Disarray (Zerg Debuff)

    • Neef wrote:

      Guilefulwolf wrote:

      Neef wrote:

      Guilefulwolf wrote:

      MSSJ wrote:

      I think there's 1 thing that is getting neglected and that is spamming tanks is still effective with big numbers, since cc doesn't have negative scaling in any way. I think disarray should also affect cc duration and cc resist, since in the formerly calculated 160 Vs 80 fight if the 160 man zerg has 40 more tanks, they can chain cc indefinetly, or cc bigger chunks of enemy zerg, removing any chance for dps to deal dmg.

      TL:DR make disarray affect cc duration and maybe even cc resist.
      What disarray should affect is the effective items´ IP. That way everything would be nerfed; max HP, Max energy, HP and energy regeneration, armor, CC duration, CC resistance, Healing power etc.Something like -5 IP points per every player above 20 of the same alliance in the same map. I.E. 100 men sharing alliance would get -400 IP each and 200 men would get a -900 IP each. Does it look like too much? Not really, that much is what huge zergs need to be affected to actually get hurt by their numbers and fighting other big zergs wouldnt be a problem since both sides will be affected equally.Also i dont understand how the smart list works but it looks like it will only help when a zone reaches its population cap but it wont stop a 100 men zerg to face a 250 men coming to attack. The easiest way to handle this is just set the zones to not allow more than something like 100 players of the same alliance.
      IDK about the IP affect, If you took 900 IP from players that would make them have an avg of like 200 IP thats like wearing t1 gear lol, I don't think that would go over very well as I would think that a 50 man party around 1200IP could wipe a 200man zerg with 200IP pretty easy.
      In that case, going with 200 men wouldnt be a good idea right? Perhaps it could be -4 or -3 IP points per player and not 5 but the main idea is exactly this, to hurt the big zergs by their own zise to discourage the huge numbers.I doubt 50 men could wipe 200 anyways since the bigger zerg will be being reduced as players die along the fight and their players´ IP will be adjusted too.
      Yeah this is true in a way, But if you get a nice combo on the 200man zerg with them only having 200IP vs your 1200 IP i would think you would just delete them all, Its hard to say because we don't know forsure what would happen, But your right it could really keep the numbers down if it really hurt a lot bring 200 people to a fight. I am all for seeing more smaller fights happen. Like that 200 man group splits off into 4 50 man groups and they all fight different groups.
      5 IP is too much, 3 or 4 IP would be good imo.


      I doubt a 200 man zerg would come with 1200 IP though.
    • Ok so lets just look at this with math and ill explain why debuff doesnt work.

      No matter what value the debuff has as Team A kill Team B team B has lower debuff.

      So if Team A vs Team B is

      Y = number of players
      X = number of resources (potions, regears, and player focus)
      D = Disarray

      (YADA)XA < (YBDB)XB then as YB approaches YA; DB approaches DA This removes D from the equation. so long as YA and YB are the same,



      X however is still untouched, as X correlates to Y. number of players influences the resources, So long as YB begins higher XB will also be higher during the start of the fight but also by the time DY=DY because players burn resources as needed because there are more resources less % of players are using them at any given time on YB simply because the raw value is higher.

      It gets messy because of loot and compositions, but in general bringing more people means having more resources, this doesnt even include resources outside of combat. The largest alliance has the most $$$ as each player produces S silver. outside the fight having more silver means bringing better gear to the fight.

      Outside the fight having more players means having less red players, meaning getting ganked less simply by sheer odds, let alone that you can tell over 2000 players hey in this zone there are 10 people with good gear, boom the alliance takes their gear.

      The number of guilds in the alliance is directly correlated to # of hideouts in the alliance..
      this means a solo guild vs and alliance of 3 guilds, there is 3:1 support for the larger group as far as map positioning, and regear locations.
      Being able to stage troupes close to a fight = greater numbers which having a bigger alliance also already gives you.


      In general a debuff to alliances either needs to be comprehensive or simply a hard cap.

      options to change. may be used in any combination, more combinations stops more work arounds.
      1. Global Debuffs at 1/10th current debuff rate
      2. area debuffs, somehow make local clusters add to debuff, 300 in zone + 300/2 in the neighboring zone + 300/3 from players 2 zones away.
      3. Silver taxes, not reduction to earned silver, simply being in an alliance above X size creates a 1% silver tax per week.of your average total silver across the week, translating gold to silver to avoid abuse.
      4. Season Point split, for each guild create a drain along with the split. for 2 guilds 1 season point per 100 is lost to server, 3 guilds 2 season point per hundred.. n-1 essentially
      5. dismounting timer before attacking other players, per 1000 players in alliance 0.2 seconds added, really a fraction where X is greater than 301 (X0.2)/1000 so a 999 is not abused
      6. Each guild in an alliance reduces the number of hideouts a guild may have, such as 1 guild 6 hideouts, 2 guilds 5 hideouts each, 3 guilds 4 hideouts each, 4 guilds 3 hideouts each, 5 guilds 2 hideouts each, 6 guilds 1 hideout each - minimum number this creates a sweet spot of 3-4 guilds having the most benefit so solo and too large are both at disadvantages.
      7. Disarray stacks, being in zone with debuff creates stacks of disarray, these stacks form 1 per minute, and fall off per player 1 per minute, so if a zone has 300 from an alliance for 4 minutes, then 50% of them are killed, the debuff takes 4 minutes to fall off, only when it falls off does it recalculate to any lower number.
      25% for 4 stacks then 1 minute later the zone has moved to 30% the debuff would be 30% with 5 stacks, then you leave zone, 1 minute goes by 30% 4 stacks 1 minute goes by 30% 3 stack and so on, then when it reach 0 you are in a zone with a 10% debuff, so it begins stacking 10% 1 stack, 10% 2 stacks, and so on until you move to a zone with no debuff.
      At somepoint you could cap disarray stacks, but really its not that necessary if they fight 30 minutes at 25% then 30 minutes at disarray is just the price for those numbers.
    • Two fixes suggestion for disarray:
      • The debuff should linger for a while, even after the number of both parties are equal as the players die. The originally larger zerg should still be in disadvantage after their players start to die. Otherwise (as mentioned on posts above) it would always be better to start with a bigger zerg, because enemies will have to burn their cooldowns, pots etc while trying to bring down the larger zerg, therefore even if at somepoint the number of players are balanced (due to deaths), the originally larger zerg is still at advantage.
      • The debuff should also affect cooldowns. Longer cooldowns for the large zergs = less "clappage" = less incentive to zerg infinitely.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ThePottersky ().

    • With how some alliances try to avoid debuff by splitting into multiple different alliances, how would someone abuse the disarray debuff if it only applies guild-wise (Not based on the total amount of people from an alliance, but only on the amount of players from each guild)? Would this give alliances that do not abuse debuff have a better chance at fighting? Would there be a way to abuse this again in ZvZ?
    • grark247 wrote:

      but only on the amount of players from each guild)? Would this give alliances that do not abuse debuff have a better chance at fighting? Would there be a way to abuse this again in ZvZ?
      as someone who was in a successful solo guild, no, being solo would be no longer viable.


      What i would like to see is the inability to abuse, while in BZ no name tags except your guild members. so you cant recognize one another if not getting the debuff.

      also the debuff benefits larger alliances still, it should scale either greater with more players or equal X% per X player. Currently per player there is less debuff the more players you bring, idk the numbers off the top of my head but it works like this using fake numbers for easy math

      10 players 0% | 20 players 0% | 30 players 5% | 40 players 9% | 50 players 13% | 60 players 16% | 70 players 19% | 80 players 21% | 90 players 23% | 100 players 24%
      Again fake numbers but go look at it again this is how it works per player % goes down the bigger the group.
    • Stop the debuff system and guarantee an even number of players fighting in the map. I have posted in other thread but here we go again. Example:

      - Map capacity: 400 (I dont know it for real)
      Then if de map queue:
      - Team A defending and his allies will have always 200 slots in the map (extreme priority)
      - Team B attacking and his allies will have always 200 slots in the map (extreme priority)
      - Set some kind of CD for re-gearing people/reinforcements
      - All allies of attackers or defender would have to manifest interest of support and be approved by the main attacker or main defender.
      - Non related players to the fight cant enter the map while in queue.
      - Entering the map is for parties, the leaders of attacking and defending guilds/alliances will choose the way its queue is processed, like pure party IP or ranking the guilds involved. That will you always enter the map in a full party of 20 fighting man and will have a balanced fight.
      - Your entire zerg is swept you the other team will have like 30 seconds before your other 200 allies in queue can zone again.
      - Zoning should be doing in rounds like every 5 minutes or 10 minutes
    • - Making the whole blackzone outline circle full faction pvp zones.
      - Removing alliances, This way casual players can easly involve in bigger fights and get into the big world. If you know arch history why they have more then 10k players in a alliance then you will understand the decision.
      If you wanna capture a faction fight territory. Then beforehand you have to sign up as a solo player, small group or bigger zerg to get a defensive or attacking point. It will be more objective oriented gameplay. Forexp first you have to destroy something for disabling the defensive systems while the main zerg fighting over the territory. The attacker side will have 20% more then the defender. (100 vs 120). For larger number of participant this ratio will be remain the same After players death a new player will go to the battlefield. The attacker side gain a temporary tent in dat zone for a respawn point. There is no free loot. You just have to stand on the death for 10sec to secure it then after the fight is over it will be shared. This territories defensives can be leveled with high amount of resources and crafting focuse. It can be destroyed by the attackers. With the resource donations you gain dat percent of faction point what is generated. This territories will give some faction bonuses, if you have less terry then you gain fame buff and other bonuses for compensation(this faction still will be playable but higher risk more reward).
      - In the middle of the map will be remain full competitive guild vs guild zerg battles. Agains handholders the defender and the attacker side gain a 40% more damage and defense buff.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by NagyMedve ().

    • NagyMedve wrote:

      - Making the whole blackzone outline circle full faction pvp zones.
      - Removing alliances, This way casual players can easly involve in bigger fights and get into the big world. If you know arch history why they have more then 10k players in a alliance then you will understand the decision.
      If you wanna capture a faction fight territory. Then beforehand you have to sign up as a solo player, small group or bigger zerg to get a defensive or attacking point. It will be more objective oriented gameplay. Forexp first you have to destroy something for disabling the defensive systems while the main zerg fighting over the territory. The attacker side will have 20% more then the defender. (100 vs 120). For larger number of participant this ratio will be remain the same After players death a new player will go to the battlefield. The attacker side gain a temporary tent in dat zone for a respawn point. There is no free loot. You just have to stand on the death for 10sec to secure it then after the fight is over it will be shared. This territories defensives can be leveled with high amount of resources and crafting focuse. It can be destroyed by the attackers. With the resource donations you gain dat percent of faction point what is generated. This territories will give some faction bonuses, if you have less terry then you gain fame buff and other bonuses for compensation(this faction still will be playable but higher risk more reward).
      - In the middle of the map will be remain full competitive guild vs guild zerg battles. Agains handholders the defender and the attacker side gain a 40% more damage and defense buff.
      you do realize that arch had 15k people in 15 zones and that there are guilds/alliances with 600 people and 5+ zones. if you look at all the people holding zones youll notice that most of them are in 1k+ alliances and less , however shits done to abuse debuff and simply put if you got 150+ vets with good connections you can pretty much get like 5 zones and force smaller guilds to pay rent. arch has bunch of guilds in it cause u can have a 10 man guild and be in arch and even if you cant mass 100 people to defend a zone you can still play in the zone cause theres a bunch of guilds like yours that field 10+ people.
      casual players arent going to get involved in zvz cause it costs a lot of money for them without regears and people dont wanna regear them without spec, and spec requires a lot of farm and fighting with ppl who got more fame etc. than u
    • Askelad1691 wrote:

      Stop the debuff system and guarantee an even number of players fighting in the map. I have posted in other thread but here we go again. Example:

      - Map capacity: 400 (I dont know it for real)
      Then if de map queue:
      - Team A defending and his allies will have always 200 slots in the map (extreme priority)
      - Team B attacking and his allies will have always 200 slots in the map (extreme priority)
      - Set some kind of CD for re-gearing people/reinforcements
      - All allies of attackers or defender would have to manifest interest of support and be approved by the main attacker or main defender.
      - Non related players to the fight cant enter the map while in queue.
      - Entering the map is for parties, the leaders of attacking and defending guilds/alliances will choose the way its queue is processed, like pure party IP or ranking the guilds involved. That will you always enter the map in a full party of 20 fighting man and will have a balanced fight.
      - Your entire zerg is swept you the other team will have like 30 seconds before your other 200 allies in queue can zone again.
      - Zoning should be doing in rounds like every 5 minutes or 10 minutes
      I pay for my premium status. Why should my priority of entering a zone to fame farm be set lower to people participating in ZvZ? Why should I get kicked out of zone and placed into an enemy blob? This doesn't make sense...
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    • yiconomics wrote:

      Askelad1691 wrote:

      Stop the debuff system and guarantee an even number of players fighting in the map. I have posted in other thread but here we go again. Example:

      - Map capacity: 400 (I dont know it for real)
      Then if de map queue:
      - Team A defending and his allies will have always 200 slots in the map (extreme priority)
      - Team B attacking and his allies will have always 200 slots in the map (extreme priority)
      - Set some kind of CD for re-gearing people/reinforcements
      - All allies of attackers or defender would have to manifest interest of support and be approved by the main attacker or main defender.
      - Non related players to the fight cant enter the map while in queue.
      - Entering the map is for parties, the leaders of attacking and defending guilds/alliances will choose the way its queue is processed, like pure party IP or ranking the guilds involved. That will you always enter the map in a full party of 20 fighting man and will have a balanced fight.
      - Your entire zerg is swept you the other team will have like 30 seconds before your other 200 allies in queue can zone again.
      - Zoning should be doing in rounds like every 5 minutes or 10 minutes
      I pay for my premium status. Why should my priority of entering a zone to fame farm be set lower to people participating in ZvZ? Why should I get kicked out of zone and placed into an enemy blob? This doesn't make sense...
      It doesn't make sense through the perspective that we all have the same rights to play the game. Although it would be a good way to garantee that people who where inside the battle zone to be ported out safely, also it is a way to prevent people ratting combat loot that aren't even involved in the fight, making fights even more interesting and fun for people if they don't have to worry that someone else will rat their stuff after the fights. I agree with your point yiconomics but there are good reasons to try and balance how big battles in open zones work
    • Why hasnt there been more discussion on the effects of adding timezones and eliminating territories from the royals has had on all of this?

      If there were, for example, 2 less active time zone frames, then there would technically be more simultaneous battles which would force zergs to pick and choose their battles more? More battles at the same time could hypothetically lead big zergs to divide and conquer, forcing more but smaller fights to occur. As it stands right now, theres at most 1-2 battles during a timezone in the BZs so EVERYONE goes to those zones to either fight/bomb/rat, leading to cluster que and disarray problems.

      Also, returning territories to the Royals would also spread those options even more.

      I think if you merge 12 and 15 utc into 13 or 14 UTC and then merge 3 and 5 utc into 4 UTC, you can probably accomplish this.

      Another option I've discussed before is the idea that disarray has clearly not accomplished what it was set out to do, and that getting rid of it altogether is a better solution than keeping it because of how horrible it has made ZvZ in the first place.

      If the goal is to limit zerg size, then create a dynamic cluster que system for individual guilds involved in territory battles such as: they may only zone in a total of say, 60 players in a zone. If they have an alliance guild in the zone that reaches the cap, both of their caps are lowered to 50 and 10 players are cluster qued out for each guild.
      the limit for guilds/alliances however that are not involved in the territory battle are cutnin half. So they have a cap of 30 players that goes down to 20 if they alsonhave an alliance guild in the zone that reaches 30.
      These are just hypothetical numbers but I think you get the point.
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