With the upcoming Queen's update, I think all of the weapon tree line should have viable options for ZVZ and 5v5

    • With the upcoming Queen's update, I think all of the weapon tree line should have viable options for ZVZ and 5v5

      In the video, the Devs talked specifically about implementing and improving ZVZ and 5v5 gameplay in the world, which means that the gameplay would be focused on these types of fight after the update. In the current state of the game, most weapon lines are actually well represented. But there are still some weapon lines that are in desperate need of a rework or buff in order to efficiently participate in them. One example is the Spear line can't really participate in ZVZ without getting reported, kicked out of the alliance, or fined silver. Another one is the Dagger line that doesn't really have a ZVZ option, except for maybe a skilled blood letter. I would say Axe line is also a bit under powered for ZVZ, too. Because of this, I think weapons should be buffed or reworked for them to be able to participate in the future.

      Just a note that I think every weapon line should have a ZVZ weapon since the Devs already emphasized that it's the method of territorial acquisition and control. If so, then a player shouldn't be punished or forced to play another weapon line in order to participate in them. There are 6 types of weapon you can choose from each weapon line, I don't think it's far fetched to suggest that one of them is designed for ZVZ. As for 5v5, I'm not an experienced GVG'er so I'm not going to make random assumptions on which weapons are under-represented.

      And a further note, I'm not trying to debate that Spears, Daggers, and Axes can't ZVZ, I'm just suggesting that since the Devs talked how ZVZ is going to be a core part of territorial control, each weapon line should have a ZVZ weapon to participate with. I'm well aware the Meta might change, but I hope that the Meta changes in a way that doesn't faze out other weapons in favor of specific ones, but rather accommodates them all. That way each fight is more interesting and diverse.
    • omeet wrote:

      I would say Axe line is also a bit under powered for ZVZ
      lolno.
      Have you heard of our lord and savior the Halberd?
      Daggers could use a zvz buff imo. I think it would be kinda cool (although I can't say if it would be balanced) if daggers got a passive/ability that did more damage depending on the number of enemies in proximity, so in a 5v5 it wouldn't be great but in a 50v50 you could assassinate the shotcaller.
    • omeet wrote:

      In the video, the Devs talked specifically about implementing and improving ZVZ and 5v5 gameplay in the world, which means that the gameplay would be focused on these types of fight after the update. In the current state of the game, most weapon lines are actually well represented. But there are still some weapon lines that are in desperate need of a rework or buff in order to efficiently participate in them. One example is the Spear line can't really participate in ZVZ without getting reported, kicked out of the alliance, or fined silver. Another one is the Dagger line that doesn't really have a ZVZ option, except for maybe a skilled blood letter. I would say Axe line is also a bit under powered for ZVZ, too. Because of this, I think weapons should be buffed or reworked for them to be able to participate in the future.

      Just a note that I think every weapon line should have a ZVZ weapon since the Devs already emphasized that it's the method of territorial acquisition and control. If so, then a player shouldn't be punished or forced to play another weapon line in order to participate in them. There are 6 types of weapon you can choose from each weapon line, I don't think it's far fetched to suggest that one of them is designed for ZVZ. As for 5v5, I'm not an experienced GVG'er so I'm not going to make random assumptions on which weapons are under-represented.

      And a further note, I'm not trying to debate that Spears, Daggers, and Axes can't ZVZ, I'm just suggesting that since the Devs talked how ZVZ is going to be a core part of territorial control, each weapon line should have a ZVZ weapon to participate with. I'm well aware the Meta might change, but I hope that the Meta changes in a way that doesn't faze out other weapons in favor of specific ones, but rather accommodates them all. That way each fight is more interesting and diverse.
      Heron Spear is amazing for ZVZ, but you gotta be real careful if your using Impale. If you get close enough to a zerg to use impale, you are most likely getting CLAPPED! Still, you can wreak havoc in a 20v20 with some well placed Heron Spears!

      Axes have numerous builds that work in a ZVZ, I've seen some nasty ones.

      Daggers, not great in ZVZ, but with a proper build you can penetrate the back line and whack a healer. I wouldn't recommend daggers for ZVZ, but I've seen it happen before.
    • Bloodletter is fun in zvz. Not sure how good in 200v200 but in 20v20 it leads to many kills if you have good spec and you know what you are doing. So far all weapons have utility in ZvZ imo. Axe is good as mentioned before, spear also. I think we dont see them so much is because there are better builds, but that does not mean they are useless. We will see next season when the focus will go to 25v25 fights how it changes the meta and if bruisers come to zvz meta or not.
    • The whole point of my post is to say that there are weapon lines that have under powered ZVZ options, if any at all. I literally said in the post that I'm not trying to debate whether they are viable or not. I'M SAYING THEY'RE UNDERPOWERED. YES you can play blood letter, halberd, but they're better options. That statement itself implies that either axe,dagger, and spears are under powered, or that other weapon lines are overpowered. If you think that a halberd, blood letter, or a spear weapon is as good or better than siegebows, Galatine, and other arguably more impactful ZVZ weapons, then do so. That's the point of this post. I personally believe that they're significantly weaker, you can make me think otherwise.

      Which is what I wrote in the original post : "in the current state of the game, most weapon lines are actually well represented."

      Fred_the_Barbarian wrote:

      omeet wrote:

      I would say Axe line is also a bit under powered for ZVZ
      lolno.Have you heard of our lord and savior the Halberd?
      Daggers could use a zvz buff imo. I think it would be kinda cool (although I can't say if it would be balanced) if daggers got a passive/ability that did more damage depending on the number of enemies in proximity, so in a 5v5 it wouldn't be great but in a 50v50 you could assassinate the shotcaller.
      Yeah I use halberd... But compared to galatine, siege bow, and other more ZVZ focused weapons it feels under powered. But halberd is definitely good enough for ZVZ, there's no doubt about that

      JonnnyBones wrote:

      Heron Spear is amazing for ZVZ, but you gotta be real careful if your using Impale. If you get close enough to a zerg to use impale, you are most likely getting CLAPPED! Still, you can wreak havoc in a 20v20 with some well placed Heron Spears!
      Axes have numerous builds that work in a ZVZ, I've seen some nasty ones.

      Daggers, not great in ZVZ, but with a proper build you can penetrate the back line and whack a healer. I wouldn't recommend daggers for ZVZ, but I've seen it happen before.
      Nice to hear that, saw some of your videos one shotting people. You're more experienced with spears so I guess that there are viable options, but then why don't most alliances allow that option? Not trying to refute you but I do feel that spears are underpowered for ZVZ. BTW keep pumping those videos!

      Argustin wrote:

      Bloodletter is fun in zvz. Not sure how good in 200v200 but in 20v20 it leads to many kills if you have good spec and you know what you are doing. So far all weapons have utility in ZvZ imo. Axe is good as mentioned before, spear also. I think we dont see them so much is because there are better builds, but that does not mean they are useless. We will see next season when the focus will go to 25v25 fights how it changes the meta and if bruisers come to zvz meta or not.
      Yeah that's what I pointed out in my original post. Most weapon lines have a viable option but that doesn't mean that they're "balanced". A shot caller doesn't want 20 blood letters, He would want 20 siege bows. I would say the same goes for halberd, but that is debatable. Not sure if they will gain more relevance even if its small scale, but we'll have to wait and see

      LordZetta wrote:

      Trust me, as a spear user myself, i wanted them to be at least decent in ZvZ so i could have fun with my favorite weapon. Not sure a buff or new weapon will be needed though, ZvZ might turn into small scale battles if everything goes right with the next update, which should make spears viable in the end.
      Well, there's still 4 months until January, so ZVZ won't change much, but I'm also skeptical of ZVZ turning into small scale battles after that. I think its just better to make sure there's equally strong ZVZ options for all weapon lines.

      gmatagmis wrote:

      Bloodletter, Halberd.
      Yes, that is what I wrote in the original post. Your point is? To clarify, I said they were viable, but under powered.
    • omeet wrote:

      Yeah that's what I pointed out in my original post. Most weapon lines have a viable option but that doesn't mean that they're "balanced". A shot caller doesn't want 20 blood letters, He would want 20 siege bows. I would say the same goes for halberd, but that is debatable. Not sure if they will gain more relevance even if its small scale, but we'll have to wait and see
      I don't think a shot caller would want 20 siege bows in a 25 vs 25 fight. So its all size relative. Also - Halberd is a non-artifact weapon, of course it would (and should) be weaker then a Relic (highest class and highest price) weapon like Galatines or Siege Bow.

      omeet wrote:

      Well, there's still 4 months until January, so ZVZ won't change much, but I'm also skeptical of ZVZ turning into small scale battles after that. I think its just better to make sure there's equally strong ZVZ options for all weapon lines.
      We dont have to wait 4 month. There are rumors that "zerg debuff" mechanic will be released much earlier... like... during season8. So hopefully we can see proper 25 vs 25 fights soon.
    • Owlsane wrote:

      If the current debuff zerg concept is the one that i've saw leaked i don't remember where then i'm afraid to tell you that it will have little to no difference on zergs.
      1) Not sure which version of the "leak" you've seen, but its been modified ever since. We shall see how it all plays out
      2) Even in case that what you say its true - Season 8 will prove that Zerg Debuff will need to be buffed (made stronger) and that is exactly why they are testing it now, ahead of the new Queen update when ZvZ will become a much bigger focus (if not main focus) of the game. That gives DEVs enough time to "beta test" the system and make necessary adjustments. The timing is perfect!
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      I don't think a shot caller would want 20 siege bows in a 25 vs 25 fight. So its all size relative.
      My point was that a shot caller would prefer siege bows over say a blood better. But your point still stands, size matters.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      Also - Halberd is a non-artifact weapon, of course it would (and should) be weaker then a Relic (highest class and highest price) weapon like Galatines or Siege Bow.We dont have to wait 4 month. There are rumors that "zerg debuff" mechanic will be released much earlier... like... during season8. So hopefully we can see proper 25 vs 25 fights soon.

      Yeah Halberd is a non-artifact weapon, but the state of axe's in general make it so that halberd is a better ZVZ weapon than the other artifact axe's. If relics should be stronger, than I suppose relic weapons of axe line should be buffed? But then there's the problem of whether they should purposely make relic weapons into ZVZ weapons, which could be a solution to my point that these weapon lines have under powered ZVZ weapons


      Captainrussia wrote:

      We dont have to wait 4 month. There are rumors that "zerg debuff" mechanic will be released much earlier... like... during season8. So hopefully we can see proper 25 vs 25 fights soon.
      Hmm, if your right then my post is practically pointless XD. But in the interest of 25vs25 fights not happening with either the release of the "Zerg debuff" or not, I hope that these weapons lines can receive some necessary buffs.
    • omeet wrote:

      Yeah Halberd is a non-artifact weapon, but the state of axe's in general make it so that halberd is a better ZVZ weapon than the other artifact axe's.
      Is it really "better" tho? Its the cheapest and the most "no brainer" one to use - sure. But I think both Infernal Scythe and Bear Paws can deliver much more damage to a clumped group... they just both are more expensive and take more skill to use. Also the only advantage of Halberd is that the E is "instant", while both Bear Paws and Infernal Sythe have a DOT component to it. I think we see halberd being used the most in ZvZ because people prefer 0 skill weapons.

      omeet wrote:

      If relics should be stronger, than I suppose relic weapons of axe line should be buffed? But then there's the problem of whether they should purposely make relic weapons into ZVZ weapons, which could be a solution to my point that these weapon lines have under powered ZVZ weapons
      We can make a separate post debating that. Not sure if you've noticed - but like 90% of relic weapons are kind of meant for zvz (or at least have very glaring bonuses helping damage multiple players), with the only exception being the Deathgivers.
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      Is it really "better" tho? Its the cheapest and the most "no brainer" one to use - sure. But I think both Infernal Scythe and Bear Paws can deliver much more damage to a clumped group... they just both are more expensive and take more skill to use. Also the only advantage of Halberd is that the E is "instant", while both Bear Paws and Infernal Sythe have a DOT component to it. I think we see halberd being used the most in ZvZ because people prefer 0 skill weapons.
      Good point, but then there are other relic weapons that are arguably more "no brainer" like siegebow, wailing bow, where the skill component is waiting for the engage, or camping the choke points. It wouldn't make sense that Infernal scythe or Bear paws have to require much more skill to pull equal results. Furthermore, I would say that halberds put themselves at much more risk than these back line weapons because they have to be near the enemy to deal damage; therefor, there is an extra skill component for halberd users to survive whilst dealing damage. However, I disagree that people don't use infernal scythe or bear paws because they require more skill to use, which they do, but rather they are much, MUCH less consistent than the damage halberd provides. Not only is halberd's E instant, but it has larger area of affect than Infernal Scythe, meaning that Halberd is more likely to damage more people. And sure, Bear Paws can position to jump in to hit everyone, but why do that when Galatines can use mage sandals to hit a wider range (with more damage), or ranged weapons like siegebow or wailing bow can do that at a safe distance and achieve the same results. If these weapons require more skill to use, they should be more impact than weapons that don't put themselves in as much risk.


      Captainrussia wrote:

      We can make a separate post debating that. Not sure if you've noticed - but like 90% of relic weapons are kind of meant for zvz (or at least have very glaring bonuses helping damage multiple players), with the only exception being the Deathgivers.
      I don't think 90% of the relic weapons are meant for ZVZ, but if so, some weapon lines don't even have a ZVZ relic option.
    • omeet wrote:

      The whole point of my post is to say that there are weapon lines that have under powered ZVZ options, if any at all. I literally said in the post that I'm not trying to debate whether they are viable or not. I'M SAYING THEY'RE UNDERPOWERED. YES you can play blood letter, halberd, but they're better options. That statement itself implies that either axe,dagger, and spears are under powered, or that other weapon lines are overpowered. If you think that a halberd, blood letter, or a spear weapon is as good or better than siegebows, Galatine, and other arguably more impactful ZVZ weapons, then do so. That's the point of this post. I personally believe that they're significantly weaker, you can make me think otherwise.

      Which is what I wrote in the original post : "in the current state of the game, most weapon lines are actually well represented."

      Fred_the_Barbarian wrote:

      omeet wrote:

      I would say Axe line is also a bit under powered for ZVZ
      lolno.Have you heard of our lord and savior the Halberd?Daggers could use a zvz buff imo. I think it would be kinda cool (although I can't say if it would be balanced) if daggers got a passive/ability that did more damage depending on the number of enemies in proximity, so in a 5v5 it wouldn't be great but in a 50v50 you could assassinate the shotcaller.
      Yeah I use halberd... But compared to galatine, siege bow, and other more ZVZ focused weapons it feels under powered. But halberd is definitely good enough for ZVZ, there's no doubt about that

      JonnnyBones wrote:

      Heron Spear is amazing for ZVZ, but you gotta be real careful if your using Impale. If you get close enough to a zerg to use impale, you are most likely getting CLAPPED! Still, you can wreak havoc in a 20v20 with some well placed Heron Spears!
      Axes have numerous builds that work in a ZVZ, I've seen some nasty ones.

      Daggers, not great in ZVZ, but with a proper build you can penetrate the back line and whack a healer. I wouldn't recommend daggers for ZVZ, but I've seen it happen before.
      Nice to hear that, saw some of your videos one shotting people. You're more experienced with spears so I guess that there are viable options, but then why don't most alliances allow that option? Not trying to refute you but I do feel that spears are underpowered for ZVZ. BTW keep pumping those videos!

      Argustin wrote:

      Bloodletter is fun in zvz. Not sure how good in 200v200 but in 20v20 it leads to many kills if you have good spec and you know what you are doing. So far all weapons have utility in ZvZ imo. Axe is good as mentioned before, spear also. I think we dont see them so much is because there are better builds, but that does not mean they are useless. We will see next season when the focus will go to 25v25 fights how it changes the meta and if bruisers come to zvz meta or not.
      Yeah that's what I pointed out in my original post. Most weapon lines have a viable option but that doesn't mean that they're "balanced". A shot caller doesn't want 20 blood letters, He would want 20 siege bows. I would say the same goes for halberd, but that is debatable. Not sure if they will gain more relevance even if its small scale, but we'll have to wait and see

      LordZetta wrote:

      Trust me, as a spear user myself, i wanted them to be at least decent in ZvZ so i could have fun with my favorite weapon. Not sure a buff or new weapon will be needed though, ZvZ might turn into small scale battles if everything goes right with the next update, which should make spears viable in the end.
      Well, there's still 4 months until January, so ZVZ won't change much, but I'm also skeptical of ZVZ turning into small scale battles after that. I think its just better to make sure there's equally strong ZVZ options for all weapon lines.

      gmatagmis wrote:

      Bloodletter, Halberd.
      Yes, that is what I wrote in the original post. Your point is? To clarify, I said they were viable, but under powered.
      No shotcaller wants too many of the same thing. You need brims, siegebows and frost. You need galas, you need tanks, you need healers, you need locus. And to buff single target weapon like bloodletter to compete with a siegebow in zvz grounds is stupid as it will win a 1v1 easy. Not all weapons are and should be aoe weapons and as long there is zvz you want aoe. What everyone is saying here is that THEY ARE VIABLE. No need to change them more viable in zvz because this will break those weapons in every other situation than Zvz.