Dev Talk: Crystal League

    • I’ve never understood introducing soft caps. Why put a soft cap in place for beginner content instead of just basing beginner content on 6.1-6.0 gear and hard capping at 1200. Low ip content has always just been cheese and never holds up at higher ip.

      Seems like this system is setting up Peter to fail.

    • (About BM) Having credibility is one of the most important things when you want to develop a project that depends on an audience.


      On the other hand and about this new system, it doesn't make new or veteran gvg players happy, I see it too messy and easily abused. I think it will fail and it will have to be touched up a thousand times, but who knows if it can be a good starting point.


      When I first read about this, I imagined it more as a kind of ladder, without time constraints and more agile. Wanting to put everything together, season points, tower levels, guild goals, initial content, high end content ... too many things. It is better to make a simple system and, when it works, you can complicate it, than gibberish from the first hour.

    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      1. Please note that the IP caps for crystal GvGs are soft caps as in the current GvG system. IP above the cap will be scaled down by 80%. It will matter quite a bit, in particular given that each team size is fixed, i.e. an IP disadvantage cannot be compensated through players numbers as in the open world. Based on experience gathered once the system goes live, we'll optimize the cap values and scale down where required.

      2. We will review the proposed time zones based on feedback received. Any suggestions are welcome!
      Please change the IP cap to 1200 IP (with 80%-100% soft/hard cap) for level 1, 2, and 3. 1200 is when the game will play well and still be accessible to newer players. It is not hard to reach 1200 IP. Keep the same cap for levels 1-3 so we only have to prepare one tier of gear instead of 3 depending on which level we're doing.

      Please significantly increase the number of timers for levels 1, 2, and 3 while decreasing the rewards. I would suggest having a crystal every hour (1,2,3 repeating every 3 hours). I posted these suggestions with more detail here: Crystal League - Rewards and Schedule

    • If the softcap is 50% reduced only all the early balancement problems are over... If cap is 700 at level 1 and someone goes with 1300 set (6.1 400/400 set) they will fight with 1000 IP, which is already nice.


      However i don't see how this will allow beginners to try Crystal League... a hard cap of 80% is way more efficient to allow beginners to try it.


      I'd rather see poisons capped at Crystal League, Thetford capes (and all capes, basically) balanced in all tiers (since only T4 is nice cost benefit due to the ammount of hearts used to craft), and Deathgivers... i never felt those as a problem. They aren't that hard to counter even in 700 IP.

    • Lanyday wrote:

      @ImaDoki

      It's 80% not 50%. I read 50% from Korn's post too, but it seems to have changed. Maybe he edited it.

      Also 1000 average IP after 50% softcap isn't a good balance either. Most crystals are played at ~1200 IP (~1400 IP capped to ~1200 at the 1000 50% softcap).
      Sorry for the confusion. That part is also still under internal discussion. We could also envision a system where the % value starts high at the low level crystals and then goes down the 50% that we have right now for most normal GvGs.

      Note that mathematically, where the soft cap starts does not matter that much if you assume that player gear + masteries is above the soft cap (which it almost always will be. If one player has 1400 IP and the other 1300, and the soft cap starts at 1300 with 50%, the IP difference is 50 IP. If the soft cap starts at 700, the IP difference is still 50 IP - which, roughly, is a 5% difference in terms of damage and survivability (though consumable balance might be different - any input here is much appreciated!)

    • @Korn

      Fights at 800 IP and 1200 IP do not feel the same. Not everything scales the same with IP. There is a lot of math behind this that I'm not going to get into right now. Your team can spend a ton of time trying to fix balancing at various IPs or you can just increase the IP cap to something reasonable like 1200. Whatever decision you make, please make it BEFORE January 20th so you don't lose all of your competitive players.

      Another mistake I think SBI is making here is aiming the most common GvGs towards newer players. This is the opposite of how it should be. The people who want to play GvGs every day or multiple times a day are the hardcore players. You are destroying content for your competitive players by only allowing them to have their high tier, competitive GvGs a few times a month.

      I don't know the best way to reconcile this. Perhaps you could have 'level 0' crystal GvGs on the weekends during high tier fights that are heavily capped and have a low entry bar. Then increase the daily GvG IP cap.

      But there absolutely has to be daily content that is aimed at high tier GvG players.

    • My thoughts:

      1. Timers are wrong, there should be More for each Tier, or even the same timer.
      The idea of having tiers on crystals is to have an ELO system, allowing vet gvg players play all days low tier gvg fights, will be just an stomp against new gvg players.
      2. If you lock high Tier battles once, twice, x time a month, you are just killing high Tier competitive and high tier gvg teams are oblied to play low tier gvgs 1/3 because thats the only thing they can, matching high tier players vs new players on gvg.
      Its like in league of legends you just let Diamond players play on Diamond once a month , but allow them to play everyday on Bronze, vs Bronze players. Not even fun for both sides.


      My idea: Let high team players play their high token everyday, all gvgs at same hour.
      If X token is not used X time, its demoted.
      You let everybody play on their "ELO" and you dont let múltiple high lvl tokens stacks.

      If a guild has many territories with the new system, they should have More people to fight all those, at the same time they should have more gvg teams and not only 3 teams for 200 people, that Will boost all territories with alters.
      Thats the way you incentivate people to participarte on gvgs and not get stomped always by veterans gvg players.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by baibiscuit ().

    • I definitely agree that the timers here are not really going to make the situation better.

      1 - 700/80 every hour
      2 - 800/80 every hour
      3 - 900/80 every hour
      4 - 1000/80 - 3 timers - everyday
      5 - 1000/50 - 3 timers - everyday
      6 - 1200/50 - 3 timers - twice a week
      7 - 1400/50 - 3 timers - once a week
      8 - 1600/50 - 3 timers(?) - once a month
      9 - No cap - 3 timers(?) once a season

      A distribution like this (you can play around with the numbers, this is just an example) is something that works far better imo. In this imagined distribution, my proposed level5 would be the equivalent of the current cgvg system (1000IP 50% cap) but with the extra SEA timer added.

      Level1-3 crystals should basically replace the current Arena system imo.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by faintrespite ().

    • faintrespite wrote:

      I definitely agree that the timers here are not really going to make the situation better.

      1 - 700/80 every hour
      2 - 800/80 every hour
      3 - 900/80 every hour
      4 - 1000/80 3 times a day
      5 - 1000/50 3 times a day
      6 - 1200/50 - twice a week
      7 - 1400/50 - once a week
      8 - 1600/50 - once a month
      9 - No cap - once a season

      A distribution like this (you can play around with the numbers, this is just an example) is something that works far better imo. In this imagined distribution, my proposed level5 would be the equivalent of the current cgvg system (1000IP 50% cap) but with the extra SEA timer added.
      +1

    • Disregard wrote:

      Neef wrote:

      How does it feel breaking your word and using Exclusive season rewards to fund players because your art team is to lazy to make new battle mounts. The Beetle doesn't say its Exclusive and all other season battle mounts after the beetle im sure wont be Exclusive but going back on your word for the ones that are already listed as Exclusive is and should always be the wrong way to go. I understand you "changed" your mind on theses mounts but only the ones that were made after this change was made should be used. Otherwise how do we know you wont use every item you list as Exclusive because well you feel like it? Your word is your bond!


      PS. Its not about the damn mount is about your WORD.
      please stop this is quite obnoxious
      they are in the market for 10 mil hardly that exclusive, not like a one time cosmetic or some shit

      bye enjoy another game
      This isn't about that, its about principle. When SBI states that an item is exclusive or not going to be released again, people who struggle to obtain those items or spend tons of money (in game or otherwise) investing in them should be able to count on SBI holding to their word. Here's why:

      1. They told players these items were exclusive and many players in many clans put in the hours and made sacrifices over months to earn these items with the expectation that these items would not be released again in the future. If a player decides to sell the items they earned then fine, its their choice. But for others who kept these items that they've earned, this move says that the sacrifices and time they put in to obtain them means nothing as they are going to hand them out again.

      2. Players who invested in these items have put in a good deal of capital based on the promise these items were exclusive and not to be released. By reintroducing these items, SBI is actively breaking their promise and affecting the market by putting more into the game and reducing their value.

      3. Players who are collectors have collected these items with the expectation that no more will enter the game and that these items will be cool exclusive collectibles that might mean something in the future. This move mean that the collectibility of an item in the future means nothing. No one has a problem with holiday items or adventurer's challenge items being reintroduced because SBI has stated that these items may be released again in the future. However, the exclusivity of guild season items is not on that list and shouldn't be reintroduced again.

      So in short this is about very important principles:
      -SBI is breaking their word on item exclusivity or items not going to be released again.
      -This move tells players that the sacrifices they made and time put in to obtain these items mean nothing.
      -This move tells investors that the money they put in could be lost at any moment because of a rerelease that shouldn't have happened.
      -This move tells collectors that the "exclusive" items they obtain have no real collectibility.

      For these principle reasons I have a problem with this move. I earned these items in guild seasons, invested in them, and collected them and SBI is saying that it all means nothing. That is why for me at least, this is a move that will be a final straw for me. If others do not feel the same way thats fine as you are entitled to your opinion.

      As for the player who said the game doesn't need people like me I want you to keep something in mind; I supported this game financially back when it was just a concept and they needed funds to get a working game off the ground. Because of players like me you have a game to play and enjoy so you're welcome.
      Alpha and Beta Tester, Legendary Founder and Starter, Recruiter

    • Zorva wrote:

      Disregard wrote:

      Neef wrote:

      How does it feel breaking your word and using Exclusive season rewards to fund players because your art team is to lazy to make new battle mounts. The Beetle doesn't say its Exclusive and all other season battle mounts after the beetle im sure wont be Exclusive but going back on your word for the ones that are already listed as Exclusive is and should always be the wrong way to go. I understand you "changed" your mind on theses mounts but only the ones that were made after this change was made should be used. Otherwise how do we know you wont use every item you list as Exclusive because well you feel like it? Your word is your bond!


      PS. Its not about the damn mount is about your WORD.
      please stop this is quite obnoxiousthey are in the market for 10 mil hardly that exclusive, not like a one time cosmetic or some shit

      bye enjoy another game
      This isn't about that, its about principle. When SBI states that an item is exclusive or not going to be released again, people who struggle to obtain those items or spend tons of money (in game or otherwise) investing in them should be able to count on SBI holding to their word. Here's why:
      1. They told players these items were exclusive and many players in many clans put in the hours and made sacrifices over months to earn these items with the expectation that these items would not be released again in the future. If a player decides to sell the items they earned then fine, its their choice. But for others who kept these items that they've earned, this move says that the sacrifices and time they put in to obtain them means nothing as they are going to hand them out again.

      2. Players who invested in these items have put in a good deal of capital based on the promise these items were exclusive and not to be released. By reintroducing these items, SBI is actively breaking their promise and affecting the market by putting more into the game and reducing their value.

      3. Players who are collectors have collected these items with the expectation that no more will enter the game and that these items will be cool exclusive collectibles that might mean something in the future. This move mean that the collectibility of an item in the future means nothing. No one has a problem with holiday items or adventurer's challenge items being reintroduced because SBI has stated that these items may be released again in the future. However, the exclusivity of guild season items is not on that list and shouldn't be reintroduced again.

      So in short this is about very important principles:
      -SBI is breaking their word on item exclusivity or items not going to be released again.
      -This move tells players that the sacrifices they made and time put in to obtain these items mean nothing.
      -This move tells investors that the money they put in could be lost at any moment because of a rerelease that shouldn't have happened.
      -This move tells collectors that the "exclusive" items they obtain have no real collectibility.

      For these principle reasons I have a problem with this move. I earned these items in guild seasons, invested in them, and collected them and SBI is saying that it all means nothing. That is why for me at least, this is a move that will be a final straw for me. If others do not feel the same way thats fine as you are entitled to your opinion.

      As for the player who said the game doesn't need people like me I want you to keep something in mind; I supported this game financially back when it was just a concept and they needed funds to get a working game off the ground. Because of players like me you have a game to play and enjoy so you're welcome.

      Get over it there will be like 2-3 per season created theres already over 1000 in the game
      IGN: DungeonRealms
      Founded Elevate
      Won Season 9
      #1 Locus Kill Fame
      Held 6 cities till SBI deleted them :/

    • @Disregard

      Since you missed the overall point I was making, let me ask you this:

      Do you think it's ok for SBI to promise players that guild season items are exclusive to their respected seasons and will not be released again only to go back on that promise and release them again?

      For me, I don't think that's right. It's not fair to the players for the reasons I stated above and I know SBI can do better as a company. They need to keep their word.

      I am by no means saying SBI is a bad company. They have done many things in the past that show they care about their players and they have been fairly honest about collectible items in the past. This however is not a trend that should be started now or in the future. People can say what they want about me or my points, but I feel strongly about someone keeping their word and I will not back down on this regardless of how much crap I get for it.
      Alpha and Beta Tester, Legendary Founder and Starter, Recruiter

    • @Korn I think the IP caps are totally fair but the bad thing is there will be too few content for players used to play with high IP.

      This is the idea i gave a couple of days ago:

      1. As Winners get a token for the next level, the losers got a token of one level below. I.E. in a tier 6 fight the winners get a level 7 token while the losers get a level 5 token.
      2. Setting more battle times along the day for all levels. (prob. 8/day is a good number)

      This way everyone will climb and fall in the different levels depending on their skill.

      I guess beginners would be between 1 and 4, average players would be in 4 to 6 and experts would stay moving up and down between levels 6 to 9. You know, everyone pushing each other up and down all the time and u would stay around the level u deserve to be.

    • Zorva wrote:

      @Disregard

      Since you missed the overall point I was making, let me ask you this:

      Do you think it's ok for SBI to promise players that guild season items are exclusive to their respected seasons and will not be released again only to go back on that promise and release them again?

      For me, I don't think that's right. It's not fair to the players for the reasons I stated above and I know SBI can do better as a company. They need to keep their word.

      I am by no means saying SBI is a bad company. They have done many things in the past that show they care about their players and they have been fairly honest about collectible items in the past. This however is not a trend that should be started now or in the future. People can say what they want about me or my points, but I feel strongly about someone keeping their word and I will not back down on this regardless of how much crap I get for it.
      Yes i couldnt give a shit whether or not they brought back an item that there are thousands of tradeable instances of in the economy/market, please stop whining about irrelevant crap when this thread is announcing the end of 5v5 if they dont fix this system by the time it releases
      IGN: DungeonRealms
      Founded Elevate
      Won Season 9
      #1 Locus Kill Fame
      Held 6 cities till SBI deleted them :/

    • Korn wrote:

      Hey there,

      1. Please note that the IP caps for crystal GvGs are soft caps as in the current GvG system. IP above the cap will be scaled down by 80%. It will matter quite a bit, in particular given that each team size is fixed, i.e. an IP disadvantage cannot be compensated through players numbers as in the open world. Based on experience gathered once the system goes live, we'll optimize the cap values and scale down where required.

      2. We will review the proposed time zones based on feedback received. Any suggestions are welcome!

      regarding 2. i think the biggest issue is the 2 UTC timeslot that will mean that during PST time, due to daylight savings, we would need to fight at 5 PM PST our time. currently its 6 PM PST.

      otherwise i dont have any other input

    • Hello @Korn,

      First of all I want to make it clear that the problem these two years that few people competed in the GvGs is precisely that there was no IP cap and then the IP cap was only 50% making the entry point relatively high (expensive to lose and not wanting to try again next day to improve) even abusive for those with a lot of wealth (in Anglia they played with T8.2).
      The IP cap of 80% must remain across all levels, even putting 100% would not hurt anyone. What could be modified is the IP floor for each level. Starting at 900 and ending in 1700.

      The only ones who are complaining about the IP cap are those who want to continue snooping newbies with high tier equipment, the hypocritical thing about this is that they want highly competitive content that requires skill but rely on their ideas with which part of the problem is the IP cap. What is true is the rarity of the high levels in terms of their timers but I imagine that reworking the balance of the season points, the rewards and the times will not be something easy to do when Queen comes out. Please do not fall into the argument of the IP cap, it is healthy for the game to have 5 vs 5 content per skill and not only have the advantage of having higher tier equipment.

      ¡Have a happy holiday! ^^

    • Disregard wrote:

      Zorva wrote:

      @Disregard

      Since you missed the overall point I was making, let me ask you this:

      Do you think it's ok for SBI to promise players that guild season items are exclusive to their respected seasons and will not be released again only to go back on that promise and release them again?

      For me, I don't think that's right. It's not fair to the players for the reasons I stated above and I know SBI can do better as a company. They need to keep their word.

      I am by no means saying SBI is a bad company. They have done many things in the past that show they care about their players and they have been fairly honest about collectible items in the past. This however is not a trend that should be started now or in the future. People can say what they want about me or my points, but I feel strongly about someone keeping their word and I will not back down on this regardless of how much crap I get for it.
      Yes i couldnt give a shit whether or not they brought back an item that there are thousands of tradeable instances of in the economy/market, please stop whining about irrelevant crap when this thread is announcing the end of 5v5 if they dont fix this system by the time it releases
      Oh so only things you care about matter? Its not about the item itself, that is what you do not understand if there word cannot be held on a simple item how do you think there "word" will mean on any type of system say the GVG system. Because if you will break your word on one thing you will no dout break it on something else including game systems.