There's virtually no point to melee in this game.

    • Acoustic wrote:

      and no Galatine E isn't interruptable but it's a weapon with a 30 Second CD on it's three stack ability that can be messed up a variety of ways with a 1.1 second delay that's plenty of time to blink/run away and relies entirely on either complete surprise (like the chaos of a ZvZ where you can't even see the person come in) or an excellent moment where the enemy is not only rooted/stunned but also close together and also you have all 3 stacks and also the cooldown isn't up etc. etc
      I mean, there's gotta be a price to pay for a huge AoE massive damage ability. Brimstone is similar and it takes even longer to hit as well as having a cast time (advantage being no charges required).

      Also you can't just dismiss the carving sword like that. It's damage is decent, no not the most, but the AoE massive armor shred more than makes up for it. That is super strong. Plus, it's more mobility.

      Acoustic wrote:

      Correct, I posted it in rants. I'm frustrated. This isn't the environment for Feedback and Suggestions because the original post would just turn people off and to be honest I expected, "Acoustic you're an idiot, simply do this and this and now you can deal with all those Ranged attackers and dump on them with your Daggers/Swords" but that hasn't happened yet. I want to be educated. I want to log in, change a few things, and get back into the game in a far better mood. That isn't happening. Every night since this thread has gone up things just get worse and worse as I see no solutions to the problems I keep having.
      You ignored my post, so let me repeat myself.

      Advantages of melee:
      • More mobility (most important)
      • More health
      • Resilience penetration
      • Better damage on basic autos and Qs (exception being spells that require you to stand still and cast)
      Advantages of ranged:
      • Range
      I mean range helps a lot, obviously let's not underplay it, but they gave a lot to melee to compensate. Let's try as simple an example as possible. Run at an enemy ranged player with claws. The instant they can attack you dash to them, and they will maybe get a single attack before you can hit them. Ignoring the abilities on armor for now to keep things simple, your claws will do more damage than any ranged weapon (even with you wearing leather) and you'll win easy.

      Edit: Since OP is focused on arenas, why don't we give some examples from the highest tier 5v5. I was never aware of an old GvG meta without a melee DPS, often two, but now we have the crystal realm battles. Here's two quick videos I found with matches. While lewpac is a ranged DPS focused player, you'll see both teams have melee DPS in both games. If everyone has melee DPS in there team comps, maybe there's a reason for it?


      The post was edited 1 time, last by FriendlyFire ().

    • Evas_Flarelight wrote:

      @Captainrussia The OP posted the thread here in the Rants section, it wasn't moved by any moderator.

      If @Acoustic would like to move it to Feedback and Suggestions instead, then please let us know.
      Ah sorry, wasn't aware. I honestly thought that all post that end up in "rants" are moved here by mods. So nevermind on that one ;)

      Throatcutter wrote:

      I think we're wasting our time here.

      You should experience more of the game and play styles honestly, because almost all of your points are flawed due to either not being aware of the hard counters vs ranged or simply not bringing them up
      Well, for someone (as the OP) with supposedly such little PVE/PVP experience (and just judging by "stats" - which I personally belive as being a biased mechanism to judge skill, as that was often used against me in the past as well, and 10 mil of my PVP fame is leeched from ZvZ - I will be the only poster on these forums to openly admit that) - he has been making very good, observational and constructive posts.

      I don't think we are wasting time here. As veteran players - the lest we could do is provide some "quick tips" on how to counter ranged as a melee, right? You have mentioned you know of some? ;)

      On another note - back to OPs post #20 on the previous page - he raises some good points, and I can already see a trend from a new player perspective. He wasn't here when all of the leather armor got continuously nerfed and cloth armors buffed. And this is a true trend by the way. Over the past 2 years - Leather armors have been receiving continuous nerfs (started with Merc jacket no being able to heal off poisons, because Bloodletter kiters were abusing that, but then BL itself got its E nerfed, resulting in a double-nerf for the Merc jacket). Assasin jacket's invis got nerfed (CD increased) - because Great Nature was abusing that to PVP "rat" in group static dungeons, but then mob leash range and nature itself got re-made. Infernal Shield got nerfed (less reflect). Hunter Hood got nerfed (5 sec to 4 sec reflect) - and then 1h xbow E and 1h Curse E got buffed to be "unreflectable", essentially resulting in a double nerf to Hunter Hood (Leather again). Axe W skill "Adrenaline Rush" used to have CC immunity - but that got removed and got moved over to GraveGuard Boots. Less "damage delivery" as I call it.

      While all this time multiple and multiple buffs to cloth armors. Mage robe completely buffed and re-designed (I don't even remember what the old ability was, it was so useless, but now its a hot topic in every "its OP item" discussion). Cleric Cawl got buffed - and I agree that having an item with 0 counters in a game makes no sense. Cloth armor CC resist got buffed. Force Field actually got buffed (the range on it used to be shitty).

      So we are seeing a continuous trend here of nerfing Leather armors and buffing Cloth, to a point where its like taking a cold shower, turning down the cold water knob bit by bit and turning up hot water to where we are now just burning ourselves with boiling hot water. Cloth armors got overtuned - and I think this is true. Or whats worse - is that all the "leather nerfs" that were put in place as a bandaid fix (Merc no heal from poison and Hunter Hood nerf) got their respective symptoms fixed (bloodletter nerf and no reflect on multiple abilities) - while still keeping those bandainds in place. I think we need to reverse like 80% of the Leather armor nerfs. All the silly bandaid fixes need to be reversed.

      Also does anyone remember when leather armor had a move speed passive? (this was like in alpha?) that would be a complete game changer for melee classes (some range can use it too, but at a great damage reduction trade off).

      @Retroman - the defensive abilities in this game are overtuned - and they greatly favor those who can stack on defensives (kiting and being able to attack at range - is also considered a "defensive") - i.e, the ranged characters. Melee needs more CC immunity, more utility (Spears and Swords no need apply) which should result in better "damage delivery". Better catch abilities on leather (I think the idea for leather is to have a mix of utility and a bit of damage, but right now the utility on leather armor is absolute crap). The only leather armor (chest) worth using is Hellion Jacket (and to some very rare degree Assassin) - and that only works vs dumb melee characters (who are not Swords or Spears). I can bet I can put Hellion on Bow/Xbow or Curse and fight multiple melee characters and win. Fighting multiple ranged characters with that set up would of course result in a loss.

      I agree that the new Avalonian Robe (while being extremely expensive) exclusively favors ranged characters or those who do not want to be "touched in melee" (healers or transporters/travelers). There is no such item that "sticks/binds" a ranged opponent to your body for 7 sec straight to be used by a melee. I'd love to be able to stick to someone for 7 sec straight by just using my armor ability (no. not my weapon). There is none.

      Oh and in HCE that I've been running with guild for the past couple of days - I've been told that for lvl 10+ being a melee DPS makes no sense (I've yet to test this though, and me being me - I certainly will be stubborn and I will test it). I was told its way too hard to dodge abilities (1 mistake = Im dead), while bringing range, I can have much easier time not having to dodge as much (if at all).

      EDIT:

      And yes the only things (already mentioned in the post above) is that melee does get better AOE (or "easier" AOE - its basically spamming Qs). Some melee gets good mobility/utility - but thats primarily swords (SBI's favorite weapon), and spears to a degree. Daggers get decent mobility. Axe is forced to play Adrenaline Rush on W or get deleted (not talking mass or group combat here, thats a diff story) Carving is very strong, and stacks can be re-stacked very fast. Clarent is basically a 1handed Halberd, with lower CD. Use DMG boosting offhands - and you will have a higher hitting Halberd thats called a Clarent. Halberd on the other hand is the only "instand Damage AOE" axe, while all others rely heavily on bleeds. Halberd (because its the only one with instant DMG AOE) is also the lowest hitting one of all the axes. It had to trade off something. Of course if the other axe weapon bleeds get cleansed - then they deal no damge. Hence why Halberd is so popular. It basically has no counter (cant cleanse the bleeds as it does not have any on the E, the "bleed spreading effect" barely adds any damage anyway).

      But all of that mobility only really works well in group PVP or when using vs other melee classes. When using vs a ranged class with stacked defensives/boop and slows - its much less useful.

      If anyone wants to make people uninstall the game - go take warbow with Heretic cape (oh - I bet this one is so underused, you forgot what ability it even has?) into solo Random Dungeons and dive people. Any melee you come across you will delete. They will uninstall (figurative speech haha). If you are bad, or if you come across top solo melee PVP'er - bring a Skinner cap. 3 hard CC spells will allow you to delete any melee in any tier of gear. They will uninstall I can guaranteed you. (again figurative speech haha, just trying to make a point of how frustrating that OP underused build can be)

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Captainrussia ().

    • Captainrussia wrote:

      you first use E, then delayed blink - 99.9% that enemy will not see it coming. Takes exceptional timing and exceptional ping to execute.
      No he had it right. You can't cast delayed blink while casting another spell. I guess you haven't used mage sandals much?

      The trick of delayed blink is that you cast it, and then can do anything else for 1 second and you'll still blink to the location. It doesn't even interrupt channels when you are moved. Hence you cast delayed blink, start casting your E, and you are moved before your cast finishes.

      The timing is also not hard at all. You literally just cast blink where you want to go, and then hit E. Since galatines cast is slightly longer than delayed blink, you can't truly mess it up, you just want to start your E as quickly as possible to remove any chance for enemies to react. The trickiest part is getting the stacks in a ZvZ, and choosing your location to hit.
    • FriendlyFire wrote:

      Captainrussia wrote:

      you first use E, then delayed blink - 99.9% that enemy will not see it coming. Takes exceptional timing and exceptional ping to execute.
      No he had it right. You can't cast delayed blink while casting another spell. I guess you haven't used mage sandals much?
      The trick of delayed blink is that you cast it, and then can do anything else for 1 second and you'll still blink to the location. It doesn't even interrupt channels when you are moved. Hence you cast delayed blink, start casting your E, and you are moved before your cast finishes.

      The timing is also not hard at all. You literally just cast blink where you want to go, and then hit E. Since galatines cast is slightly longer than delayed blink, you can't truly mess it up, you just want to start your E as quickly as possible to remove any chance for enemies to react. The trickiest part is getting the stacks in a ZvZ, and choosing your location to hit.
      you are correct, I derped on that one. Edited my original post. I've rarely used delayed blink to be honest (I tested it to make sure I know how it works, with like Boltcasters and stuff, but that was a while ago), but regardless, that delayed blink combo with Galatines is the best way to get claps - we can all agree on that.
    • I do not agree with 80% of your post @Acoustic , you still got low experience. BUT, i agree with one statement - cloth armor line is way more powerful and unbalanced, comparing to other Leather/Heavy armors, they got much more build variations(and stats scaling), when all others do not have it. As one guy typed higher @moking , and i agree with him , there are some exceptions/niche situations. But overall - cloth is "Op" in some sort.
    • Equart wrote:

      I do not agree with 80% of your post @Acoustic , you still got low experience. BUT, i agree with one statement - cloth armor line is way more powerful and unbalanced, comparing to other Leather/Heavy armors, they got much more build variations(and stats scaling), when all others do not have it. As one guy typed higher @moking , and i agree with him , there are some exceptions/niche situations. But overall - cloth is "Op" in some sort.
      yep - and I attributed that to basically 2 years "worth of" leahter nerfs and cloth buffs.

      And then my point about "damage delivery".
    • FriendlyFire wrote:

      I mean, there's gotta be a price to pay for a huge AoE massive damage ability. Brimstone is similar and it takes even longer to hit as well as having a cast time (advantage being no charges required).

      Also you can't just dismiss the carving sword like that. It's damage is decent, no not the most, but the AoE massive armor shred more than makes up for it. That is super strong. Plus, it's more mobility.
      Craving Sword is almost an exception because it's one of the few castable AOE resistance shreds in the game. It's Damage is mediocre at best for a 20 second CD ability, and it's range is pretty short; but it holds the distinction for being the only sword that can deal damage even after being purged. It's not enough to matter in my opinion, but it fills a niche. It will lose to basically any other sword 1v1, and it's arguable if it's actually better for 1vX fights because eliminating a target faster would be more appropriate in the current melee one-shot/finisher meta.

      FriendlyFire wrote:

      You ignored my post, so let me repeat myself.
      I apologize, that wasn't my intent.

      FriendlyFire wrote:

      Advantages of melee:


      More mobility (most important)

      More health

      Resilience penetration

      Better damage on basic autos and Qs (exception being spells that require you to stand still and cast)
      1) Mobility is a given, but it isn't good enough. Ranged has this too, and most ranged have hard CC abilities and slows that cancel this out. Crossbows have multiple knockbacks (one of which is a passive), Bows have Roots like Ray of Light and a passive slow, frost has hard CC freezing and slows, fire has firewall which hard-counters Melee; there's even more and that doesn't even count the multitude of defensive armor abilities on top of that. Melee is blowing multiple skills just to get in and deal damage, and even then the damage isn't greater than ranged to the point in many engagements you'll see Ranged stand in place just dealing maximum DPS. Think about Bow and 1H Dagger, both are supposed to be virtually the same thing: single target auto attack DPS. 1H Dagger is worthless because if the opponent moves at all it interrupts your auto-attacks while on bows if you pop everything the enemy has to try to escape away from you while slowed/rooted and it hits so much harder than 1H Dagger which invalidates the entire weapon.

      2) The health isn't even worth discussing. I don't even think it's 200 more health at 8.3MP with full spec. It's completely negligible.

      3) This was added exclusively to make Melee even remotely viable in ZvZ, but that's it. It makes the small amount of viable ZvZ weapons viable.

      4) It's a negligible amount, in fact I don't even honestly know if that's true with things like Poison Arrow or Burning Field. Is it nice? Certainly, but you have to be able to hit your opponents and theres's so many ways to stop that in this game. Think about it, ranged attackers not only have multiple defensive abilities to keep you away, but then they also have multiple bonker defensive armor abilities like Levitate or Energy Emission to prevent you doing even more damage all the while you have basically no way of stopping them. That's where this problem lies, because dealing 200 vs 300 damage is completely pointless when the 200 Damage happens constantly with almost no interruption when the 300 Damage has a shorter range than your basic melee auto attack. Yes, you absolutely can create an elite team that works together to make Melee viable: there is going to be Ranged in there. Ranged is a requirement. You are NOT going to be winning CGvG fights without ranged attackers, or even multiple ones. Both teams have Melee specifically as a support in your videos, while the entire focus of both teams is to stop the ranged DPS because it's a higher threat with Melee almost being ignored until they get caught by abilities to get low and then finished off. Melee is not strong enough in this game to be used by itself, it will lose almost every time to Ranged attackers, which is the problem I've been saying the entire time. You can completely shut-down a Melee attacker, so they're relegated as a weird almost optional support, and that makes the pool of useful Melee options extremely limited. At what point is Melee damage a requirement? What is Melee Damage doing that Ranged doesn't despite a few nice effects like Bleeds that support your ranged attackers? Is it actually impossible to win a fight with a time that's say Curse/Fire/Crossbow/Healer/Tank over Sword/Sword/Axe/Healer/Tank? I very much doubt it, in fact the latter will most likely lose every engagement no matter how good they are at the game but of course I'd love to be proven wrong.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      I think we're wasting our time here.

      You should experience more of the game and play styles honestly, because almost all of your points are flawed due to either not being aware of the hard counters vs ranged or simply not bringing them up
      I have over a thousand hours in this game. That isn't enough? Seriously? I have learned every item at a glance on a character and what loadout that person is most likely using and how I could potentially fight them. 1H Curse Staff with Specter Hood and Cultist Robe? GG, there's nothing even with a Broadsword with Interrupt and a Guardian Helm I can do to win: they're going to absolutely wreck me just because they deal damage while healing and being invulnerable to my attacks that I have to blow my hard-hitting abilities to interrupt them meaning my already inferior damage is gimped even more, and I can't kite these targets to get my abilities back: they're RANGED ATTACKERS. It's cheese. It isn't skill, I'm not being outplayed, most builds that fight against that kind of garbage are going to lose and it's only worse if you're Melee. This is why I don't even bother to try to PVP in the wild, it's a waste of time when I'm going to go up against this garbage. Every single ranged character I see now is most likely using Cleric Cowl/Mage Robe because that covers just about anything they'll go against Melee wise and that makes the game extremely boring as there's no counter play there. I'm not even talking about, "Oh this is a hard match up, I have to be really smart and hope they mess up to win", we're seriously saying you have no chance to win if the player is even remotely competent at similar IP values.

      And one of my original complaints is that the values and abilities in Leather/Plate aren't viable for melee DPS. Robes are way too strong, and it appears there's some agreement on that, but the debate is if that is one of the causes to Melee being so underwhelming compared to Ranged.
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      While all this time multiple and multiple buffs to cloth armors. Mage robe completely buffed and re-designed (I don't even remember what the old ability was, it was so useless, but now its a hot topic in every "its OP item" discussion). Cleric Cawl got buffed - and I agree that having an item with 0 counters in a game makes no sense. Cloth armor CC resist got buffed. Force Field actually got buffed (the range on it used to be shitty).
      My main issue with Mage Robe is that there's no tell until it's already on. There are a few times where, "Oh they popped Mage Robe and I wasn't attacking/bleeding them so I'm not screwed yet!". This kind of thing needs to have a .4 second Cast Time so you can clearly see it go off and make the decision to at least not attack, even though we're still talking 8 seconds of them being unapproachable and they have Plate Armor now to boot.

      Cleric Cowl is BS. It was strong before they buffed to to work while CC'd, now it's just oppressive. That shut down Dagger Pair/Black Hands/Claymore outright, and more weapons I'm sure; those are just the ones I personally felt were the most affected. In team fights, it's ridiculous because it gives your healer several moments to throw a heal on you and then most likely something of yours is off cooldown by the time you're forced out of it... and you can cancel it at any time for better control. It's broken.

      Force Field is too easy to switch to. You swap one ability and you're now immune to a lot of Melee abilities? That's just dumb. It's available to every Cloth cowl in the game.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      Also does anyone remember when leather armor had a move speed passive? (this was like in alpha?) that would be a complete game changer for melee classes (some range can use it too, but at a great damage reduction trade off).
      THIS IS SOMETHING I HAVE BEEN WONDERING FOR SOME TIME. Why can't I throw on a passive 12% Movement Speed on my Leather Jacket so I can chase down people who walk away from me!? This makes sense with how Stalker/Hellion/Specter Jacket/Merc Jacket (on Melee)/Hunter Jacket (On Melee) work as well! That ABSOLUTELY needs to be a thing! That would solve so many problems! Does anybody actually use the attack speed buff on anything that isn't a Bow?

      Captainrussia wrote:

      Daggers get decent mobility.
      They do, but the problem is if you go for a typical Assassin Spirit/Dash/Slit Throat on Dagger Pair you have exactly 1 Damage dealing ability. Sure, with the proper setup you can deal like 1200-1500 damage in one hit plus a sizable bleed, but this requires tons of timing and practice and if anything goes wrong you're practically useless as you wait for all these abilities to come off CD... and since you're melee and Slit Throat has a huge tell with it's Cast Time that's interruptable, it's too easy to have something to shut it down. If you try to do something like Sunder Armor/Shadow Edge/Slit Throat, you'll run into the problem that without a speed boost people can legitimately just walk away from you and there's nothing you can do. You can't land Qs, you can't land the 3 Qs you'd need for Slit Throat, and you're probably getting shot by spells and arrows the entire time. This is why Daggers aren't really used in anything besides Ganking (Bloodletter is used for finishing people off, and Deathgivers are probably the only consistently usable dagger but that's still not viable for small scale/zvz), where you can potentially have the perfect storm with the first hit dealing all that damage and the enemy being at an immediate disadvantage because of the element of Surprise. If any weapon deserved a passive movement speed buff, it's Daggers. I actually think every dagger passive ability needs to be looked at, as they're copy-paste of other melee and do nothing to synergize with the weapon: they are a very technical weapon choice and none of their passives work for this.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      Use DMG boosting offhands - and you will have a higher hitting Halberd thats called a Clarent.
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but Halberd is good for not just the damage but the Bleed Stacks applied to all targets as well, right? So You can hit one target with multiple stacks, then spread that to everybody your E hits, dealing passive damage and affecting healing. Clarent just deals damage, and while on paper it could be good if AOE heals weren't so common, they are. The pure damage isn't good enough to warrant using for anything, and Clarent is basically a PVE only weapon and still is behind Greataxe/Halberd/Infernal Scythe when it comes to PVE... and most of those are also super effective PVP tools as well. Clarent needs a secondary effect or a Ranged Effect to make it worth using in most situations.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      I agree that the new Avalonian Robe (while being extremely expensive) exclusively favors ranged characters or those who do not want to be "touched in melee" (healers or transporters/travelers). There is no such item that "sticks/binds" a ranged opponent to your body for 7 sec straight to be used by a melee.
      Even if it did do such a thing, would that fix the problem? Ranged can use that too to prevent you from escaping, and things like Bow will absolutely out damage any melee in the game if left unpurged, and if that was on a chest armor that would be taking up a potential purge slot. It would definitely be nice as an option, but people would just say use Graveguard Armor... which is a highly situational pick.
    • Acoustic wrote:

      Does anybody actually use the attack speed buff on anything that isn't a Bow?
      Attack speed passive is arguably a must on spears (dependend on some set ups, but since spears are mostly auto-attk based, and deal like 200 DMG per auto - this is definitely a top priority). Unless you are running some one-shot or out of the meta builds (or rat/escape). I've also ran attack speed passive when wielding 2h weapons (they have high DMG per swing, but slow swing, so with attk speed - the autos actually hurt, and when paired with Life Leech can actually heal you for something that is decent). Its more of a flavor thing, as I've ran full CDR as well, and often times I still switch 50-50 between the two. Its situational. When running SRD and waiting to get dove - high attack speed with 2h weapon (like Infernal Scythe) and Life Leech with keep your HP topped off more, so you are better prepared when the gankers come. Not gonna claim it to be a "gamechanger" - but its a nice bonus to not be low on HP.

      Acoustic wrote:

      You can't land Qs, you can't land the 3 Qs you'd need for Slit Throat, and you're probably getting shot by spells and arrows the entire time. This is why Daggers aren't really used in anything besides Ganking (Bloodletter is used for finishing people off, and Deathgivers are probably the only consistently usable dagger but that's still not viable for small scale/zvz),
      Here is a pretty mediocre video of me on a Bloodletter and in Leather (this was before the BL E-skill nerf to 25 sec), doing solo PVP (while PVE'ing roaming mobs in OW) when I was a pretty bad PVP'er and I was still starting out (posted almost 1.5 yrs ago now). Actually this is the first solo PVP video I ever released. As you can see, I don't really have issues staying on target, even on ranged targets and landing my Q's. And I was pretty bad back then.


      Acoustic wrote:

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but Halberd is good for not just the damage but the Bleed Stacks applied to all targets as well, right? So You can hit one target with multiple stacks, then spread that to everybody your E hits, dealing passive damage and affecting healing.
      The whole "bleed stack spreading" thing only looks good on paper. Since in group PVP you will be using your AOE Q-s on the Halberd - all the targets around you will already have max 3 stacks of bleed and the 20% healing debuff. So the Halberd E really just deals instant damage. It is very rare that somehow you have a target that is stacked to 3, and them some other targets end up in the range of your E AOE and get those 3 stacks applied. Plus the bleed at 3 stacks only ticks for like 30 pts/tick (after armor/resists i.e. effective DMG), which is pretty small. Thats like 150 DMG total. So the only thing Halberd has going for it in 90% of scenarios is instant AOE DMG on a 15 sec CD. Its the same 15 sec as the Clarent.
      Clarent E (at t4 flat) deals 528 instant DMG (further buffable by a proper offhand) - while Halberd E (at t4 flat) deals 319 instant DMG. And you cant further buff it by an offhand, as its a 2hander.

      Acoustic wrote:

      Clarent just deals damage, and while on paper it could be good if AOE heals weren't so common, they are. The pure damage isn't good enough to warrant using for anything, and Clarent is basically a PVE only weapon and still is behind Greataxe/Halberd/Infernal Scythe when it comes to PVE... and most of those are also super effective PVP tools as well. Clarent needs a secondary effect or a Ranged Effect to make it worth using in most situations.
      Clarent is def better then halberd for PVE. I won't speak to its PVP viability - as I have very little proof (I've played with the weapon, but my spec is not that high, 30/100 and I have very limited PVP footage, if anyone were to ask for proof), but I think that its not a bad weapon for what it is (entry level artifact weapon). Its basically a mini-galatine. And unlike Halberd - Clarent has 3 instant damaging AOE's (which can stack up high) = AOE on Q + W + E.
      Why did I underline instant?
      a) because if its not a bleed = it cant be cleansed (and therefore nullified). Instant DMG cannot be "cleansed".
      b) If instant damage is dealt more then the targets HP pool = the target is dead (instantly), and there is no coming back from that. Having a DOT/bleed on you gives your healer/support (or even your Martlock cape) more time to actually save you. Instant damage cannot trigger Martlock Cape if it kills you from above 25% HP.

      Acoustic wrote:

      Even if it did do such a thing, would that fix the problem? Ranged can use that too to prevent you from escaping, and things like Bow will absolutely out damage any melee in the game if left unpurged, and if that was on a chest armor that would be taking up a potential purge slot.
      Bow will out damage any melee if left unpurged (aside from 1 shot melee builds) correct - but do you know that "purging" the bow isnt the only counter, right? Iceblock (item equally available to all types of classes) or any reflect skill that has a lasting effect (Infernal Shield or Hunter Hood or Spear Deflecting Spin) - would absolutely delete the Bow who does not stop attacking. Also majority of invisibility spells can prevent bow from dealing DMG, but of course bow will most likely have E back up again once your Invis ends.

      Personally - I would really like the reflect spells be "un-nerfed" to their previous values as alternative "non melee range" ways of dealing with ranged characters. That means Hunter Hood back to 5 sec duration (and was it 30 sec CD?) and Infernal Shield back to 60% reflect, not the measly 30% that it does now.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Captainrussia ().

    • Captainrussia wrote:

      Here is a pretty mediocre video of me on a Bloodletter and in Leather (this was before the BL E-skill nerf to 25 sec), doing solo PVP (while PVE'ing roaming mobs in OW) when I was a pretty bad PVP'er and I was still starting out (posted almost 1.5 yrs ago now). Actually this is the first solo PVP video I ever released. As you can see, I don't really have issues staying on target, even on ranged targets and landing my Q's. And I was pretty bad back then.
      Seems like everybody was pretty bad back then. Your first fight was a guy...farming...in claws? The second fight was against a Frost Mage that after getting dismounted didn't attack you when he saw your W and E were both on CD, and the third fight the guy chases after you with a distinct HP disadvantage and didn't pay attention to your R being up the entire time. All horrendous plays by your opponents lol. Also does Poison still heal your Merc jacket? I don't think it does anymore but I could be wrong.

      The issue I see with a build like that is after you blew your W/E you had no real damage but spamming Qs and weak auto attacks and in most fights that's basically, "The" fight with a Bloodletter. It's not a terrible weapon, it definitely has it's use, but in a world of Cleric Cowl/Cultist Robe/Cleric Robe/insert anti melee mechanic here, how does it fair? It just doesn't have the damage output to stay toe to toe with a ranged attacker, one of your abilities if not two are being used JUST to attack the person.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      The whole "bleed stack spreading" thing only looks good on paper. Since in group PVP you will be using your AOE Q-s on the Halberd - all the targets around you will already have max 3 stacks of bleed and the 20% healing debuff. So the Halberd E really just deals instant damage. It is very rare that somehow you have a target that is stacked to 3, and them some other targets end up in the range of your E AOE and get those 3 stacks applied. Plus the bleed at 3 stacks only ticks for like 30 pts/tick (after armor/resists i.e. effective DMG), which is pretty small. Thats like 150 DMG total. So the only thing Halberd has going for it in 90% of scenarios is instant AOE DMG on a 15 sec CD. Its the same 15 sec as the Clarent.
      Clarent E (at t4 flat) deals 528 instant DMG (further buffable by a proper offhand) - while Halberd E (at t4 flat) deals 319 instant DMG. And you cant further buff it by an offhand, as its a 2hander.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      Clarent is def better then halberd for PVE. I won't speak to its PVP viability - as I have very little proof (I've played with the weapon, but my spec is not that high, 30/100 and I have very limited PVP footage, if anyone were to ask for proof), but I think that its not a bad weapon for what it is (entry level artifact weapon). Its basically a mini-galatine. And unlike Halberd - Clarent has 3 instant damaging AOE's (which can stack up high) = AOE on Q + W + E.
      Why did I underline instant?
      a) because if its not a bleed = it cant be cleansed (and therefore nullified). Instant DMG cannot be "cleansed".
      b) If instant damage is dealt more then the targets HP pool = the target is dead (instantly), and there is no coming back from that. Having a DOT/bleed on you gives your healer/support (or even your Martlock cape) more time to actually save you. Instant damage cannot trigger Martlock Cape if it kills you from above 25% HP.
      In my experience trying to Clarent in Arenas or ZvZ the problem is you either get kited, CC'd, and even in a fight fully hitting all opponents you do barely any damage. I've tried multiple times and a fully charged E after I blink in with Stalker Shoes does like 380 damage in Arenas, which is practically nothing when the average HP is 1900.. And it's mana hungry, so after a few seconds spamming Qs and E in combat, you're rendered useless. I always figured Halberd was a bit better because it quickly deals damage to a bunch of people and has a secondary/tertiary effect with the bleed and the heal debuff. Neither are great from what I've seen but it always felt like Axes had way more going for it to get in, deal a bit of Chaos, and get out compared to a Clarent blade. When you think about it yeah, those 3 AOEs should hurt... but they seriously don't. I've never seen a reliable Clarent blade and I've tried every build I can think of. It just doesn't feel viable, and if it was we'd see a lot more of them.


      Captainrussia wrote:

      Bow will out damage any melee if left unpurged (aside from 1 shot melee builds) correct - but do you know that "purging" the bow isnt the only counter, right? Iceblock (item equally available to all types of classes) or any reflect skill that has a lasting effect (Infernal Shield or Hunter Hood or Spear Deflecting Spin) - would absolutely delete the Bow who does not stop attacking. Also majority of invisibility spells can prevent bow from dealing DMG, but of course bow will most likely have E back up again once your Invis ends.

      Personally - I would really like the reflect spells be "un-nerfed" to their previous values as alternative "non melee range" ways of dealing with ranged characters. That means Hunter Hood back to 5 sec duration (and was it 30 sec CD?) and Infernal Shield back to 60% reflect, not the measly 30% that it does now.
      Yes, in the world of bad bows just auto-attacking somebody with impunity is going to get you to kill yourself. I don't think that's super viable though, because the situation in practice is more of they're at range so the second they see you pop anything they can retreat/kite you until that effect wears off. Fiend Cowl is pretty damning because it hits them once at range, but they'll have their CDs back way before you have a Fiend Cowl again and if they're kiting you effectively there's no real solution. That kiting, where you simply walk away from your opponent to stop their damage (melee) and get your damaging skills back? That's a huge part of the reason why Ranged is so powerful compared to melee, and if you've ever fought a Warbow you'd know exactly how utterly oppressive that is as a Melee because they can kill you without taking a single point of damage and at no point will you ever be able to hit them; the second you blow cooldowns to try to catch them they'll blow cooldowns to escape and you're dead in the water. This is the reality of most fights in this game Melee vs Ranged.

      But you're right there's more than one counter to a bow, and ironically most of it is the same stuff Bows use to counter Me. The problem? I Ice Block, the enemy walks away, I now need to close the distance again which screws me. I try to Levitate to heal? They can still shoot me and deal damage and they can also, again, get away from me to prevent my damage while still damaging me. Again, even if I do slightly more damage with my attacks, it won't matter if I can't land those attacks, and there are way too many things to prevent me from attacking.

      I'd love to see a cast time added to Mage Robe and a duration reduction, a passive move speed bonus added back to Leather Armors, many of the melee passives reworked as they're all almost all clones of each other and some like on Daggers are almost completely worthless, more abilities to punish ranged like Armor that can stun/root a single target that attacks you (similar to kind of how the new Avalonian Armor works but more accessible and based around a CC ability retaliation), and Ice Block going back to not being usable while CC'd because it was strong enough before that change.

      Like Stalker Jacket is redundant and pretty useless, right? It's damage is negligible in PVP and it's almost exclusively used for PVE even though there are other armors you can use in PVE like Hellion or Specter. What if it had an effect like Mage Robe where every time you get attacked the opponent gets a 20% movement speed debuff that stacks up to 5 times and lasts for 8 seconds. If you reach more than 5 Stacks, you explode and that deals a minimal amount of damage and roots you and people within 6 meters of you for 4 seconds or something. That would fit with the, "Stalker" theme and give Leather an option for counter-play. Is there anything that disables Auto Attacks? I could have sworn that was in the game but I can't find it. Also, is there anything that slows auto attacks? That would also be useful and I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

      Maybe Merc Jacket should only heal on Auto Attacks, but be changed to a % so it's way less cheesy on fire/curse/poison from bow and if it's true Melee does more damage per auto attack that'd help balance things out between the two as that is almost worse than Cultist Robe except it doesn't completely negate things like a perfectly stacked Dagger Pair E.
    • I think your biggest problem with understanding how DMG is dealt/mitigated is lack of spec. You have 10 mil PVE fame, correct? That is pretty low (especially if its split b/w multiple nodes), which probably means that everyone you hit - who has higher spec's gets a lot of DMG mitigation, and your low(er) spec's don't hit hard enough. Again - not trying to put you down, but trying to explain and help. Try focusing on 1 weapon and at least get everything to 70-70-70-70

      Acoustic wrote:

      Is there anything that disables Auto Attacks? I could have sworn that was in the game but I can't find it.
      Forceful Swing - W skill unlocked at lvl 40 on all Quarterstaves.

      Acoustic wrote:

      Also, is there anything that slows auto attacks? That would also be useful and I can't think of anything off the top of my head.
      Frost shield (on all Cloth robes) - the tooltip does not say slows attacks, only movement speed, but I could have sworn that in the past it slowed autos too.
      Howl - on all leather helmets. Slows movement speed and autos. IMHO needs a buff tho.
    • I mean you keep bringing up cultist robe like it's amazing, first of all, it's actually quite rarely used outside of safe zones due to the stupid price.

      Second, here is a list of stuff that counters it.

      Any sword running interrupt.
      Broadsword e
      Claymore e
      And mace running any one of 3 w abilities
      Heavy mace e
      Any quarterstaff with cartwheel
      Soulscythes e
      Ironclad e
      Quarterstaff e
      Demon helm
      All cloth helmets with bop
      Any xbow with forceful bolts
      Any fire staff with either wall or wave
      Frost prism e
      Any frost staff running nova
      1h hammer e
      Great hammer e
      Pole hammer e
      Any arcane with hush
      1h arcane e
      Any holy staff with sacred pulse
      Any crossbow with noise eraser
      Bla
      Bla
      Bla
      Bla

      You get the point, basically everything hard counters a cultist robe, and if your group has literally none of this cc then you've lost anyway regardless.
    • @OP, I've had a lot of fun reading this thread, so thanks for starting it! :)

      One obvious point comes to mind:

      As someone else alluded, nothing's stopping melee DPS from using cloth armor. At that, ranged DPS aren't locked into wearing all cloth, and leather armors can be very useful.

      In zvz, for example, these are the standard armors I see:

      Tank:

      Knight Helm
      Guardian Armor
      Hunter Shoes (leather!)

      DPS:

      Knight Helm (plate!)
      Cleric Robe
      Scholar Sandals

      Healer/support:

      Mercenary Hood (leather!)
      Cleric Robe
      Scholar Sandals

      The CC skill for Hunter Shoes, the movement defense skill for Knight Helm, and the Cleanse skill on Merc Hood are powerful. (As an aside, when I first started the game, I was disappointed that the Cleric Cowl didn't have Cleanse: it's something I associate with the Cleric class in general. :) )

      Other thoughts:

      The Specter Hood is one of the best artifact armors in the game. The Assassin Hood CD buff is incredibly useful in PvE. Guardian Helmets are a hard counter to DoT. The Hunter Jacket is for auto-attack builds (so it's a specialized DPS armor).

      Overall, there are many niches in the game that the armor pieces fill: ganking, scouting, PvE, zvz, 5v5, etc., and given the complexity of the system, I'm impressed with how well it works. :)
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      I think your biggest problem with understanding how DMG is dealt/mitigated is lack of spec. You have 10 mil PVE fame, correct? That is pretty low (especially if its split b/w multiple nodes), which probably means that everyone you hit - who has higher spec's gets a lot of DMG mitigation, and your low(er) spec's don't hit hard enough. Again - not trying to put you down, but trying to explain and help. Try focusing on 1 weapon and at least get everything to 70-70-70-70
      I'm 94 Spec in Broadsword (38 Artifact, 48 Dual, 2 Claymore) and 73 Spec in Dagger Pair (31 in 1H, 6 in Claw, 48 Artifact); so I've been focusing on weapons I really want to use. Problem is that it's way too easy to counter Dual Sword/Dagger Pair (as in completely negate the E), which are the two weapons I have the most fun with. I've even tried using Knight Helmet with them, but that cuts the damage down too low to be a viable pick for these weapons.

      Throatcutter wrote:

      I mean you keep bringing up cultist robe like it's amazing, first of all, it's actually quite rarely used outside of safe zones due to the stupid price.
      It's not expensive enough to be prohibitive except to new players and it's expensive to begin with because it's so powerful, literally game-breaking: it is the best armor in the game bar-none. And yes, a lot of things counter it, and most of those counters can be protected against by things like simply running away to use it. You're also ignoring that to use a majority of those skills, the armor completely absorbs the damage (like Broadsword E) which means you're going to lose the fight regardless because the enemy is just going to pump out way more damage than you. There are also plenty of builds in the game that won't have any form of interrupt, and that becomes an auto-lose scenerio in that instance. You bring up groups, but have you ever tried to fight in a 5v5 where 2-4 people have Cultist Robe? How do you CC all of them reliably? Especially when they're ranged attackers? Yes, you might think something along the lines of, "how do you not have any form of CC on you" but that's like saying, "how do you not have a purge" and, "how do you not have invincibility"; this is kind of a problem with Albion is that lots of builds require you to have high damage, good defensives, a heal, a purge, a CC, a movement skill, a cleanse etc. and you get spread out really thin. For clarification, a typical build you see most solo PVPers use is Guardian Helm/Mage Robe/ because that's a heal/cleanse/purge/armor steroid. Some of these counters I relied on in the past, like Demon Helm, but the CC changes made Demon Helm completely nonviable as it only silences for 1/4th the time it says it does in practice. Cultist Robe is one of the biggest problems in the game right now, and you can reliably 1vX with a Cultist/Specter Hood because you get two forms of physical immunity that also full heals everything and you just slap on insanely high DPS weapons that are reliable, all of which are ranged. One of my major points here is that Ranged uses it far more effectively just on the basis that they do more damage and they're ranged, which makes melee feel redundant, hence the entire point of this thread and the initial rant.

      Roccandil wrote:

      @OP, I've had a lot of fun reading this thread, so thanks for starting it! :)

      One obvious point comes to mind:

      As someone else alluded, nothing's stopping melee DPS from using cloth armor. At that, ranged DPS aren't locked into wearing all cloth, and leather armors can be very useful.

      In zvz, for example, these are the standard armors I see:

      Tank:

      Knight Helm
      Guardian Armor
      Hunter Shoes (leather!)

      DPS:

      Knight Helm (plate!)
      Cleric Robe
      Scholar Sandals

      Healer/support:

      Mercenary Hood (leather!)
      Cleric Robe
      Scholar Sandals

      The CC skill for Hunter Shoes, the movement defense skill for Knight Helm, and the Cleanse skill on Merc Hood are powerful. (As an aside, when I first started the game, I was disappointed that the Cleric Cowl didn't have Cleanse: it's something I associate with the Cleric class in general. :) )

      Other thoughts:

      The Specter Hood is one of the best artifact armors in the game. The Assassin Hood CD buff is incredibly useful in PvE. Guardian Helmets are a hard counter to DoT. The Hunter Jacket is for auto-attack builds (so it's a specialized DPS armor).

      Overall, there are many niches in the game that the armor pieces fill: ganking, scouting, PvE, zvz, 5v5, etc., and given the complexity of the system, I'm impressed with how well it works. :)
      I tried to clarify multiple times I was speaking specifically of Jackets and Armors (Leather and Plate chest pieces). Boots/Helms don't add much to your total stats so they're completely interchangeable, but Robes/Jackets/Armors can make or break your build. Swapping my helm doesn't give me a passive 58% damage increase, but Robes do. The problem is that:
      1) Robes give you the most damage, far above that of anything.
      2) They also give you the best abilities in the game.
      3) This pigeonholed most weapons that want to deal damage into using Robes for more damage/survival/utility.
      4) This gave Ranged attackers an inherent advantage as not only are they far safer and more reliable in dealing damage because they are ranged, but they also have a multitude of abilities in those Robes to out-right stop Melee from dealing damage.

      For Melee DPS, there's one jacket you can reliably use: Hellion Jacket, and it's practically only usable in small scale fights AND you have to pay attention to purges (especially mage robe, which will automatically strip it), and it's also ridiculously expensive nearing Cultist Robe costs. Armor wise you have Soldier armor, but the problem is that it's rarely effective enough to warrant using unless you're in a specialized group fight; in small scale or solo it is unusable unless your opponent is brain dead. If I want to deal damage, I can use the same robes; but you enter into a realm where if a crossbow user hits me once I'm practically dead instantly even with a Helm/Boot on and this is most likely before I've even hit them once. Leather Jackets should give you a mix of Defense/Damage but since their abilities are so trash it completely negates this and you basically still die as fast as a Cloth Robe with no utility and you just cut your damage by 25-30%. This leads to Ranged being more favorable in combat than melee damage, and melee damage being relegated to a support role at best: you don't need melee to win a fight (tanks are different, they don't do damage, they CC and debuff), but you absolutely must have ranged to succeed.
    • Acoustic wrote:

      I tried to clarify multiple times I was speaking specifically of Jackets and Armors (Leather and Plate chest pieces). Boots/Helms don't add much to your total stats so they're completely interchangeable, but Robes/Jackets/Armors can make or break your build. Swapping my helm doesn't give me a passive 58% damage increase, but Robes do. The problem is that:
      1) Robes give you the most damage, far above that of anything.
      2) They also give you the best abilities in the game.
      3) This pigeonholed most weapons that want to deal damage into using Robes for more damage/survival/utility.
      4) This gave Ranged attackers an inherent advantage as not only are they far safer and more reliable in dealing damage because they are ranged, but they also have a multitude of abilities in those Robes to out-right stop Melee from dealing damage.

      Robes are supposed to be the best for damage, with the best abilities for DPS, melee or ranged. If you want to DPS, yes, you should probably be wearing a robe, except for specialized builds.

      If robes were that unbalanced, even tanks would be wearing them, and they're not. They're wearing plate armor, like they're supposed to. :) (Are you arguing that plate armor should be viable for DPS?)

      To me, jackets look specialized:
      • Hunter being the obvious example, for boosting auto-attack builds, ranged or melee
      • Assassin for invisibility ganker builds
      • Mercenary for non-artifact self-healing, something cloth doesn't give you (the expensive relic Cultist robe aside), but which is a niche, since in most situations a healer is just better
      • Hellion for melee self-healing and DPS
      • Specter for melee suicide (sure, that one's a bit odd :) )
      • Stalker for raw melee DPS (if I did the math right, a potential 1088 added AoE damage for everything in melee range, not counting escalation!)
      • And I'm going to ignore the Royal/Avalonian, because I know nothing at all about them :P
      While the Mercenary could perhaps use a boost, they all seem to have their place, however narrow.

      In contrast, the robes are more generally useful, and also fit neatly into the following categories:
      • Scholar/Druid/Fiend are offensive
      • Cleric is a good mix of defense and offense
      • Mage/Cultist are defensive.
      Overall, the abilities of the robes seem more offensive than not. Not surprisingly, Cleric is what I usually see in zvz.

      If we're going to jump on the robes for having defensive abilities, I'll note that none of the robes give you a easy, self-activated DPS boost. Scholar and Druid require fast-casting over time to exploit, the Cleric requires getting damaged by an enemy at precisely the right time, and the Fiend isn't about DPS.
    • Roccandil wrote:

      Robes are supposed to be the best for damage, with the best abilities for DPS, melee or ranged. If you want to DPS, yes, you should probably be wearing a robe, except for specialized builds.
      So a crossbow puts on a robe and oneshots a sword wearing a robe before the sword even gets close enough to attack. The sword puts on Leather to try to get a mix of defense and attack, gets taken down to 90% of their health instead of instadead, and then hits like a wet noodle with no ability that is a threat to the oppoonent. They then try plate, they get taken down to 75% of their health, and the crossbow stands there laughing as they kill them as soon as their 10 second cooldowns are back up because the sword no longer is a threat. That's the problem. Oh, the Robe user is suddenly getting hit? Let's knock them back, fully heal while making their attacks ineffective, go invincible and get an even greater damage boost, purge everything they possibly buff themselves with while also suddenly changing to plate-armor levels of defense... seriously, do you not see the problem here? You can't deal damage as a Melee, because the second you throw on a robe and go against a ranged using a robe they are going to absolutely destroy you because you're dealing zero damage, they're dealing high damage because they're ranged plus the robe buffed that another 50+%, and their defense does not matter because, again: they are ranged. You also can't run from them for the same reason, and you have to blow skills that deal no damage to get a chance to deal damage and it's not like a Broadsword does triple the damage a Crossbow does to make up for it. The only time melee does anything is as a support in group fights, and please don't cherry pick the couple of builds that can abuse CC and demon cape to get a single kill every 2 minutes that's entirely preventable with a multitude of items or the even smaller list of builds like 1H Spear/Dagger Pair that could potentially win a fight if everything goes their way (Spear being forced into Robes but has massive movement speed buffs and daggers potentially able to use things like Assassin Jacket because they have the option to build up stacks passively).

      Roccandil wrote:

      If robes were that unbalanced, even tanks would be wearing them, and they're not. They're wearing plate armor, like they're supposed to. (Are you arguing that plate armor should be viable for DPS?)
      No I'm arguing there should be something in-between and there isn't because Leather isn't viable for most of the content in the game.

      Roccandil wrote:

      Hunter being the obvious example, for boosting auto-attack builds, ranged or melee
      Nobody uses this except bows and they learned not to use it because they hit the attack speed cap without it. Melee cannot do auto attacks in this game because when you're moving, you're not attacking, and you need to move to deal damage and unless you're bad at playing the game you would realize that you can simply walk away and prevent most of the damage a melee auto attacker can do. Apparently spears can use this, but spears have a similar problem like Daggers in that they're only good for Ganking and even then they aren't even the best at it.

      Roccandil wrote:

      Assassin for invisibility ganker builds
      Yes, which is one thing, and even then only a few weapons can use it and it's actually mostly used for diving builds because it wipes threat off you and causes monsters to attack the opponents instead. It's entirely situational and useless in anything that's not surprise ganking, and even then only a few weapons can use it effectively because most melee has to generate stacks. A niche item at best, and it's rarely used.

      Roccandil wrote:

      Mercenary for non-artifact self-healing, something cloth doesn't give you (the expensive relic Cultist robe aside), but which is a niche, since in most situations a healer is just better
      And also doesn't work well for most melee attackers in the game (melee auto attacking is broken to the point where most of the time it doesn't work, we've talked about this), and VASTLY powers up ranged attackers; this is the only leather in the game that's actually somewhat useful and it arguably helps Fire/Curse/Bows/Crossbows more than Swords/Daggers/Spears, and Axes are honestly the only thing that really gets a kick out of it because of the bleed effect. Even then, you call it a niche.

      Roccandil wrote:

      Specter for melee suicide (sure, that one's a bit odd )
      It's not even good for PVP and while it can be used in PVE, Stalker and Hellion do the same thing essentially: AOE damage around you.

      Roccandil wrote:

      Stalker for raw melee DPS (if I did the math right, a potential 1088 added AoE damage for everything in melee range, not counting escalation!)
      1) The damage is pitiful because of resistances so you automatically have to halve the damage it does right off the bat and makes it ignorably useles
      2) The range is absurdly small, and not only are you rarely going to even deal damage with it (it's countered by literally walking away from you), you're never going to hit multiple targets unless the opponents are stupid... or melee. Remember ranged can be spread out entirely in fights which is what makes them desirable for team battles while melee has to bunch together to do anything.
      3) Purgable, and Mage Robe is a top tier meta item right now that instantly counters it.
      4) Nobody uses this except for PVE to raise Artifact Leather.

      The only leather that's technically usable is Hellion, and it's worthless 1v1. In Group Fights it's pretty decent, but still easy to purge by one person being hit by it toggling mage robe (which purges not only Hellion but any other buff that person may have had) or simply getting away/spreading out. You need to hit 3+ people with Hellion for it to be effective at all, otherwise anything else would have done more damage or healed you far better (like Merc Jacket is a straight-up upgrade for 1v1, but if you're using Curse/Fire/Bow/Crossbow it's busted because you'll heal that 15 attacks in under 3 seconds).

      Now compare that to how useful Robes are. Yeah. Plate isn't an option for damage, Leather is practically worthless, and everybody is shoved into using Robes which Ranged excels at killing. Good design SBI. You also have to keep in mind that when you put Melee vs Ranged in the same armor, there are multiple abilities in the game that completely prevent Melee from doing it's damage, while anything that would prevent Ranged from doing Damage also prevents Melee from doing the same, there is no option that exclusively harms Ranged and leads to even more disparity between them.

      On a similar note, have you ever realize how absolutely screwed you are into fighting Ranged? You try to get close, they pump damage into you, and before you can realize maybe this fight isn't worth doing it's too late because they get a bunch more free damage and can chase you down if you try to flee. Melee, on the other hand, is shut down by simply kiting them until your CDs are up and using that to turn the fight, something you cannot do as a Melee against a Ranged attacker.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Acoustic ().

    • So while I continue to not agreeing with everything that @Acoustic says (he overdramatisizes a bit), but he gets a like - because I agree more with what he is saying (as a percieved "newbie") vs what @Roccandil is saying.

      Roccandil wrote:

      (Are you arguing that plate armor should be viable for DPS?)
      No, but I will argue that Plate should be able to clear with the same speed as cloth/leather - because DMG mitigation should make up for the time spend hitting things with no DMG bonus. Cloth and leather should have downtime due to taking more damage (much more on cloth - which currently is not happening).
      And yes - I can clear t6 SOLO dungeon floor in 3 minutes (avg) on all 3: Cloth, Leather and Plate. But it gets worse once you get into higher tiers (t7 and t8) where Im really struggling in leather (as a 350/400 leather/cloth/plate), while swapping to cloth today - made t7s a breeze. That seems unbalanced?

      Roccandil wrote:

      If robes were that unbalanced, even tanks would be wearing them, and they're not.
      No need to jump into complete opposite binary straw man arguments. And indeed "some" tanks that are built for DPS (does that even make sense?) do wear cloth. You can't say "a tank is wearing cloth" as the type of chest-piece determines whether its a DPS or tank or "something-in-between-cough-cough-leather". A person with a Gorvekeeper and a cloth robe = a DPS. A curse staff in plate = tank. The armor determines the "labeling".

      Roccandil wrote:

      Hunter being the obvious example, for boosting auto-attack builds, ranged or melee
      And ironically all auto attack builds would rather wear cloth. Spears and even Bows (regular bows) benefit more from cloth. Hell, Untitled ran Claws in cloth and got insane amount of kills (most were one/two shots)

      Roccandil wrote:

      Specter for melee suicide (sure, that one's a bit odd )
      Specter needs armor buff when active. All builds (except 1) with it are useless (there is a better alternative in cloth). The only "for the lulz" troll build with Specter - is another black sheep item - Staff of Balance. Otherwise, its pretty useless, unless it gets a resistance buff (so many Specter users died in PVE when running group dungeons, I hate healing when those ppl are in my party)

      Roccandil wrote:

      Stalker for raw melee DPS (if I did the math right, a potential 1088 added AoE damage for everything in melee range, not counting escalation!)
      Except the issue is that item never gets used in any kind of content where AOE escalation makes a difference (TLDR: its not part of any ZvZ meta builds). Its mediocre at best in 5v5, and would only get 30% AOE escalation bous in the best case scenario when all 5 enemies are being hit (highly unlikely). Aside from full stun/CC Quarterstaff builds - the Stalker armor is pretty lack luster.

      Roccandil wrote:

      While the Mercenary could perhaps use a boost, they all seem to have their place, however narrow.
      Merc needs ability to heal from Poisons added back (un-nerfed) - which was a bandaid solution anyway, thrown in when Guardian Helmet (DOT removal) did not exist in the game. Plus the Bloodletter got nerfed too, cant kite like you used to anymore. (Bloodletter - Merc jacket - Poison kite was the reason this got nerfed)

      Roccandil wrote:

      In contrast, the robes are more generally useful, and also fit neatly into the following categories:


      Scholar/Druid/Fiend are offensive

      Cleric is a good mix of defense and offense

      Mage/Cultist are defensive.
      "Neatly" putting random arbitrary labels on items which has nothing to do with how they are using in the game - does nothing to provide constructive factual reflection of the real situation. Cleric is offensive in ZvZ and even 1v1 for example (I summon @Tabor and his Cleric Robe solo PVP Curse builds). Mage/Cultist Robes are "defensive" sure... with a 58% DMG bonus. Great defensives... more like "best of both worlds".

      Roccandil wrote:

      Overall, the abilities of the robes seem more offensive than not. Not surprisingly, Cleric is what I usually see in zvz.
      yes - you see cleric, because its the easiest 30% DMG bonus that you can get a) instantly and b) guaranteed (in a ZvZ setting when there is literally damage flying everywhere). Cleric is used on DPS ("bomb") builds - because its the easiest item to stack damage for that type of content (ZvZ). It "can" also be used in solo for a DPS boost - but then it only gets the a) instant part, not guaranteed tho, but if the enemy is braindead or uses any kind of a DOT build (axe or curse or fire) the cleric 30% DMG boost is also guaranteed.

      Roccandil wrote:

      I'll note that none of the robes give you a easy, self-activated DPS boost. Scholar and Druid require fast-casting over time to exploit, the Cleric requires getting damaged by an enemy at precisely the right time,
      LoL?
      1) Scholar gives an insane DMG boost to set-ups that are built around slow but high DMG castable attacks. (think Frost with Ice Shard or any Holy with Smite)
      2) Druid can be stacked on your own schedule - in safety, so you only need to stack 7 abilities - which is easy. Have you not heard of one-shot-pike? (Prevalent in 2v2 HG but also in OW)
      3) "Cleric requires getting damaged by an enemy at precisely the right time" - if by precisely the right time you mean being engaged any any kind of combat. Sure. More so - if you any kind of DOT on you. You just faceroll your keyboard at that point.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Captainrussia ().