For Albion to survive, economy inflation needs to be managed

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    • For Albion to survive, economy inflation needs to be managed

      New

      Hi there fellawz, to all those who cherish games like this, or develop them.
      I'm sorry for what I'm about to do , which is to introduce my self first, instead of doing that in the new player section, and then starting the thread here, but the problem is that my background is the key to my knowledge about games like this, and will serve as a measurement of a sort for certain people , and might spark further discussion.

      My name is Nick, and I'm what people call a sandbox veteran. A gwampa :) I've played Ultima Online , Tibia, Runescape, EVE Online, Mortal Online, and some other less notable full loot games, dough the list isn't actually big mainly because it takes at least a few years of play to enjoy games like these, since it is another world, another life, with it's heavyness and impact to real life time , since you can't play them "a little " . It's a game-life-span of about 22 years of play , of which 85 % of times i was playing these games, going into, and going back out of, switching them as patches and fixes came, trying to hold on to the same old story, that things will go back to normal, yet they never do.There is a narrative to all this, it's a same story, over and over again, and no matter which game it is, it still is present, the virtual combo of how several little unrelated things combined create a downfall. I'm not here to scare anyone, or push any ending of anything, if anything, I'm trying to save this game, while this being the first time ill openly attempt to do so, for any full loot sandbox game. I didn't do anything for Mortal Online, and now I'm sorry for not even trying, so i won't make the same mistake again.

      Namely, I'll try to recreate the scenario, in short words, to explain the situation.

      The origin of full loot, and sandbox is one and the same, depth and meaning of an item that can be lost, combined with player driven and built content and in game player driven/controlled currency make up the foundation of virtual reality. It's what everyone who plays games like this wants, but probably doesn't even realize it. Or it's just the part about freedom to express them selves, and this offers full freedom in some ways, and can even show the reality of good and evil ratio among players, because anything illegal in real life, is probably legal in the game. Murder and Sadism are the 2 most famous that i know of. Grief in general also.

      The important part is, that not everyone has the stomach for these games, and the player base of each game like this one has a problem at one point, no matter how good the marketing on it is, the new player base starts to drop. Everything changes from then on. Or so it seems. The reality is, the new player base drops because of deeds people do in game, and the power of a player is sometimes bigger then the power of a developer, since no good smile or bonus golden egg on start will replace the feeling of loosing stuff in the YZ/RZ/BZ if toxicity in those areas exceeds certain levels, it becomes too toxic for a regular Joe, they will quit playing, and the company looses a lot of money, because they are the ones paying for the game, since they don't have an economy to support their premium with silver. At the same time, changes happen with taxes developers add, to crush the crafter , to crush the market a bit, and control the economy of the game, mainly the inflation of the in game currency, in this case silver. The inflation of silver is never ending, for as long as you allow wealth generators, passive wealth generators, of any kind, and follow the same path as every other company that does this, it will fail. Inflation builds more inflation, since the virtual currency of the game has all the properties of an actual one, and all it's weight, so it follows the same basic real life rule, of how inflation is generated, and also, by cutting the cherry on the top that you do buy being a portion of the in game resource by selling people gold that they can sell for silver, creates even more debt.......sorry, inflation. All that combined creates an expensive, toxic environment for a new player that they cant stand from start, so the next wave of people dropping and new player dropping after first 48 hours of play starts to happen.

      The third wave is a fight to the last man standing between good and evil, player base that remains in the game connected mostly to their possessions, a lot more than to the people around them, and who ever wins, gets to either kill the game , or continue it into a new yet unseen future, I'm yet to see. This is where we get to the story about my involvement into a game called Mortal Online and how it ended....

      In simple words, it was a drag, that lasted over 13 years, of which, 10 years were the span of 3 world-in-game wars, between 2 sides of the game. 50 % of the players in the game were in an alliance that just barely got to that percent, maybe even less than 50 %, and the other 50 % was only 1 guild, ......only 1. An archaic random player killing guild/alliance called RPK. All 3 times, the alliance(the good side) lost the wars, lost their territory, and got into a situation where the ganker that's just outside the city can't be done nothing about, since it's a lost battle ,......lost cause, so they give up. In that very moment, the power of a player exceeds the power of a developer, as a result of a large scale multi year life-span battle, is that the evil and grief wins, and the game dies that very same day with it.
      It also means, that the game needs at least a bit of good, a spark of hope, something to try to get to the balance of good and evil, or close to it. Otherwise , sadism and grief kills the game like this, when combined with the troubles you make with the economy and in game currency.

      The only people i found that manage this are CCP, but it takes a lot of effort to maintain that, and the whole country of Island is helping them, and even so.....price of 30day premium are up over 1000% in ISK....anyone remember Asakai ? and the last defence of Cal state against Gals ? The invisible end of faction warfare, which "didn't happen" since it wasn't planned, which destroys freedom in a sandbox where they should've made history from that instead of dissing it, no point in being all that if they can't sync historical moments in the game with it's official history, since players write it anyways.


      In all of that, i was always in a position of a "wonna be paladin" . The kind of person that wanted the good side to win, and the kind of person that understood that it's the only way to keep the game going. Any of them. They all kinda have/had the same destiny. Having said that, i was actually making a base to ask you a favor.

      Can you NOT make the same mistake as others ? and destroy the economy of the game, the control of inflation, the last bastion of the new player base that you need, constantly, since you already passively supported grief by giving players with ganker mindset access to the Capitol and Mercia, namely the T8 zones, the best materials and such( i know you thought they are your base of players that wont pay much in cash but will certainly keep the game live). Could you also not trample over the date of the end of season and beginning of the new one, with the new big patch date?, which will move things anyway by changing the entire world map.


      Most importantly the changes to fees will kill your player base additionally, not fix your inflation problem. You can see it by the prices of low tier items, which are dropping, to rock bottom, and price of gold, and it's changes, which will go back to regular after a spike.



      With respect, JunkyMoo, aka FunkieMoo D, a SQUID(EVE), and an officer of the southern alliance of Bakti and SilverSkull Alliance(MO).
    • New

      5/10
      You've written lots of paragraphs, but whats the TLDR?

      1) You titled the thread "history" - yet provided no historical analysis why some games (like MO) failed and why some games (like Eve) - are successful. To start - I'll give you some examples:
      I've played MO for a bit as well, and I really loved the idea and depth of it, but it was hugely underfunded, hugely underpopulated (because there was very little funding for marketing) and hugely under-developed. It felt like it never left alpha stage. Both Eve and Albion are way past those hurdles.

      2) Where do you think Albion stands? (I personally think if it follows the design decisions of EVE - it will be very successful) but you have to elaborate here

      3) Out of all that wall of text - your only "ask" 2 questions for DEVs: a) Do not make mistake as others (but you do not explain or provide analysis of what that mistake is) b) Do not destroy economy (which they are actually fixing by introducing silver sinks)

      So you've written a lot... but Im failing to see your message... you're comparing different games (or different DEV studios rather) and not really providing any good arguments. Please elaborate a bit further on the things that you think are the issues?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Captainrussia ().

    • New

      Captainrussia wrote:

      5/10
      You've written lots of paragraphs, but whats the TLDR?

      1) You titled the thread "history" - yet provided no historical analysis why some games (like MO) failed and why some games (like Eve) - are successful. To start - I'll give you some examples:
      I've played MO for a bit as well, and I really loved the idea and depth of it, but it was hugely underfunded, hugely underpopulated (because there was very little funding for marketing) and hugely under-developed. It felt like it never left alpha stage. Both Eve and Albion are way past those hurdles.

      2) Where do you think Albion stands? (I personally think if it follows the design decisions of EVE - it will be very successful) but you have to elaborate here

      3) Out of all that wall of text - your only "ask" 2 questions for DEVs: a) Do not make mistake as others (but you do not explain or provide analysis of what that mistake is) b) Do not destroy economy (which they are actually fixing by introducing silver sinks)

      So you've written a lot... but Im failing to see your message... you're comparing different games (or different DEV studios rather) and not really providing any good arguments. Please elaborate a bit further on the things that you think are the issues?
      thought the same thing...

      A wall of text with 0 emphasis on what he really meant.


      My understanding was just: "Other full loot games died, dont commit mistakes for it not ti die".

      ....¿?

      Bruh...
    • New

      @JunkyMoo - let me help you out. Your post is way too long for most people to care. I think you have an important message in there.. but the message needs to come first, and then you need to support and justify it with what comes next. I could post this thread myself, but I don't have the history you do with the games, so I'm going to give you a suggestion.

      Post a new thread.

      Subject: For Albion to survive, economy inflation needs to be managed

      Explain the problems with inflation, why it occurs (growing player base constantly farming). Explain the situations where it's killed games in the past. Then explain some of the ways EVE tackles it (since AFAIK they are the only game that has tackled this long term)

      This would start some really worthwhile discussion.
    • New

      Silver sinks the way they are implemented hurt new players who have the least silver... so not fixing @Captainrussia

      All players who have been playing and have the benefits have islands, bank tabs, and typically replace gear not repair it while new players are opposite

      Silver is generated and must be sunk yes, but in general it should be an unfair tax, those with wealth taxed more heavily - as a free market person this sucks to say but because silver is litterally pooped out by monsters its the only way to hit inflation without stopping new player flow.

      On the /r i saw people talking about the gold price dropping and 1m premium was 3 mill lower from 2 weeks ago - its still up like 5000% from day 1 but also the new silver sink means each piece of silver is worth more sure, but those who have it still are those who set price, those who are trying to get it do so at the same rate they always have but they must deal with new tax burdens which means they have a longer grind than we did.

      This is also an issue with Transmuting - just went in and immediately the prices stabilized all T5 skins were 900 per now they are 400 per just like every other T5 out there because they fixed the prices so while i benefit from running T5 gathering earning as much as T6 did now new players cannot exploit the markets like i did, nor can i

      There is no supply or demand anymore there is just price and is there a person selling for that price? No ok ill go transmute the lower tier because buying a piece low tier and transmuting it up is virtually the same price as buying the better piece

      The market is mostly dead at this point it is like selling to an NPC vendor unless you have a rare piece like a T7-8 artifact that no one sells cuz they want to use it.
    • New

      blappo wrote:

      Silver sinks the way they are implemented hurt new players who have the least silver... so not fixing @Captainrussia

      All players who have been playing and have the benefits have islands, bank tabs, and typically replace gear not repair it while new players are opposite

      Silver is generated and must be sunk yes, but in general it should be an unfair tax, those with wealth taxed more heavily - as a free market person this sucks to say but because silver is litterally pooped out by monsters its the only way to hit inflation without stopping new player flow.

      On the /r i saw people talking about the gold price dropping and 1m premium was 3 mill lower from 2 weeks ago - its still up like 5000% from day 1 but also the new silver sink means each piece of silver is worth more sure, but those who have it still are those who set price, those who are trying to get it do so at the same rate they always have but they must deal with new tax burdens which means they have a longer grind than we did.

      This is also an issue with Transmuting - just went in and immediately the prices stabilized all T5 skins were 900 per now they are 400 per just like every other T5 out there because they fixed the prices so while i benefit from running T5 gathering earning as much as T6 did now new players cannot exploit the markets like i did, nor can i

      There is no supply or demand anymore there is just price and is there a person selling for that price? No ok ill go transmute the lower tier because buying a piece low tier and transmuting it up is virtually the same price as buying the better piece

      The market is mostly dead at this point it is like selling to an NPC vendor unless you have a rare piece like a T7-8 artifact that no one sells cuz they want to use it.
      things in real life change at random as well... get used it. You ever play Monopoly? Imagine this last patch was like picking up the "?" Card. Maybe you will get double salary - but maybe the silver sinks will increase and you will make a bit more less $$ as a new player.

      The economy in US (and almost globally) crashed in 2008-09. Did people cry? Sure... but thats just life. Consider SBI's patch as the RNG act of god. Something changed. Adapt to it or die out.

      PS. Eve Online has been implementing a lot of silver sinks and re-balancing ship (read = gear) and resource prices many times over its lifespan.

      PPS. As I've already posted in another thread - increased market cost does indeed tax the wealthy more. How much do you think will a noob pay who has 500k in market orders vs a guy who has 20mil on the market?
    • New

      u didnt even address the points - the silver sinks are in the wrong places

      Putting flat taxes sinks more silver from rich players by having big numbers of silver but hurts new players more whose 50k silver purchase with 6% means they spend another 30 minutes grinding with their t4 gear to buy that same thing


      What would be better would be something to be purchased with silver from an NPC

      If all players generate silver playing a tax reduces silver however hurts the 99% not the 1%

      I am not sure what should be sold for silver but off the top of my head - bust out a few mounts - not skins - with a massive silver price tag from a limited time vendor



      Another thought would be to have each city trade using its own currency Introduce X amount of that currency per city mobs drop silver but there is a set amount of city currency to trade in. Then every so often assess those currencies and add or remove it based on if say players exchange silver for it then log off for the last time.

      Then those city currency become sort of a market of their own fluctuating like the gold market
    • New

      blappo wrote:

      This is also an issue with Transmuting - just went in and immediately the prices stabilized all T5 skins were 900 per now they are 400 per just like every other T5 out there because they fixed the prices so while i benefit from running T5 gathering earning as much as T6 did now new players cannot exploit the markets like i did, nor can i

      That's a shame: skinning is inherently harder than the other gathering professions, and the price reflected that.

      I wonder if transmutation would make more sense if it were only possible in the black zone. (Perhaps also allow it to go both ways, to transmute lower as well as higher.)

      blappo wrote:

      I am not sure what should be sold for silver

      Premium. If premium could be bought for silver, that's a huge guaranteed sink, allowing the pressure to be removed from many other places (and even allowing more silver fountains, such as directly buying silver for money).

      Of course, that's risky, requiring more gold sinks, but long-term, I'm not sure how the supply of gold can ever meet the demand. All deflation does is mask that problem for a short time.

      Another tack would be to make it possible to survive without premium, such that players don't automatically assume they need it, thus lowering the demand on gold. (Also risky, yes.)

      Ultimately, however, the game needs to be fun, and these latest changes punish people for playing the game. Doesn't seem like a good long-term strategy.
    • New

      Kurobon wrote:

      @JunkyMoo - let me help you out. Your post is way too long for most people to care. I think you have an important message in there.. but the message needs to come first, and then you need to support and justify it with what comes next. I could post this thread myself, but I don't have the history you do with the games, so I'm going to give you a suggestion.

      Post a new thread.

      Subject: For Albion to survive, economy inflation needs to be managed

      Explain the problems with inflation, why it occurs (growing player base constantly farming). Explain the situations where it's killed games in the past. Then explain some of the ways EVE tackles it (since AFAIK they are the only game that has tackled this long term)

      You are right that the post is long, and everyone is right in that it's confusing, and it's actually a cut down version of the whole crazy story i was about to publish, when decided to skip a lot of history, and a lot about the future, or should i say, be that precise. Specifically, i don't want to directly answer the question, what's the core of the problem, and how to destroy it. I would piss off the developers too much if i said it short, straight,correct and true to the point. What i intended to do was jut bring the problem to the table, and talk about how things come to be at one point, if nothing is changed, like for example my mention of EVE was a sarcasm. They never fixed the problem, just prolonged it....sooooooooooo long.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      PS. Eve Online has been implementing a lot of silver sinks and re-balancing ship (read = gear) and resource prices many times over its lifespan.
      True, and regulated the increase of inflation to a larger multi-year life span, in other words controlled. Dough, ... there is no wealth generation like this we have here, in EVE, the best you have is mineral farming, the closest to it. But that's still an action.

      Islands in Albion had an initial idea of making people come online everyday, at about the same time, to gather stuff they planted yesterday. That has to be combined with an interaction which makes them spend all that, in order to progress, or get something 3rd .

      For example.

      You make 25 man raids, dungeons meant for 25 or so players, that get you items , weapons and armors, that cant be crafted, in tiny amounts, with very low chances of dropping , and you put em into the rewards for those dungeons. Be very, any miss usage of too much percentage in drop chances will kill crafting, so it has to be very small. Other stuffs can be put in also from regular dungeons to compensate for the lack of the main drop everyone is expecting.
      HOWEVER ! the "upkeep" repair and consumable system placed should be so strong, that it makes you consume all that the island made that day to maintain your daily raid runs, if you dare do them. The entry points should be safe to access, so that high tier armors and weapons will be used in great amounts, making repairs a noticeable thing. That fixes not the game, but the steady money gain for the company, from premium subs who play raids, like they used to in other games.

      2nd. attempt. Make soul-bound a buyable thing, for some rings and trinkets you can put into the game, maybe 2 rings slots and 1 trinket slot, that you don't loose upon death, but have to recharge using silver. Those same rings and trinkets can also maybe be tied to those raids mentioned above. Or not, either way, if that doesn't work, you might as well put everything on soul-bound-able, so that a player can use silver to retain everything upon death, if enough silver is used, and also, never forget that soul-bound items cannot be traded further. So the player who does that, eats up the item forever, thus, eating up the silver value of it, destroying it, and thus, it gets the worth of silver back, because there's less of it now, a part of it got destroyed.

      Don't forget your PVP-ers.

      In other words, worry about your PVE and PVP members at the same time, and combine their interactions using item needs, since those rare raid items pvp gank guilds cant afford the time to go to, will pay a nice buck to get, from those who do, go to those dungeon raids, and do primarily PVE.

      PS: The PVE content should mainly be on the side of combos, bosses that have phases, that you need communication and teamwork to defeat, more interaction, moving, and some highly tuned up down time between phases for them to heal up and prepare for them, and so on, rather than lore. Lore can come later, if they love the bosses, they will love raids, and than the stories will be born easy. A good and entertaining boss makes a good dungeon.

      This is all, in an attempt to create more fun, the things to spend silver on, that give you back fun in return for that silver, with your friends, from guilds, from interaction, and friendship that grows.

      that's a blob of 5 min. ideas i came about just now, i think they can come up with something better with a team of people they have.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by JunkyMoo ().