Whispering bow vs Bow

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    • Whispering bow vs Bow

      Just shedding some further light onto this

      Whispering bow is overall much weaker in terms of damage compared to a regular bow

      What whispering bow has for its E

      Extra 35% Bonus range to auto attacks ( skills are not affected so speed shot does not get any bonus from this which makes it not so viable to pair with it, explosive shots do take advantage of this though as it's a buff and auto-attacks are the main delivery tool to allow this skill to be fully utilized)

      Deals an additional X - (Base is around 120 at Tier 4) magic damage per shot which is also delayed by a split second or so.


      Pros:
      -Amazing range and zero wind-up burst, paired with Hunter Jacket "R" allows for a 60% increased attack speed and about 25% base + 20% extra damage totalling upto 45% bonus damage during the duration of its burst, dwindling down to a mere 25% - Super quick burst damage that's easily countered by a single cleric cowl defensive or a mage robe Purge. Royal jacket is also an expensive wonderful option as it reduces CD by 50% and increases attack speed by 30% allowing you to use your W and E much faster
      (These bonus damage numbers do not include a beef stew)

      Cons:
      -Downtime, once the burst abilities are down Explosive shot, Undead arrows and Haste, your damage is basically trash other than deadly shot or a stacked poison arrow (downtime can be significantly reduced by using assassin's hood for the Meditation ability however, you miss out on other wonderful options for headgear)
      -No resistance reduction - which means damage is easily mitigated by leather and plate wearers - would still deal decent dps to cloths as it should although easily countered by mage robe purge as stated above.
      -You become a dps turret, not designed for mobile fights however, the extra range can allow you to get a few hits in with fast attack speed before the target runs out of your range.

      Overall comment: The dps output is trash for the amount of CDs you have to burn in order to achieve it.

      What regular bow has for its E
      For 18 shots:
      Extra 35% normal attack damage (stackable upto 6 times) which is about 210% total attack damage increase - stacking this upto 6 times would mean deducting 6 shots to stack it up - also considered the wind-up time until max dps is reached
      Resistance reduction - 39 on tier 4 - with spec or higher tier reaches upto 45+ resistance reduction allowing for FURTHER damage increase

      Extra 15% attack speed bonus (stackable upto 6 times) which is about a whopping 90% attack speed increase - totally the perfect combo with its damage increase, with attack speed passive, you can reach upto 2.9/3 attacks per second, with an average of 120-150 damage and way more upto 200 on a cloth target which is amazing for sustained dps.

      Pros:
      -Healer slaying potential
      -Amazing sustained overall dps
      -Once you complete the wind-up time you become an LMG (light machine gun)

      Cons:
      -Wind-up time can be inconvenient which could be a deal breaker for quick burst fights,
      -Can easily be kited by a highly mobile build e.g blood letter / spear
      -You become a dps turret, the complete opposite of a Warbow, not designed to take on high mobility fights


      Overall comment: The dps output is well worth it with the downside of having a wind-up time which can be a deal-breaker for most fights


      PVP and PVE-wise Bow outperforms whispering bow which is quite unfortunate being an artifact weapon and all.

      Bow is great, I have nothing against the regular bow, it's truly amazing in the right hands

      Whispering bow needs a buff or a rework (if SBI devs can see this post then I have a suggestion)

      Rework suggestion:

      Diving deep into the mechanics in this game
      -Auto-attacks require the attacker to stop in order to deal damage so I would advise against following through with "Buffing" the character to deal more damage - Regular bow already has this down, let's try to be better than that

      New skill name: Death's Whisper
      Range: 20m
      Type of ability: Single target magical

      Possessed by death for a short amount of time, channels the power of the undead to deal 296 magical damage per hit for up-to 5 hits. Against players, deals an additional 2% of their maximum health as damage per hit
      Note: numerical values are based on gear with 1060 Item Power.

      TL;DR - Basically a single-target version of the siege-bow with a shorter cooldown of 15 seconds and the speed of channel being that of the Crossbow tree's Q / autofire

      In the defense that people might claim it to be "OP" due to its range and cooldown:

      -It's an ARTIFACT weapon, it SHOULD be strong and, there are numerous defensives already in the game that can easily counter this the following of which can be great:
      -Resistance increasing defensives to mitigate damage - Scholar cowl, Resistance potion, Stoneskin and more...
      -Damage nullifying defensives - Iceblock, Block, Everlasting Spirit (cleric cowl R)
      -Damage reflecting defensives - Hunter hood retaliate etc...

      Note: Everything in the game has its counter, this one too, so I don't believe it to be "OP"


      This is also not a biased comment, I would just want to advocate more diversity in builds and not see the "same" build because it's "meta" and outperforms most builds in the current updates.

      I am advocating for strengthening diverse builds that are least used in the game. So that it will all be a matter of "how" you play the build to counter each other instead of running a counter build for the "meta" build which kind of sucks tbh. You can't always have "your" way in every engagement you get placed in so you can't claim that it's always on who plays it or how you play it. In this game, no matter how "skilled" you are mechanically, if you're low spec and you're facing a max spec player in PvP, you can't win, you'll die and you'll die real fast. I'm hoping they find new ways to increase the skill-ceiling in this game by altering or modifying current mechanics in the game for better gameplay.


      e.g of some comparably really amazing artifact builds
      -a maxed out 100/100 brimstone can 1 shot clap a whole clump of people when properly setup
      (although it has a cast time it can be reduced with Speed caster scholar robe R and has a short delay before hitting, hence I did say that it takes a good amount of preparation to properly setup)
      -the same goes for a capped permafrost, huge burst for AoE, fast cast, fast claps, decent range
      -Whispering Bow E dps should also be comparable to Boltcasters' E
      -This rewards the hard-earned grind that makes artifacts worth it for this kind of setup (it's not an easy task to max out artifact specialization)
    • Wait you're proposing to make whispering working the exact same way as siegebow but single target? I can say for sure that your proposition makes a worst version of the actual one.


      The thing that makes whispering bow bad, same for normal bow (yes i've said it normal bow is thrash too, it only get's his ass saved by smokescreen+AS steroid gimmick), same for every auto-attack based build, is the horrible standtime on auto-attacks. I've tested it and you have a 0.4 standtime regardless of your attack speed (24 frames standtime per sec in 60fps or 12 frames in 30 fps). This is still beareable when you don't use AS buffs but when you come close to the 2.0 AS you are basically immobile (because of the standtime).

      This is the simple reason why you will never see an auto-base build performing better than a Frost staff, Crossbow, Curse, etc... you want to be a machine gun turret? Take frost staff with spamable Q aoe that hit's like a truck, you want good mobility/low standtime weapon with good damage? Take crossbow or curse staff. In the end in both situation you will be outshined if you take an auto-based build.

      Whispering doesn't really need a change by itself (the only thing i would like to see is the undead arrow projectile to be use as the main projectile during the buff.

      What it need to be done is :
      - Putting an adaptative standtime on auto-attacks based on the total Attack speed of your weapon. Example you begin with a standtime of 0.3 with 1.0 AS (18 frames standtime in 60FPS) get 2.0 AS and you will get 0.15 standtime (9 frames in 60 fps) / get 3.0 AS you will get 0.1 standtime (6 frames in 60 fps) / 0.66 AS will puts you at 0.45 standtime (27 frame in 60fps) / etc etc...
      - Swaping explosive shot with multishot thus it will be a Q spell (allowing TRUE auto-attack build for bows). It will need some consequent changes as the amount of stack, cd, damage, etc to be in line with the rest of the others Q's.
      - Adding new W spell to be on line and in synergy with normal and whisper bow

      /!\ With the adaptative standtime. Enchanted quiver will need some serious tweak numbers, toning down or completely remove the AS steoid

      With thoses change and most importantly the adaptative standtime whipering will be amazing with AS steroid (actually having good damage in ration of the mobility) and overall auto-based builds will be actually good with AS speed steroid.


      Don't ask this weapon to be a worst version of the siegebow pls. Ask to ease up the world for auto-based builds.

      Regards, one of the main users of whispering bow.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Owlsane ().

    • Owlsane wrote:

      Wait you're proposing to make whispering working the exact same way as siegebow but single target? I can say for sure that your proposition makes a worst version of the actual one.


      The thing that makes whispering bow bad, same for normal bow (yes i've said it normal bow is thrash too, it only get's his ass saved by smokescreen+AS steroid gimmick), same for every auto-attack based build, is the horrible standtime on auto-attacks. I've tested it and you have a 0.4 standtime regardless of your attack speed (24 frames standtime per sec in 60fps or 12 frames in 30 fps). This is still beareable when you don't use AS buffs but when you come close to the 2.0 AS you are basically immobile (because of the standtime).

      This is the simple reason why you will never see an auto-base build performing better than a Frost staff, Crossbow, Curse, etc... you want to be a machine gun turret? Take frost staff with spamable Q aoe that hit's like a truck, you want good mobility/low standtime weapon with good damage? Take crossbow or curse staff. In the end in both situation you will be outshined if you take an auto-based build.

      Whispering doesn't really need a change by itself (the only thing i would like to see is the undead arrow projectile to be use as the main projectile during the buff.

      What it need to be done is :
      - Putting an adaptative standtime on auto-attacks based on the total Attack speed of your weapon. Example you begin with a standtime of 0.3 with 1.0 AS (18 frames standtime in 60FPS) get 2.0 AS and you will get 0.15 standtime (9 frames in 60 fps) / get 3.0 AS you will get 0.1 standtime (6 frames in 60 fps) / 0.66 AS will puts you at 0.45 standtime (27 frame in 60fps) / etc etc...
      - Swaping explosive shot with multishot thus it will be a Q spell (allowing TRUE auto-attack build for bows). It will need some consequent changes as the amount of stack, cd, damage, etc to be in line with the rest of the others Q's.
      - Adding new W spell to be on line and in synergy with normal and whisper bow

      /!\ With the adaptative standtime. Enchanted quiver will need some serious tweak numbers, toning down or completely remove the AS steoid

      With thoses change and most importantly the adaptative standtime whipering will be amazing with AS steroid (actually having good damage in ration of the mobility) and overall auto-based builds will be actually good with AS speed steroid.


      Don't ask this weapon to be a worst version of the siegebow pls. Ask to ease up the world for auto-based builds.

      Regards, one of the main users of whispering bow.
      I understand your perspective, standtimes. Your point is the entirety of both Bow and Whispering bow requires quite an amount of standtime in order to deal damage which makes the build immobile and kinda crappy.

      I only wanted to try deviating from "auto-based" type of builds because of the specific issue you are referring to which is "stand-time".

      And whispering bow's damage compared to regular bow is much weaker since Bow has AS buff - Damage buff and Resistance reduction - the perfect dps blend

      Also, attack move slows down your dps, standing still while shooting at 2+ attacks / s does so much more than trying to kite/chase while shooting something that will catch up by running upto you in less than 3 seconds.

      Hence the Single-target E, it's not going to be as bad as you think because Siegebow is an AOE weapon, we already have Badon, Longbow and Wailing for the aoe claps. Whispering is a single target damage weapon that has shitty dps which requires a ton of sacrifices in order to dish out proper damage. Given it being a 15 second cooldown and a massive range, it can be a great artifact weapon for poking situations or long-range engagements that can apply pressure depending on how it's used. Relying on long-ranged auto-attacks that deal tooth-pick damage over the course of 8 seconds is a really underwhelming mechanic even if you manage to cap yourself at 3 attacks per second. Don't forget that Bow has resistance reduction while Whispering does not.

      If the case was as such and they would make it so that you are "able" to do auto-attacks "while" moving but perhaps at a slightly slower speed than normal, that wouldn't be such a bad idea either.

      Another good bandage solution would be to have a movement slowing effect for Whispering bow's E allowing the user to utilize an attack-move kiting kind of playstyle (not similar to warbow's out of range / you will never catch me skill-shot playstyle )


      How about:
      *Add a 50% attack-speed buff to Whispering Bow and a 50% movement slowing effect that lasts for 1.5 seconds upon every undead arrow that hits target and change undead arrow duration from 8 to 10 seconds
      (slowing effect debuff can be purged or negated by abilities that make user immune to slows e.g Scholar sandals)

      - I've not a clear idea of how your stand-time adjustment point would work though, do you have a much easier-to-understand example?
    • Would also want to point out the downtime for Whispering bow paired with Hunter Jacket's R (which is a 30-second cooldown) the 10-second downtime a huge factor in fights that can take less than 5 seconds to finish. Burst is extremely easy to counter and purge.

      Do you have a decent whispering build that you can share (that can perform very well where you believe it can?) Please do share

      Thank you
    • Zyrex wrote:

      - I've not a clear idea of how your stand-time adjustment point would work though, do you have a much easier-to-understand example?

      So here some numbers to understand :

      Base movement speed => 5.5 m/s
      Standtime basically tells that you're at 0 m/s

      When you have 1.0 AS you basically do 1 auto attack per second. Pulling one auto will makes you "move" 0 m/s for 0,4 second while during the other 0.6 second you will move at 5.5 m/s. So with all that, for a span of 1s you moved for 5.5*0.6 = 3.3 meters

      Now 2.0 AS => you do 2 auto attacks per second, so 2 times you get the 0.4 second standtime that makes 0.8s at 0 m/s and 0.2s @ 5.5 m/s => you can move 5.5*0.2 = 1.1 meters (theorethically, in practice you will not move unless you know perfectly how to time movement and autos)

      Now let's take the fully stacked E from normal bow. Without any other speed buff steroid than enchanted quiver you get +90%AS. That makes your bow having 2.47 AS per second basically telling you that you will auto 2.47 times per second. With the stantime => 2.47*0.4 = 0.988 second immobile. No need to say more than it's impossible to move thus this is the actual reason why normal bow is the definition of machine turret.

      This chart might help you have a clear view of the difference between the actual stantime and the project standtime (to calculate the adaptative standtime simply multiply 0.3 by your actual attack speed

      Attack speedActual StandtimeAvg. Distance done per secNew project StandtimeAvg. New Distance done per sec
      0.670.44.030.453.85
      0.80.43.740.383.85
      1.00.43.300.303.85
      1.10.43.080.273.85
      1.30.42.640.233.85
      1.80.41.540.173.85
      2.10.40.880.143.85
      2.50.40.000.123.85



      Not all weapon has the same 0.4 standtime actually (if i'm not mistaken every sword, mace, hammer, axe, bloodletter, 1h dagger are the exeption with 16 frames standtime on 60fps => 0.27 standtime) but in what i'm proposing is actually to get every weapon on the same ground for stantime auto-attacks.

      Of course when you see that new standtime on high attack speed it will be amazing for auto-based build that can work with attack speed sterioid and that's the objective here. Now if it makes normal bow and whispering bow OP. I'm completely ok to tone down the damage but at least it makes it very confortable to use thoses weapons.


      Zyrex wrote:

      Do you have a decent whispering build that you can share (that can perform very well where you believe it can?) Please do share
      Thank you
      Head : Mage cowl / Demon helm / Cleric cowl / hellion hood
      Armor : Any cloth robe beside druidic, scholar, royal robe / Merc jacket, assasin jacket
      Boots : any boots with Run ability or cleric sandals for blink

      The only attack speed buffs that i recomend taking is the attack speed passive on bow only if you're looking for long fights.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Owlsane ().

    • Owlsane wrote:

      Zyrex wrote:

      Do you have a decent whispering build that you can share (that can perform very well where you believe it can?) Please do share
      Head : Mage cowl / Demon helm / Cleric cowl / hellion hoodArmor : Any cloth robe beside druidic, scholar, royal robe / Merc jacket, assasin jacket
      Boots : any boots with Run ability or cleric sandals for blink

      The only attack speed buffs that i recomend taking is the attack speed passive on bow only if you're looking for long fights.
      I have tested this build previously and it somewhat sacrifices attack speed for the increased damage(although attack speed passive and morgana cape can bring out the best in this build). I will see what I can do in terms of playstyle to make it work better

      Also, thanks for the effort of the chart. It cleared things out and I do agree with you even so.
      Hope SBI does something to improve the beloved whispering bow.
    • Owlsane wrote:

      Of course when you see that new standtime on high attack speed it will be amazing for auto-based build that can work with attack speed sterioid and that's the objective here. Now if it makes normal bow and whispering bow OP. I'm completely ok to tone down the damage but at least it makes it very confortable to use thoses weapons.
      I couldn't agree more with you. This and the above said (AS - stand time)
      Normal bow actually needs a nerf (because to everything you have said, you need to add that its only 20 sec CD and, you can have 2 E almost in line). To you idea to down the damage, we need to include a prevent to what i said (for example, CD start once you shoot your first arrow).
      Buttttt, regarding whispering bow, it def needs a buff (just a little bit). Maybe a AS buff, or more seconds with your E activated. Actually only set viable right now is hunter jacket (and any of the head gear you mentioned.
    • Extasis wrote:

      Owlsane wrote:

      Of course when you see that new standtime on high attack speed it will be amazing for auto-based build that can work with attack speed sterioid and that's the objective here. Now if it makes normal bow and whispering bow OP. I'm completely ok to tone down the damage but at least it makes it very confortable to use thoses weapons.
      I couldn't agree more with you. This and the above said (AS - stand time)Normal bow actually needs a nerf (because to everything you have said, you need to add that its only 20 sec CD and, you can have 2 E almost in line). To you idea to down the damage, we need to include a prevent to what i said (for example, CD start once you shoot your first arrow).
      Buttttt, regarding whispering bow, it def needs a buff (just a little bit). Maybe a AS buff, or more seconds with your E activated. Actually only set viable right now is hunter jacket (and any of the head gear you mentioned.
      That's true, although I would recommend being more flexible with auto-based builds and not just focusing on Attack-speed steroids.

      For example, you can set-up your auto-based whispering bow to have slow AS like 1.3, per say using cloth-armor sets for max damage % output and beef stew (without the attack speed passive buff applied). It'll shoot slow but actually hits like a truck making each shot feel more "rewarding" in a sense where it the damage done is impactful enough to become a threat.

      Also take note, slower AS allows the player to actually put the "attack-move" mechanic to better use instead of having the game adjust the core gameplay mechanics itself around the player. Just give the game a work-around to have the player adjust much easier towards the core gameplay mechanics. Since you are able to do only 1 attack at most per second with slow AS, you will be able to cover more ground and attack every second with a much larger and impactful damage dealt. Being a turret is actually useless and weak in open-world PVP where mobility is king and the environment is your tool.

      A damage buff would be more plausible since if you use Hunter's jacket, you would need to sacrifice a possible defensive for a measly 20% damage buff and a decent AS buff of 60% from Haste, you would deal insane amounts of damage, but at the same time, be really easy to kill.
    • There is 2 more solutions to this issue :

      1) All weapon get's their standtime on auto set to 0.2s or 0.3s (no adaptative standtime)

      2) An variant iteration of adaptative standtime but based on the BASE AS of the weapon

      Here is the example :
      Base ASWeapons concernedNew standtime
      1.4Dual Swords
      Galatine
      0.20
      1.3All Arcane staff
      All Curse staff
      All Fire staff
      All Frost
      All Holy staff
      All Nature staff
      All Bows
      0.20
      1.2Bloodletter0.20
      1.1All Daggers (exept BL)
      Heron Spear
      1h Spear
      Boltcasters
      0.25
      1.0All Quarter staff
      Light crossbow
      All swords (exept dual and galatine)
      0.25
      0.9Battleaxe
      Glaive
      0.25
      0.8Spears (exept heron /1h/glaive)
      Axes (exept BattleAxe)
      Normal crossbow
      Weeping repeater
      Hammer
      Forged Hammers
      Incubus Mace
      Mace
      Bedrock Mace
      0.30
      0.67Heavy Crossbow
      Siegebow
      All Hammers (Exept forged/ Hammer)
      All Maces (exept mace/incubus/bedrock)
      0.30

      With thoses new standtime there is only Maces, Axes and Hammers (thoses with 0.8 and 0.67 AS ONLY) that gets very slightly nerfed but it's a non-factor cuz 1) They are not designed to be auto-builds 2) they will lose 4 frames per auto on 60 fps...

      Now to have a visual of how mobility will be affected depending of thoses standtime :
      Attack speed0.670.81.01.11.31.82.12.5
      Avg distance/second with 0.20 standtime4.76 m/s4.62 m/s4.4 m/s4.29 m/s4.07 m/s3.52 m/s3.19 m/s2.75 m/s
      Avg distance/second with 0.25 standtime4.58 m/s4.4 m/s4.12 m/s3.99 m/s3.71 m/s3.03 m/s2.62 m/s2.06 m/s
      Avg distance/second with 0.30 standtime4.39 m/s4.18 m/s3.85 m/s3.69 m/s3.56 m/s2.53 m/s2.04 m/s1.38 m/s

      Now if i have to chose between thoses 2 solutions + the one i've proposed earlier i would chose this one. Thoses values even with high AS are proporionate on comfort vs fairness.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Owlsane ().

    • Owlsane wrote:

      There is 2 more solutions to this issue :

      1) All weapon get's their standtime on auto set to 0.2s or 0.3s (no adaptative standtime)

      2) An variant iteration of adaptative standtime but based on the BASE AS of the weapon

      Here is the example :
      Base ASWeapons concernedNew standtime
      1.4Dual SwordsGalatine
      0.20
      1.3All Arcane staffAll Curse staff
      All Fire staff
      All Frost
      All Holy staff
      All Nature staff
      All Bows
      0.20
      1.2Bloodletter0.20
      1.1All Daggers (exept BL)Heron Spear
      1h Spear
      Boltcasters
      0.25
      1.0All Quarter staffLight crossbow
      All swords (exept dual and galatine)
      0.25
      0.9BattleaxeGlaive
      0.25
      0.8Spears (exept heron /1h/glaive)Axes (exept BattleAxe)
      Normal crossbow
      Weeping repeater
      Hammer
      Forged Hammers
      Incubus Mace
      Mace
      Bedrock Mace
      0.30
      0.67Heavy CrossbowSiegebow
      All Hammers (Exept forged/ Hammer)
      All Maces (exept mace/incubus/bedrock)
      0.30

      With thoses new standtime there is only Maces, Axes and Hammers (thoses with 0.8 and 0.67 AS ONLY) that gets very slightly nerfed but it's a non-factor cuz 1) They are not designed to be auto-builds 2) they will lose 4 frames per auto on 60 fps...

      Now to have a visual of how mobility will be affected depending of thoses standtime :
      Attack speed0.670.81.01.11.31.82.12.5
      Avg distance/second with 0.20 standtime4.76 m/s4.62 m/s4.4 m/s4.29 m/s4.07 m/s3.52 m/s3.19 m/s2.75 m/s
      Avg distance/second with 0.25 standtime4.58 m/s4.4 m/s4.12 m/s3.99 m/s3.71 m/s3.03 m/s2.62 m/s2.06 m/s
      Avg distance/second with 0.30 standtime4.39 m/s4.18 m/s3.85 m/s3.69 m/s3.56 m/s2.53 m/s2.04 m/s1.38 m/s

      Now if i have to chose between thoses 2 solutions + the one i've proposed earlier i would chose this one. Thoses values even with high AS are proporionate on comfort vs fairness.
      Would all of this matter if the user has high ping?
    • Even if Whispering Bow was reworked to just specifically deal with healers (adding a brief silence [or strong interrupt] and/or a healing reduction effect to the E) would probably be enough to make it more viable in different scenarios. If it were a medium/hard counter to healers... it would then have purpose in both large group play and in some solo PvP situations. But it still wouldn't be particularly strong against plate or leather armor, and that's fine.

      It would be nice to have it as an option in a rock/paper/scissors scenario where it beats healers, which in turn beat tanks, which in turn beat whispering bows. But that might require more balancing.
    • I'm rather concerned with just it being actually "better" than a regular bow lmfao. I can confirm that a regular bow can already hard-counter healers if allowed full 6-stack E wind-up at max spec, it melts really well. But the whispering bow is a joke atm.

      Sure, it can tickle people on the other side of a cliff due to its excessive range but its damage on its own hurts like someone stabbed you with a toothpick -This is a truly sad but true example

      Right now I've already re-specced into the curse tree as I see Whispering's lack of purpose anywhere atm

      -Not as good for open-world since Warbow is clearly made for that
      -GVG? Regular bow has got that down
      -ZvZ? Nah, Wailing hard claps
      -Small scale pvp? Would rather still use Warbow due to great mobility and low cooldown abilities + CC and damage combined
    • If any of the Devs could see this here are some more of my summarized ideas for improvement:

      Other than @Owlsane's standtime solution which is quite a complex adjustment

      -Add bonus damage equal to a certain % of the target's hp (not just players so we can make this viable both for PVE and PVP - it's only fair since regular bow does reduce target's resistances at max stacks)
      either or
      -Add a bonus 50%-60% attack speed while Undead arrows is active (so players don't have to resort to using Hunter's jacket, sacrificing defensives just so we can be a little bit more "optimal" with the damage output)
      or
    • Zyrex wrote:

      I'm rather concerned with just it being actually "better" than a regular bow lmfao.
      I mean, sure, but most artifact weapons have a unique ability which makes it stand out in certain situations. But while the bonus range and damage is simply unimpressive... also giving it the Bow's E (attack speed + resistance shred) would just about make it the most powerful weapon in the game. That why I suggest just giving the ability a bit more dazzle without cranking its damage up to the moon. It wouldn't have to be an interrupt/silence, but that's something that wouldn't crush every other build while giving it more of a role in more scenarios. I think a silence/interrupt would be more than enough to make it viable. And it would be in keeping with the name of the item.

      Zyrex wrote:

      -Add bonus damage equal to a certain % of the target's hp (not just players so we can make this viable both for PVE and PVP - it's only fair since regular bow does reduce target's resistances at max stacks)
      This wouldn't be too bad. It would then be a threat to tanks but wouldn't crush everything else.

      Zyrex wrote:

      -Add a bonus 50%-60% attack speed while Undead arrows is active (so players don't have to resort to using Hunter's jacket, sacrificing defensives just so we can be a little bit more "optimal" with the damage output)
      I think this is too much and would make it completely wreck face everywhere.
    • Zyrex wrote:

      Other than @Owlsane's standtime solution which is quite a complex adjustment
      It is one of the most simplest change they can add to auto-builds actually. Since recent times, SBI changed a lot of spells standtime and hit delay as simple as a snap of my fingertips.

      The only complex thing i will see is rebalance spells after this change (example normal bow) but honnestly that's pretty much it

      Zyrex wrote:

      -Add a bonus 50%-60% attack speed while Undead arrows is active (so players don't have to resort to using Hunter's jacket, sacrificing defensives just so we can be a little bit more "optimal" with the damage output)
      or
      Well actually this attack speed buff you can get it with speed shot but this spell is so bad in the current state of the game that you're retarded if you use it.

      With the standtime change suggestion it might be the best spell for auto-builds (add also the self cast instead of hitting something to get the buff and it will be gucci)
    • Simple buff to that bow: To allow you to attack whille moving when you use your E, increase skill duration to 10sec, but match dmg (8sec skill = 10sec skill in dmg), increase CD 20sec->30sec.

      Nice equipments to use with that change: Royal chest(get your CD fast), Specter hood(or very fast), Specter shoes(get invisible and wait your E CD, since that bow doesnt drain much mana), assassin hood(same), mercenary shoes(same) ...

      Bows has low DPS, low DMG but high speed atk. And you must be stationary to attack, or you wont deal dmg. For normal bow, this is not a problem because you can use your E before enter a fight.. take some cd.. enter fight, and use E again. You have 2 E with that. Ok, everyone know that. For whisper bow, this is a problem. Normal bow deals more dmg than whisper bow too.

      So, that configuration (low dps, low dmg, high speed) doesnt fit in whisper bow. You waste dmg when you move to take distance, or to dodge something.

      There is no situation where whisper bow beat normal bow.

      The best weapons to move while attacking is the ones that need to deal normal attacks and has high speed atk. Others weapons deals dmg using "Q", or you can synchronize your atk with your movement, without loose dmg in that transition. For exemple: I play with trinity. Trinity is a normal-atk weapon. It has high dmg, but low atk speed(1.0 with passives). I can deal one atk, and move while my "basic atk is in CD", then atk again. 1sec per atk is a lot, then you can do that transition with that weapon. But with bow, you can reach 2.0+ atq speed.

      Normal bow is a half-stationary weapon. You dont "lose" your E when you run, so, you dont loose dmg. You do have so much skill time. You can attack and move easilly. Plus it is a way lot more powerfull than whisper. Only weapon that remains(for that E change) is the whisper, and this is why it needs to attack while moving.

      The post was edited 7 times, last by ViniColen ().

    • About whispering bow...
      I can see two possibilities actually on whispering bow to be somewhat interesting => still need the standtime shit halved, i can't understand why a simple auto-attack baby damage needs you to stay more imobile than any damage spell that deals 40 000 times more damage than an auto...

      1- The execute route
      70.00 base damage on 0% missing health, 140.00 base damage on 100% missing health (each missing healt percent buffs the damage and to picture the dps you will deal more damage on a target with 50% missing health with your autos than the aoe Q from frost)

      2- The anti-tank route (my favorite)

      I suggest that during your undead arrow buff, each of your E damage ignores a resistance value depending of the target's armor. (Ignores 20% on cloths, 35% on leather and 50% on plate armor)

      Example :
      1) Tanks has like 69% resistance then only 35% will apply on E damage
      2) Leather has like 64% resistance then only 42% apply on E damage
      3) Cloth has like 59% resistance then only 47% apply on E damage

      This ignoring resistances thing ONLY applies to the E damage of undead arrow, everything other damage source not being undead arrow damage will get the standard resistance.

      With that you have a hard hitting spell on any heavy resistance build and will be oblivious to any resistance buff watsoever.

      We need a true Q spell for auto-attacks...
      We still need a true Q spell designed for auto-attacks. Actually nobody use multishot since the other 2 Q spells does 10000000 times better their role and damage. This is the best oportunity to rework this spell.

      Multishot can save it's name, this spell buffs your character for 5s making your auto-dealing an additionnal 23.00 base damage (the exact same value of the auto-attack damage from bow so it's like shooting 2 arrows ya feel me? On the animation you make that the character shots directly a second arrow after the first one => fits completely into the multishot thema)

      With that you have an aoe poke style Q, a pure kiting dot spell Q and an auto-attack based Q

      Enchanted Quiver and the kiting bow contradiction
      For me bow are not machine turret weapon. They were presented me as a kiting weapon since the beginning not as a machine turret. If people wants machine turret weapons they have fire and frost staff for that, they do the work better. When people tells me that the whole weapon line is all about kiting but you have just the god of machine turret in it i can only feel that those guys are hard on the drugs and trust me that's a lot of lads that i know that believe hard on that.

      So i'm tackling about the attack speed buff thoses stacks provides. Basically remove any attack speed steroid and instead just give more auto-attack damage buff. (If they still want machine turret gameplay on bow just take morgana cape, hunter jacket, royal jacket etc etc...)

      So in short :
      Attack speed per stack : 15% -> 0%
      Normal attack buff per stack : 35% (210% at max stack) -> 50% (300% at max stack and i think the hard cap is 300% right?)
      Amount of shots : 18 -> 16

      And voila all the good stuff to make bow auto-builds better

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Owlsane ().