Disarray (Zerg Debuff)

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    • Wargorth wrote:

      ]According to my calculations if we dont consider tanks as much:[/size]

      77 people is effectively ~ 59.3 people
      &
      167 people is effectively ~ 49.5‬ people

      Going any more than 120 is not needed and slowly nerfs your zerg the more you go above it.
      So if we ignore Tanks, Black Order really had the advantage here. If it was 77 vs 120 they would have the disadvantage.

      Hey there,

      would you mind sharing your calculations?

      The general (simplified) logic used is this:

      1. The "relative value" V of a player after the debuff is given by V=T*D where T = tankyness and D = damage output. T = 1/(1+extra dmg taken from debuff). D = (1-reduced damage dealt). So, for example, if a player has 20% reduced damage dealt and 25% more damage taken, his relative value V = (1/1.25) * 0.8 = 0.8*0.8 = 0.64 - simplied, he is worth as much as 0.64 players without the debuff

      2. Now, we need to consider that any extra player not only gets the debuff himself, but also increases the debuff for all other players already in the group.

      3. To calculate "effective zerg size" Z, one needs to take the number of players N times the relative value per player V, i.e. Z = N*V = N*(1-reduced dmg dealt)/1+extra dmg taken)

      A few examples
      N = 50 -> Z = 47.04
      N = 100 -> Z = 75.27
      N = 150 -> Z = 85.52
      N = 200 -> Z = 76.31

    • Korn wrote:

      Wargorth wrote:

      ]According to my calculations if we dont consider tanks as much:[/size]

      77 people is effectively ~ 59.3 people
      &
      167 people is effectively ~ 49.5‬ people

      Going any more than 120 is not needed and slowly nerfs your zerg the more you go above it.
      So if we ignore Tanks, Black Order really had the advantage here. If it was 77 vs 120 they would have the disadvantage.
      Hey there,

      would you mind sharing your calculations?

      The general (simplified) logic used is this:

      1. The "relative value" V of a player after the debuff is given by V=T*D where T = tankyness and D = damage output. T = 1/(1+extra dmg taken from debuff). D = (1-reduced damage dealt). So, for example, if a player has 20% reduced damage dealt and 25% more damage taken, his relative value V = (1/1.25) * 0.8 = 0.8*0.8 = 0.64 - simplied, he is worth as much as 0.64 players without the debuff

      2. Now, we need to consider that any extra player not only gets the debuff himself, but also increases the debuff for all other players already in the group.

      3. To calculate "effective zerg size" Z, one needs to take the number of players N times the relative value per player V, i.e. Z = N*V = N*(1-reduced dmg dealt)/1+extra dmg taken)

      A few examples
      N = 50 -> Z = 47.04
      N = 100 -> Z = 75.27
      N = 150 -> Z = 85.52
      N = 200 -> Z = 76.31
      I feel like Disarray is still catering to big fights when most people can't fight it effectively.

      The top effectiveness imo should be between 50~70 players. It's enough to generate a big fight without too much fps drop and is more easily achievable by most guilds/alliances.

      Those 100+ fights per side is just a lag fest.

    • gmatagmis wrote:

      According to most battleboards, statistically, 70-80 is optimal, because this size is able to beat any other sizes.
      Most guilds/alliance who reach a size greater than that number usually know how to organize to make flanking groups. You have to take into account all the factors, I see you very optimistic with the zerg debuff but most people think otherwise, it is still "loose" so that having a huge number of numbers does give you the advantage. Adding more people to increase your chances of winning is what ruins the ZvZ experience.

      Besides that you are not taking into account the small entities that in the long term are what keeps the game healthy. Most of the small guilds do not get to form 30 players, and the ridiculous excuse of "they must know where to go with the amount they have" I doubt is applicable in Queen when they cannot defend even their own hideout against huge boring zerg. ||

      Check this:
      reddit.com/r/albiononline/comm…3f6c/open_letter_for_sbi/

      reddit.com/r/albiononline/comm…out_disarray_zerg_debuff

    • Korn wrote:

      would you mind sharing your calculations?
      Yeah they are flawed, you are right!
      Thanks.

      Zerg = Number of Player * Value of each player
      Value of each player~ = Tankyness (which is 1/(1+extra dmg taken from debuff) ) * Damage Ouput = (which is 1-reduced damage dealt).



      Although not sure if I am being dumb again, but I think according to the above formular your examples are also wrong, I think. Or is there another variable that you have not talked about?

      Korn wrote:

      A few examples
      N = 50 -> Z = 47.04
      N = 100 -> Z = 75.27
      N = 150 -> Z = 85.52
      N = 200 -> Z = 76.31
      Player Threshholddefense vs playersdamage vs players
      50-6%-6%
      100-16%-19%
      150-26%-35%
      200-36%-56%



      So I would think now:
      N = 50 -> Z = 44.33~ (50 x V) | (0.8867924528301887 (=0.9433962264150943 x 0.94) )
      N = 100 -> Z = 69.82~ (100 x V‬) | (0.6982758620689655‬ (=0.8620689655172414‬ x 0.81) )
      N = 150 -> Z = 77.38~ (150 x V) | (0.5158730158730159 (=0.7936507936507937 x 0.65)
      N = 200 -> Z = 64.70~ (200 x V) | (0.3235294117647059 (=0.7352941176470588 x 0.44‬) )
      N = 77 -> Z = 61.04~ (77 x V) | (0.7927927927927928‬ (=0.9009009009009009‬ x 0.88‬) )
      N = 167 -> Z = 76.37~ (167 x V) | (0.4573643410852713‬ (=0.7751937984496124 x 0.59) )


      If you have the time correct me if I am wrong here too :D
      Cheers.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Wargorth ().

    • Constructor wrote:

      What is the definition of a “cluster?” Does it include people in hideouts, dungeons, and caves?

      It isn’t hard to see a new tactic to circumvent the smart clustering arising towards the center of the map.
      Cluster = Whole zone. Hideouts are instanced I don't think they count as being in that zone. caves(Not sure what caves you mean? Tunnels maybe? If so tunnels are there own clusters/zone as well).Dungs Are the same as hideouts instanced so they shouldnt count as being in the cluster/zone but when they come out they would.

    • I think there's 1 thing that is getting neglected and that is spamming tanks is still effective with big numbers, since cc doesn't have negative scaling in any way. I think disarray should also affect cc duration and cc resist, since in the formerly calculated 160 Vs 80 fight if the 160 man zerg has 40 more tanks, they can chain cc indefinetly, or cc bigger chunks of enemy zerg, removing any chance for dps to deal dmg.

      TL:DR make disarray affect cc duration and maybe even cc resist.

    • MSSJ wrote:

      I think there's 1 thing that is getting neglected and that is spamming tanks is still effective with big numbers, since cc doesn't have negative scaling in any way. I think disarray should also affect cc duration and cc resist, since in the formerly calculated 160 Vs 80 fight if the 160 man zerg has 40 more tanks, they can chain cc indefinetly, or cc bigger chunks of enemy zerg, removing any chance for dps to deal dmg.

      TL:DR make disarray affect cc duration and maybe even cc resist.
      What disarray should affect is the effective items´ IP. That way everything would be nerfed; max HP, Max energy, HP and energy regeneration, armor, CC duration, CC resistance, Healing power etc.
      Something like -5 IP points per every player above 20 of the same alliance in the same map. I.E. 100 men sharing alliance would get -400 IP each and 200 men would get a -900 IP each. Does it look like too much? Not really, that much is what huge zergs need to be affected to actually get hurt by their numbers and fighting other big zergs wouldnt be a problem since both sides will be affected equally.

      Also i dont understand how the smart list works but it looks like it will only help when a zone reaches its population cap but it wont stop a 100 men zerg to face a 250 men coming to attack. The easiest way to handle this is just set the zones to not allow more than something like 100 players of the same alliance.

    • Guilefulwolf wrote:

      MSSJ wrote:

      I think there's 1 thing that is getting neglected and that is spamming tanks is still effective with big numbers, since cc doesn't have negative scaling in any way. I think disarray should also affect cc duration and cc resist, since in the formerly calculated 160 Vs 80 fight if the 160 man zerg has 40 more tanks, they can chain cc indefinetly, or cc bigger chunks of enemy zerg, removing any chance for dps to deal dmg.

      TL:DR make disarray affect cc duration and maybe even cc resist.
      What disarray should affect is the effective items´ IP. That way everything would be nerfed; max HP, Max energy, HP and energy regeneration, armor, CC duration, CC resistance, Healing power etc.Something like -5 IP points per every player above 20 of the same alliance in the same map. I.E. 100 men sharing alliance would get -400 IP each and 200 men would get a -900 IP each. Does it look like too much? Not really, that much is what huge zergs need to be affected to actually get hurt by their numbers and fighting other big zergs wouldnt be a problem since both sides will be affected equally.

      Also i dont understand how the smart list works but it looks like it will only help when a zone reaches its population cap but it wont stop a 100 men zerg to face a 250 men coming to attack. The easiest way to handle this is just set the zones to not allow more than something like 100 players of the same alliance.
      IDK about the IP affect, If you took 900 IP from players that would make them have an avg of like 200 IP thats like wearing t1 gear lol, I don't think that would go over very well as I would think that a 50 man party around 1200IP could wipe a 200man zerg with 200IP pretty easy.

    • Neef wrote:

      Guilefulwolf wrote:

      MSSJ wrote:

      I think there's 1 thing that is getting neglected and that is spamming tanks is still effective with big numbers, since cc doesn't have negative scaling in any way. I think disarray should also affect cc duration and cc resist, since in the formerly calculated 160 Vs 80 fight if the 160 man zerg has 40 more tanks, they can chain cc indefinetly, or cc bigger chunks of enemy zerg, removing any chance for dps to deal dmg.

      TL:DR make disarray affect cc duration and maybe even cc resist.
      What disarray should affect is the effective items´ IP. That way everything would be nerfed; max HP, Max energy, HP and energy regeneration, armor, CC duration, CC resistance, Healing power etc.Something like -5 IP points per every player above 20 of the same alliance in the same map. I.E. 100 men sharing alliance would get -400 IP each and 200 men would get a -900 IP each. Does it look like too much? Not really, that much is what huge zergs need to be affected to actually get hurt by their numbers and fighting other big zergs wouldnt be a problem since both sides will be affected equally.
      Also i dont understand how the smart list works but it looks like it will only help when a zone reaches its population cap but it wont stop a 100 men zerg to face a 250 men coming to attack. The easiest way to handle this is just set the zones to not allow more than something like 100 players of the same alliance.
      IDK about the IP affect, If you took 900 IP from players that would make them have an avg of like 200 IP thats like wearing t1 gear lol, I don't think that would go over very well as I would think that a 50 man party around 1200IP could wipe a 200man zerg with 200IP pretty easy.
      In that case, going with 200 men wouldnt be a good idea right? Perhaps it could be -4 or -3 IP points per player and not 5 but the main idea is exactly this, to hurt the big zergs by their own zise to discourage the huge numbers.

      I doubt 50 men could wipe 200 anyways since the bigger zerg will be being reduced as players die along the fight and their players´ IP will be adjusted too.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Guilefulwolf ().

    • Guilefulwolf wrote:

      Neef wrote:

      Guilefulwolf wrote:

      MSSJ wrote:

      I think there's 1 thing that is getting neglected and that is spamming tanks is still effective with big numbers, since cc doesn't have negative scaling in any way. I think disarray should also affect cc duration and cc resist, since in the formerly calculated 160 Vs 80 fight if the 160 man zerg has 40 more tanks, they can chain cc indefinetly, or cc bigger chunks of enemy zerg, removing any chance for dps to deal dmg.

      TL:DR make disarray affect cc duration and maybe even cc resist.
      What disarray should affect is the effective items´ IP. That way everything would be nerfed; max HP, Max energy, HP and energy regeneration, armor, CC duration, CC resistance, Healing power etc.Something like -5 IP points per every player above 20 of the same alliance in the same map. I.E. 100 men sharing alliance would get -400 IP each and 200 men would get a -900 IP each. Does it look like too much? Not really, that much is what huge zergs need to be affected to actually get hurt by their numbers and fighting other big zergs wouldnt be a problem since both sides will be affected equally.Also i dont understand how the smart list works but it looks like it will only help when a zone reaches its population cap but it wont stop a 100 men zerg to face a 250 men coming to attack. The easiest way to handle this is just set the zones to not allow more than something like 100 players of the same alliance.
      IDK about the IP affect, If you took 900 IP from players that would make them have an avg of like 200 IP thats like wearing t1 gear lol, I don't think that would go over very well as I would think that a 50 man party around 1200IP could wipe a 200man zerg with 200IP pretty easy.
      In that case, going with 200 men wouldnt be a good idea right? Perhaps it could be -4 or -3 IP points per player and not 5 but the main idea is exactly this, to hurt the big zergs by their own zise to discourage the huge numbers.
      I doubt 50 men could wipe 200 anyways since the bigger zerg will be being reduced as players die along the fight and their players´ IP will be adjusted too.
      Yeah this is true in a way, But if you get a nice combo on the 200man zerg with them only having 200IP vs your 1200 IP i would think you would just delete them all, Its hard to say because we don't know forsure what would happen, But your right it could really keep the numbers down if it really hurt a lot bring 200 people to a fight. I am all for seeing more smaller fights happen. Like that 200 man group splits off into 4 50 man groups and they all fight different groups.