Lymhurst Fiber Refining Bonus

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    • I've also raised it here. It does not average out over time, it is an error in the update.

      Queen - Known Issues List [Updated 20.01 19:10 UTC]

      ISSUE - REFINING
      The Patch notes said that the specialist refine rate for each Royal City would increase from 35% to 40%.

      However the rate has only increased to 36.7%. Rather than an additional 5% added to the original 35%, the increase of 1.7 is actually 5% of 35.
    • broicious wrote:

      I've also raised it here. It does not average out over time, it is an error in the update.

      Queen - Known Issues List [Updated 20.01 19:10 UTC]

      ISSUE - REFINING
      The Patch notes said that the specialist refine rate for each Royal City would increase from 35% to 40%.

      However the rate has only increased to 36.7%. Rather than an additional 5% added to the original 35%, the increase of 1.7 is actually 5% of 35.
      Thank you, the crafting bonuses are off as well, some odd numbers popping out here and there.
    • 100/158 = 0,6329

      This means there is a reduction in cost of 36.7%


      Also, if you progressively refine, the return rate ends in 58%


      Example of sequence refining:

      100 resources refined = 36 or 37 resources returned

      37 resources refined = 14 resources returned (51 total)

      14 resources refined = 5 resources returned (56 total)

      5 resources refined = 2 resources returned (58 total, TADAAAAM)

      So, in the end, you made 158 resources instead of 100 with 36,7% return per refinement, which proves that it's a 58% increase in return rate.



      This is how it is made.
    • ImaDoki wrote:

      100/158 = 0,6329

      This means there is a reduction in cost of 36.7%


      Also, if you progressively refine, the return rate ends in 58%


      Example of sequence refining:

      100 resources refined = 36 or 37 resources returned

      37 resources refined = 14 resources returned (51 total)

      14 resources refined = 5 resources returned (56 total)

      5 resources refined = 2 resources returned (58 total, TADAAAAM)

      So, in the end, you made 158 resources instead of 100 with 36,7% return per refinement, which proves that it's a 58% increase in return rate.



      This is how it is made.
      There is an error in the way it is being calculated as the rate of return does NOT depend on the quantity refined.

      In the Queen Update notes it was clearly said that the Rate of Return for refining would increase from 35% to 40%.

      REFINING (Without Focus, in the resource's Specialist City)
      That means using your example of 100 resources...
      100 resources refined = 40 resources returned, assuming focus is NOT used.
      The rest of the process continues on from that.

      The confusion you have applied is that previously when adding focus to the specialist city's 35% ROR would result in 53% ROR.

      Following the Queen update this should increase to 58% ROR.


      REFINING (WITH Focus, in the resource's Specialist City)
      Continuing to use your example of 100 resources...
      100 resources refined = 58 resources returned, assuming focus IS used.
      The rest of the process continues on from that.
    • broicious wrote:

      ImaDoki wrote:

      100/158 = 0,6329

      This means there is a reduction in cost of 36.7%


      Also, if you progressively refine, the return rate ends in 58%


      Example of sequence refining:

      100 resources refined = 36 or 37 resources returned

      37 resources refined = 14 resources returned (51 total)

      14 resources refined = 5 resources returned (56 total)

      5 resources refined = 2 resources returned (58 total, TADAAAAM)

      So, in the end, you made 158 resources instead of 100 with 36,7% return per refinement, which proves that it's a 58% increase in return rate.



      This is how it is made.
      There is an error in the way it is being calculated as the rate of return does NOT depend on the quantity refined.
      In the Queen Update notes it was clearly said that the Rate of Return for refining would increase from 35% to 40%.

      REFINING (Without Focus, in the resource's Specialist City)
      That means using your example of 100 resources...
      100 resources refined = 40 resources returned, assuming focus is NOT used.
      The rest of the process continues on from that.

      The confusion you have applied is that previously when adding focus to the specialist city's 35% ROR would result in 53% ROR.

      Following the Queen update this should increase to 58% ROR.


      REFINING (WITH Focus, in the resource's Specialist City)
      Continuing to use your example of 100 resources...
      100 resources refined = 58 resources returned, assuming focus IS used.
      The rest of the process continues on from that.
      Focus increase return rate by 59%, independently of where.

      So, in your example...

      It was 100/158 = 0,6269. Which means 36,7%

      Adding 59%

      100/217 = 0,46... which means 54%


      Is 54% the number that is showing when you try to refine with focus? If yes, working as intended.

      As opposed to what most people say. using focus and extra return rate DOESNT provide diminishing returns. It provides the exact same bonus no matter what.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ImaDoki ().

    • Taken from the Queen Update Notes
      City Crafting Bonus Changes
      • Improved display of city crafting bonuses
      • Increased city-specific refining bonuses of Royal Cities and their islands from 35% to 40%



      When you craft you do not get the 40% City Specialist refine rate, you get 36.7%
      You should get 40 of the original returned. Its really not that hard.
    • broicious wrote:

      Taken from the Queen Update Notes
      City Crafting Bonus Changes
      • Improved display of city crafting bonuses
      • Increased city-specific refining bonuses of Royal Cities and their islands from 35% to 40%



      When you craft you do not get the 40% City Specialist refine rate, you get 36.7%
      You should get 40 of the original returned. Its really not that hard.
      A refining bonus is not the same thing as resource return rate. It's listed the same way as it was before queen, and people didn't understand it then either. Production bonuses ARE NOT the same thing as resource return rates.

      ImaDoki explained how it effectively works. The UI is an improvement, but it still requires people to understand things that they aren't likely to, in order to use the information.

      The most important things to understand is that the "refining bonus" is the compounded rate of resource return,

      For example, the basic town bonus is 18%. At the stations you receive 15.25%? resource return rate on crafting without city specific bonuses.

      So, you craft 100 Metal Bars and you get back the resources to craft an additional 15.25 Metal Bars. Then you craft those 15.25 Metal Bars and get back enough resources to craft an additional 2.325 Metal Bars...etc etc

      So, 15.25 + 2.325 + .354 + .054 + .008 = 17.991 ~~ 18 without round errors, this is the "Crafting Bonus" amount.

      As ImaDoki also explained, if you want to know what the RRR is at the station, all you have to do is divide 100 by the number in the parenthesis, and then subtract that number from 1.

      So, 100/158 (for that cities refining bonus gets you) gets you .6329 and the RRR is (1-.6329) or .367, 36.7% RRR.

      For basic crafts it would be 1-(100/118), or 15.25%
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • Well if my memory is correct we were getting 35% resource return rate on the weaver at Lymhurst without focus, and with focus it was 53% before Queen. So when it is specified as "Increased city-specific refining bonuses of Royal Cities and their islands from 35% to 40%" . 40% return rate is expected. So initially it is hard to think as compounded refining bonus as we had the same base 35%.
    • Pherolie wrote:

      Well if my memory is correct we were getting 35% resource return rate on the weaver at Lymhurst without focus, and with focus it was 53% before Queen. So when it is specified as "Increased city-specific refining bonuses of Royal Cities and their islands from 35% to 40%" . 40% return rate is expected. So initially it is hard to think as compounded refining bonus as we had the same base 35%.
      Exactly. previously it clearly said 35% when you clicked on the resource to refine. And after refining 100 units of the resource you received 35 back. Then you refined that, to bring in the compound effect.


      Right now the smelters say 36.7% and not 40%. The patch said 35% would increase to 40%. Simple.
    • broicious wrote:

      Exactly. previously it clearly said 35% when you clicked on the resource to refine. And after refining 100 units of the resource you received 35 back. Then you refined that, to bring in the compound effect.
      I think this specifically was the thing that made all of this confusing. It was completely coincidental that the 35% bonus to refining added to the bonus from being in a city zone caused the RRR to be 35%. Even though at the same time that methodology didn't work for the crafting bonuses (It was listed as 15%, but you got 25%? RRR).

      IMO the only thing listed in the UI should have been that zones actual RRR with and without focus, but the developers tried to be a little fancy and here we are. I expect that they were designing it in such a way that, should they make changes to how things work in the future, things would be sort of future proofed.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • the 35% return rate bonus showing 35% on refining resources before Queen is also explained by the same math.

      As Piddle said, it was just a coincidence...

      Base return rate = 18%

      With the +35%... we have +53%

      Which means

      100/153 = 0,65... or 35%.




      Gear crafting was.

      Base 18% + 15% = 33%..

      So

      100/133 = 0,75... or 25%.



      That coincidence just made it even harder for people to understand.
    • Piddle wrote:

      broicious wrote:

      Exactly. previously it clearly said 35% when you clicked on the resource to refine. And after refining 100 units of the resource you received 35 back. Then you refined that, to bring in the compound effect.
      I think this specifically was the thing that made all of this confusing. It was completely coincidental that the 35% bonus to refining added to the bonus from being in a city zone caused the RRR to be 35%. Even though at the same time that methodology didn't work for the crafting bonuses (It was listed as 15%, but you got 25%? RRR).
      IMO the only thing listed in the UI should have been that zones actual RRR with and without focus, but the developers tried to be a little fancy and here we are. I expect that they were designing it in such a way that, should they make changes to how things work in the future, things would be sort of future proofed.
      pre-queen the crafting bonus of specific items were 25% and others 15% (i.e. swords/bows in Lym)
      anyway, if it is not a bug and it's intentional I find it quite stupid that they can't make a clear UI with bonuses with or without focus, it is so simple.
    • fballarino wrote:

      Piddle wrote:

      broicious wrote:

      Exactly. previously it clearly said 35% when you clicked on the resource to refine. And after refining 100 units of the resource you received 35 back. Then you refined that, to bring in the compound effect.
      I think this specifically was the thing that made all of this confusing. It was completely coincidental that the 35% bonus to refining added to the bonus from being in a city zone caused the RRR to be 35%. Even though at the same time that methodology didn't work for the crafting bonuses (It was listed as 15%, but you got 25%? RRR).IMO the only thing listed in the UI should have been that zones actual RRR with and without focus, but the developers tried to be a little fancy and here we are. I expect that they were designing it in such a way that, should they make changes to how things work in the future, things would be sort of future proofed.
      pre-queen the crafting bonus of specific items were 25% and others 15% (i.e. swords/bows in Lym)anyway, if it is not a bug and it's intentional I find it quite stupid that they can't make a clear UI with bonuses with or without focus, it is so simple.
      The problem is that this math is based on the fact that you can 'refine' until you are out of mats.

      You can think that the overall bonus is what is written in the cluster bonus.

      So if you have 18% + 40% you have 58% extra.

      If you take material to get 100 refined resources you will leave, after consecutive refininigs until out of mats, ~158 resources. And that is it.



      Always take into consideration that using focus raise return rate by 59%.

      so... 58+59% = extra 117%.


      If you bring the same mats for 100 refined resources you should leave with ~217 refined resources.


      It is a little tricky, in the end...



      One way to think about it is: If the number you see there is 53% return rate you will spend 53% less resources to get the same benefit.

      So... if you plan is to get 100 refined resources, you can bring material to ~50 and you will leave with 100 refined ones.
    • ImaDoki wrote:

      100/158 = 0,6329

      This means there is a reduction in cost of 36.7%


      Also, if you progressively refine, the return rate ends in 58%


      Example of sequence refining:

      100 resources refined = 36 or 37 resources returned

      37 resources refined = 14 resources returned (51 total)

      14 resources refined = 5 resources returned (56 total)

      5 resources refined = 2 resources returned (58 total, TADAAAAM)

      So, in the end, you made 158 resources instead of 100 with 36,7% return per refinement, which proves that it's a 58% increase in return rate.



      This is how it is made.
    • Piddle wrote:

      broicious wrote:

      Taken from the Queen Update Notes
      City Crafting Bonus Changes
      • Improved display of city crafting bonuses
      • Increased city-specific refining bonuses of Royal Cities and their islands from 35% to 40%



      When you craft you do not get the 40% City Specialist refine rate, you get 36.7%
      You should get 40 of the original returned. Its really not that hard.
      A refining bonus is not the same thing as resource return rate. It's listed the same way as it was before queen, and people didn't understand it then either. Production bonuses ARE NOT the same thing as resource return rates.
      ImaDoki explained how it effectively works. The UI is an improvement, but it still requires people to understand things that they aren't likely to, in order to use the information.

      The most important things to understand is that the "refining bonus" is the compounded rate of resource return,

      For example, the basic town bonus is 18%. At the stations you receive 15.25%? resource return rate on crafting without city specific bonuses.

      So, you craft 100 Metal Bars and you get back the resources to craft an additional 15.25 Metal Bars. Then you craft those 15.25 Metal Bars and get back enough resources to craft an additional 2.325 Metal Bars...etc etc

      So, 15.25 + 2.325 + .354 + .054 + .008 = 17.991 ~~ 18 without round errors, this is the "Crafting Bonus" amount.

      As ImaDoki also explained, if you want to know what the RRR is at the station, all you have to do is divide 100 by the number in the parenthesis, and then subtract that number from 1.

      So, 100/158 (for that cities refining bonus gets you) gets you .6329 and the RRR is (1-.6329) or .367, 36.7% RRR.

      For basic crafts it would be 1-(100/118), or 15.25%
      Ok, guys. Your position is understandable.
      But explain to me that what. Before queen i got refines stone with 35% return. And get 350 stones from 1000 (53% with focus i got ~530 stones from 1000). Right after the FIRST and single refinement.
      This value is correct and it is indicated as modified in the patch description. 35% -> 40% right? But if it is exacly the same valve - why we should count it different way now?

      So depend on this:



      Increased city-specific refining bonuses of Royal Cities and their islands from 35% to 40%
      This clearly means that if you see “35%” on the building, you should now see 40% in the same place. As clearly stated, 35% - changed by 40%, and we know where we saw these 35%.

      I think that players cannot understand just that. I don’t understand this either.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by iRawr ().

    • This isn't a place to "side with" and is not about opinion.
      It's simple math.

      Piddle already explained how the math works. The 35% was coincidental since thebase value (18%) plus the old bonus (35%) ended up in an initial value of 35% resource return rate.

      Raising the bonus to 40% meant the new resource return rate would be 36,7%. Just read Piddle's post and stop arguing. Its math. If you can't understand it stop trying to force it.