Disarray (Zerg Debuff)

    • Neef wrote:

      Guilefulwolf wrote:

      Neef wrote:

      Guilefulwolf wrote:

      MSSJ wrote:

      I think there's 1 thing that is getting neglected and that is spamming tanks is still effective with big numbers, since cc doesn't have negative scaling in any way. I think disarray should also affect cc duration and cc resist, since in the formerly calculated 160 Vs 80 fight if the 160 man zerg has 40 more tanks, they can chain cc indefinetly, or cc bigger chunks of enemy zerg, removing any chance for dps to deal dmg.

      TL:DR make disarray affect cc duration and maybe even cc resist.
      What disarray should affect is the effective items´ IP. That way everything would be nerfed; max HP, Max energy, HP and energy regeneration, armor, CC duration, CC resistance, Healing power etc.Something like -5 IP points per every player above 20 of the same alliance in the same map. I.E. 100 men sharing alliance would get -400 IP each and 200 men would get a -900 IP each. Does it look like too much? Not really, that much is what huge zergs need to be affected to actually get hurt by their numbers and fighting other big zergs wouldnt be a problem since both sides will be affected equally.Also i dont understand how the smart list works but it looks like it will only help when a zone reaches its population cap but it wont stop a 100 men zerg to face a 250 men coming to attack. The easiest way to handle this is just set the zones to not allow more than something like 100 players of the same alliance.
      IDK about the IP affect, If you took 900 IP from players that would make them have an avg of like 200 IP thats like wearing t1 gear lol, I don't think that would go over very well as I would think that a 50 man party around 1200IP could wipe a 200man zerg with 200IP pretty easy.
      In that case, going with 200 men wouldnt be a good idea right? Perhaps it could be -4 or -3 IP points per player and not 5 but the main idea is exactly this, to hurt the big zergs by their own zise to discourage the huge numbers.I doubt 50 men could wipe 200 anyways since the bigger zerg will be being reduced as players die along the fight and their players´ IP will be adjusted too.
      Yeah this is true in a way, But if you get a nice combo on the 200man zerg with them only having 200IP vs your 1200 IP i would think you would just delete them all, Its hard to say because we don't know forsure what would happen, But your right it could really keep the numbers down if it really hurt a lot bring 200 people to a fight. I am all for seeing more smaller fights happen. Like that 200 man group splits off into 4 50 man groups and they all fight different groups.
      5 IP is too much, 3 or 4 IP would be good imo.

      I doubt a 200 man zerg would come with 1200 IP though.
    • Ok so lets just look at this with math and ill explain why debuff doesnt work.

      No matter what value the debuff has as Team A kill Team B team B has lower debuff.

      So if Team A vs Team B is

      Y = number of players
      X = number of resources (potions, regears, and player focus)
      D = Disarray

      (YADA)XA < (YBDB)XB then as YB approaches YA; DB approaches DA This removes D from the equation. so long as YA and YB are the same,

      X however is still untouched, as X correlates to Y. number of players influences the resources, So long as YB begins higher XB will also be higher during the start of the fight but also by the time DY=DY because players burn resources as needed because there are more resources less % of players are using them at any given time on YB simply because the raw value is higher.

      It gets messy because of loot and compositions, but in general bringing more people means having more resources, this doesnt even include resources outside of combat. The largest alliance has the most $$$ as each player produces S silver. outside the fight having more silver means bringing better gear to the fight.

      Outside the fight having more players means having less red players, meaning getting ganked less simply by sheer odds, let alone that you can tell over 2000 players hey in this zone there are 10 people with good gear, boom the alliance takes their gear.

      The number of guilds in the alliance is directly correlated to # of hideouts in the alliance..
      this means a solo guild vs and alliance of 3 guilds, there is 3:1 support for the larger group as far as map positioning, and regear locations.
      Being able to stage troupes close to a fight = greater numbers which having a bigger alliance also already gives you.

      In general a debuff to alliances either needs to be comprehensive or simply a hard cap.

      options to change. may be used in any combination, more combinations stops more work arounds.
      1. Global Debuffs at 1/10th current debuff rate
      2. area debuffs, somehow make local clusters add to debuff, 300 in zone + 300/2 in the neighboring zone + 300/3 from players 2 zones away.
      3. Silver taxes, not reduction to earned silver, simply being in an alliance above X size creates a 1% silver tax per week.of your average total silver across the week, translating gold to silver to avoid abuse.
      4. Season Point split, for each guild create a drain along with the split. for 2 guilds 1 season point per 100 is lost to server, 3 guilds 2 season point per hundred.. n-1 essentially
      5. dismounting timer before attacking other players, per 1000 players in alliance 0.2 seconds added, really a fraction where X is greater than 301 (X0.2)/1000 so a 999 is not abused
      6. Each guild in an alliance reduces the number of hideouts a guild may have, such as 1 guild 6 hideouts, 2 guilds 5 hideouts each, 3 guilds 4 hideouts each, 4 guilds 3 hideouts each, 5 guilds 2 hideouts each, 6 guilds 1 hideout each - minimum number this creates a sweet spot of 3-4 guilds having the most benefit so solo and too large are both at disadvantages.
      7. Disarray stacks, being in zone with debuff creates stacks of disarray, these stacks form 1 per minute, and fall off per player 1 per minute, so if a zone has 300 from an alliance for 4 minutes, then 50% of them are killed, the debuff takes 4 minutes to fall off, only when it falls off does it recalculate to any lower number.
      25% for 4 stacks then 1 minute later the zone has moved to 30% the debuff would be 30% with 5 stacks, then you leave zone, 1 minute goes by 30% 4 stacks 1 minute goes by 30% 3 stack and so on, then when it reach 0 you are in a zone with a 10% debuff, so it begins stacking 10% 1 stack, 10% 2 stacks, and so on until you move to a zone with no debuff.
      At somepoint you could cap disarray stacks, but really its not that necessary if they fight 30 minutes at 25% then 30 minutes at disarray is just the price for those numbers.
    • Two fixes suggestion for disarray:
      • The debuff should linger for a while, even after the number of both parties are equal as the players die. The originally larger zerg should still be in disadvantage after their players start to die. Otherwise (as mentioned on posts above) it would always be better to start with a bigger zerg, because enemies will have to burn their cooldowns, pots etc while trying to bring down the larger zerg, therefore even if at somepoint the number of players are balanced (due to deaths), the originally larger zerg is still at advantage.
      • The debuff should also affect cooldowns. Longer cooldowns for the large zergs = less "clappage" = less incentive to zerg infinitely.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ThePottersky ().

    • With how some alliances try to avoid debuff by splitting into multiple different alliances, how would someone abuse the disarray debuff if it only applies guild-wise (Not based on the total amount of people from an alliance, but only on the amount of players from each guild)? Would this give alliances that do not abuse debuff have a better chance at fighting? Would there be a way to abuse this again in ZvZ?
    • grark247 wrote:

      but only on the amount of players from each guild)? Would this give alliances that do not abuse debuff have a better chance at fighting? Would there be a way to abuse this again in ZvZ?
      as someone who was in a successful solo guild, no, being solo would be no longer viable.

      What i would like to see is the inability to abuse, while in BZ no name tags except your guild members. so you cant recognize one another if not getting the debuff.

      also the debuff benefits larger alliances still, it should scale either greater with more players or equal X% per X player. Currently per player there is less debuff the more players you bring, idk the numbers off the top of my head but it works like this using fake numbers for easy math

      10 players 0% | 20 players 0% | 30 players 5% | 40 players 9% | 50 players 13% | 60 players 16% | 70 players 19% | 80 players 21% | 90 players 23% | 100 players 24%
      Again fake numbers but go look at it again this is how it works per player % goes down the bigger the group.