely competent the stalker's ability won't even pop up for a meaningful amount of time. Same for Hellion, healers run mage armor rn because its so tanky and purges any dive comps on them. Meanwhile you also put yourself in range for a poison, a poison that at that IP literally strips your armor of all value, your hp is going to vanish, no matter if you are wearing plate even. It's just funny that you think Stalker is good in 5v5, leather in general is pretty bad but Hellion is the best of the worst choices since you get some extra healing which if your up against a team with dots of some sort can help a little with staying about for longer.

      As to assassin jackets, if its in a 5v5 or a dungeon dive on my pver's and I'm tanking... I run enfeeble aura, don't care that its less optimal than a taunt, its why I have an offtank, I'll just pop my enfeeble and gbye to your invis dive. It's also the same if someone runs hellion, the red flare and then vanish plus the usual dg pair with it gives me all the warning I need, walk towards healer with enfeeble on and gbye to your damage output.

      Against specter jackets and camlanns... literally run toward the camlann while the rest of your guys spread and try to get into the range of the specters fire before the camlann collapses so you can have your cleric robe pop. Stand there stunned then use your escape or cc to lock/run and then kite till the enemy is near death from immolating themselves. The specter and balance staff is ok as well with that resist buff and slow, but if I'm a bow with frost shot and a second of time to switch abilities before getting dismounted. I'll win the fight unless you have 2 mates coming to back you up.

      why would I use a Hunter jacket as a bow either when I can use Mage robes? I get to purge any and all dmg buffs you might have on me and be more tanky, sure I lose out on dps, but I'm not scared of dying lmao the mdps charging me will have no dmg while they're in my range, if I'm a normal bow I'll be cheering my head off. I can rotate explosive or my e with my qs popping off and kill you hard. plus, If the mdps had a purge of their own, no doubt they chucked it already to stop my dmg buff of my e or w I used to bait them in on me with. Then they closed in, I popped robe and either my w or e that I hadn't popped earlier and watch them cry themselves to death.

      I'm not as extreme as Acoustic but I have to agree, Melee is far more nerfed then any other tree in weps and armor as a solo player's options to use and it has been for much of the game tbh. I can understand it to some degree, however, rdps is buffed now extremely hard, they have very good armor and weps. Hopefully the fact they're giving a new q for daggers there's going to be a good long li