Please do something to stop chest ratting/boss rushing in dungeons.

    • Owlsane wrote:

      For thoses whinning about having their solo dungon being ratted, how about going on maps with low activity? How about rubbing your 2 braincells together to activate some brain activity?

      Just avoid :
      - High tier solo dungeon
      - Blue and yellow zone
      - Maps close to cities and bz portals

      When i do 2h of solo dungeons daily on a specific map for 2 months and getting my dung ratted only one time...ya know that there is no issue at all with this situation. If you follow my steps trust me you're life will be better.

      Also just for your knowledge guys. If somebody ratted some chest... well basically he entered the dungeon first so he's on his right to do wathever he want's with it. If you're not okay with it, flag up and kill the peasant.
      If the guy enters after you and begin to rat your dungeon, it's because he's not okay about you doing the dungeon. Defend your dungeon, flag up and kill the peasant.

      Dungeon is working perfectly and as intended.

      /thread
      mmm..people still dont seem to understand the problem here.

      Risk vs Reward

      Skipping mobs is less risky but more rewarding while clearing the dungeon is more risky and less rewarding.

      What is the point is having mobs in a dungeon if people will skip them?

      Fame? But, if you skip dungeons, by the time you clear a dungeon normally a dungeon skipper would have enough silver to buy tomes and the fame they lost by not killing the mobs. So, yea whats the point of mobs then?

      How is it people see it fair to make less risky more rewarding and more risky less rewarding?

      So by saying dungeons work as intented means that you are ok with activitues that has lower risk to give more rewards? Then how about we buff arena reward by a lot? How about we buff expeditions by a lot then? Yea, lets make expeditions give more silver and fame than dungeons. Lets make arena give more silver than hellgates.

      Thats basically what means giving more reward for lower risk.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Holoin ().

    • Holoin wrote:

      Skipping mobs is less risky but more rewarding while clearing the dungeon is more risky and less rewarding.
      Skipping mobs is less risky - but also less rewarding (you only get the loot, and less/minimal fame from just killing the boss). Clearing the dungeon is more risky - but also more rewarding (you get silver from mobs + fame + loot)

      Holoin wrote:

      Fame? But, if you skip dungeons, by the time you clear a dungeon normally a dungeon skipper would have enough silver to buy tomes and the fame they lost by not killing the mobs. So, yea whats the point of mobs then?
      If the dungeon skipper sells loot to buy tomes - he is then only getting fame (and no loot). A full farmer gets loot + fame + silver. A ratter either gets loot or fame (if he sells loot to buy tomes). And I dont even think the ration of "selling-loot-to-tomes" is the same. I can clear a solo t6 RDG in 9 min (one that has 1 floor) - how fast can you "skip" it? Maybe twice as fast... but you only get the loot and no fame (or fame from tomes - but then no loot, if you sell the loot to buy tomes)

      Holoin wrote:

      How is it people see it fair to make less risky more rewarding and more risky less rewarding?
      Its less risk + same less reward or more risk + more reward. Seems kind of balanced, but like I've stated making it just a tad bit more risky might work. But really - just follow what @Owlsane has suggested.

      Skipping a dungeon does not give you "more" reward. At best - its the same reward, at worst (realistically) its actually less reward.
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      Holoin wrote:

      Skipping mobs is less risky but more rewarding while clearing the dungeon is more risky and less rewarding.
      Skipping mobs is less risky - but also less rewarding (you only get the loot, and less/minimal fame from just killing the boss). Clearing the dungeon is more risky - but also more rewarding (you get silver from mobs + fame + loot)

      Holoin wrote:

      Fame? But, if you skip dungeons, by the time you clear a dungeon normally a dungeon skipper would have enough silver to buy tomes and the fame they lost by not killing the mobs. So, yea whats the point of mobs then?
      If the dungeon skipper sells loot to buy tomes - he is then only getting fame (and no loot). A full farmer gets loot + fame + silver. A ratter either gets loot or fame (if he sells loot to buy tomes). And I dont even think the ration of "selling-loot-to-tomes" is the same. I can clear a solo t6 RDG in 9 min (one that has 1 floor) - how fast can you "skip" it? Maybe twice as fast... but you only get the loot and no fame (or fame from tomes - but then no loot, if you sell the loot to buy tomes)

      Holoin wrote:

      How is it people see it fair to make less risky more rewarding and more risky less rewarding?
      Its less risk + same less reward or more risk + more reward. Seems kind of balanced, but like I've stated making it just a tad bit more risky might work. But really - just follow what @Owlsane has suggested.
      Skipping a dungeon does not give you "more" reward. At best - its the same reward, at worst (realistically) its actually less reward.
      while a dungeons skipper can skip about 5-6 dungeons, the one who clear then will clear 1 of them.

      When you compare both, the skipper will have the loot of about 5-6 dungeobs, he can sell most of his loot, buy tomes and in the end he will have almost the same fame per hour as the one who clear the dungeon, with a little bit more of additional loot, and less risk.

      In the end, those who skip end up with similar fame and loot as thise that dont skip, but with half the risk.

      However, because dungeon skippers enter into more dungeons and get more contact with chests, they have higher chances of finding higher chests rarity.

      Basically, dungeons skippers have a higher chance of getting lucky. And that is what makes it more rewarding.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Holoin ().

    • Holoin wrote:

      mmm..people still dont seem to understand the problem here.
      Yes apparently fame isn't part of the reward in the mind of some people.

      So basically you're telling me while somebody clear 1 dungeon, a skipper can check 5-6 dungeon? You're telling me that when i do 6-8 full solo dungeon in an hour (it takes me 5min to do a solo dungeon fully) a skipper can check around 40 solo dungeon in an hour? That some nice speed hack if you can do it.

      Yes they can buy the tomes to get the fame but what's the point when you can get the monney and the fame? Oh it's safer to do this way? Sure but the silver you use to spend on tomes (you have to buy around 400k fame worth of tomes for what i get from clearing 1 hour of dungeon) make it that you don't get that much in the end. Again a perfect example of risk vs reward!


      While i agree that when solo dungeon was introduced, ratting like crasy was more profitable because black market supply was there but since lots of people is doing that, most of the time you get runes, bags of silver, sometimes the time t4 trash item and sometimes something interesting. But in the end you don't get both if you're ratting.

      Again and again not a problem AT ALL. Ratting just follow the concept of risk vs reward.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Owlsane ().

    • Holoin wrote:

      while a dungeons skipper can skip about 5-6 dungeons, the one who clear then will clear 1 of them.

      Owlsane wrote:

      So basically you're telling me while somebody clear 1 dungeon, a skipper can check 5-6 dungeon? You're telling me that when i do 6-8 full solo dungeon in an hour (it takes me 5min to do a solo dungeon fully) a skipper can check around 40 solo dungeon in an hour? That some nice speed hack if you can do it.
      yes I feel like our actual statistics for ratting are getting out of hand and over-exaggerated.

      I also don't believe (until I see some proof) that while I do 1 t6 sRDG in 9 min - someone can rat 5-6. Depending on the zone, it might take them just 2-3 min to find 1 sRDG to rat. Especially the higher you go in tier as the dungeons become more spread out and scarce.

      Again - that is not to say that Im not for "risk-vs-reward" concept, I am all for it, but I just want to be careful how we look at the data before we suggest a nerf. And TBH - I think only SBI has the real numbers and stats on how fast these RDG's are getting ratted vs fully cleared.

      @Owlsane - what tier dungeon are you able to clear in 5 min?
    • Owlsane wrote:

      Roccandil wrote:

      So, gankers have a right to reward without risk. Interesting.
      Yikes...
      One lootbag divided by 299 gankers. 0% risk for 100% reward of...1k silver at most? Risk vs reward concept working as intended.
      How much risk is there to diving an SRD with a party of, say, five? Aren't the odds going to be heavily stacked in favor of the divers? And if the divers have just a few successful dives, aren't they likely to get a good reward?

      This isn't about Fusion's absurd example, this about gankers thinking they have a right to a good reward with low risk. Is that really working as intended?
    • if the problem is as rampant as the zealots claim, then the chances of a rat finding a ratted dungeon would be pretty good... so if they aren't killing mobs, they are wasting a serious amount of time just running around

      and how is a 5man diving group any different than a 5man gank group killing solo gatherers?
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    • This thread is not about ganking, but I'll bite a little:

      Roccandil wrote:

      How much risk is there to diving an SRD with a party of, say, five? Aren't the odds going to be heavily stacked in favor of the divers?
      The fact that you are posing this as a question (implying that you don't know the answer yourself) - is good. That means there is no "token" one sided answer, and it all depends. When things are not one-sided = that is good.
      To further answer your question - yes the "odds" of winning might be stacked in favor of the divers (and thats a bit of a stretch TBH, I've escaped being dove by 5-man before, and that happened on 2nd floor), but the odds of getting good loot in that process... not so much - as you'd have to split, then rinse + repeat. (and potentially waste time going into empty dungeons, as in ones where there is no player inside)

      Roccandil wrote:

      And if the divers have just a few successful dives, aren't they likely to get a good reward?
      If I buy "just a few" successful lottery tickets - aren't I likely to get a good reward? There is a reason though I don't believe in all this lottery/gambling crap, and never buy into lotteries.

      Roccandil wrote:

      This isn't about Fusion's absurd example, this about gankers thinking they have a right to a good reward with low risk. Is that really working as intended?
      "Thinking" is one thing. They can think whatever they want. The way it works out in reality - now that is what we should be concerned with. Ganking - in general, can be a rewarding activity... but that largely depends on the skill of the gankers and skill of the so called "victim(s)". Bad gankers will not be rewarded for ganking good targets. Targets would either escape (at best) or actually manage to kill the ganker(s) (at worst). Good gankers vs bad players (bad victims) would def be very rewarding - and good gankers vs good players (targets) - now this is where all the fun of "outsmarting" and "outskilling" one another comes from. So for the latter situation - it all depends on skill.

      Fusionbomb wrote:

      if the problem is as rampant as the zealots claim, then the chances of a rat finding a ratted dungeon would be pretty good... so if they aren't killing mobs, they are wasting a serious amount of time just running around
      Actually this is a very very good point we've forgotten. Just like the player-driven market that self regulates - this "ratting" issue would self-regulate as well. Meaning - that if there is too many ratters - they would keep going into other ratted dungeons and just wasting time and getting 0 reward (since the chests there are empty, and they dont care about killing the mobs).
    • Rewards from Solo RD are so lo that I don't think this is an issue. Like others have said - if you want to avoid this problem go to less popular zones for solo RD. The tier 7 red and black zones and t8 black zones are obviously the most popular and where you're likely to run into a dungeon where someone has skipped mobs and just done the chests.

      IMO there's nothing wrong with either skipping mobs and only doing bosses/chests or working the dungeon from back to front. It greatly lowers your risk of getting dove, and the incremental fame/loot from the trash mobs is not worth the risk.
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    • Owlsane wrote:

      They have not a good reward since they have to divide the loot in between them... so yes it is working as intended.

      Divide and conquer: a group of five can easily kill five single players in SRDs, one after the other, and thus get a good reward. The gameplay mechanics inherently set up those who do dungeons to be defeated in detail.

      Captainrussia wrote:

      Ganking - in general, can be a rewarding activity... but that largely depends on the skill of the gankers and skill of the so called "victim(s)".

      For the purpose of balance, I would assume equal skill and gear, since this isn't about balancing skill or gear.

      Fusionbomb wrote:

      and how is a 5man diving group any different than a 5man gank group killing solo gatherers?

      It's not any different; N+1 applies in both cases. Gatherers and dungeoners gain marginal benefits from N+1, whereas the efficiency of ganking/diving goes up significantly with more people (enough that ganking zergs can be efficient). All other things being equal, an efficient gank group will always outnumber an efficient gatherer/dungeon party.

      This means the game pushes open world PvP interactions to be inherently lopsided. That seems like an odd design decision.

      Granted, this discussion is about chest-ratting, but even then, why are so many people OK with skipping mobs to do the final boss, and then (possibly) doing the dungeon in reverse to lower the risk of being dived?

      By any reasonable metric, that's just broken. :) (And honestly, it makes Albion look bad.)
    • Roccandil wrote:

      Divide and conquer: a group of five can easily kill five single players in SRDs, one after the other, and thus get a good reward. The gameplay mechanics inherently set up those who do dungeons to be defeated in detail.
      False. Reward is measured as a unit of time. (otherwise we should all just play in the tutorial t1-t3 zones and get free 0-risk rewards, right?) Which means that spending hours with a group trying to dive solo dungeons is very, very inefficient (unless you go to t8 zones, where risk-vs-reward is at a much higher ratio, so thats also working as intended)

      Roccandil wrote:

      For the purpose of balance, I would assume equal skill and gear, since this isn't about balancing skill or gear.
      False. You can't assume anything. The gankers "assume" they have an advantage... and that is where you can counter them - if you know what you're doing. Skill and gear play a major role in the risk-vs-reward formula.

      Roccandil wrote:

      It's not any different; N+1 applies in both cases. Gatherers and dungeoners gain marginal benefits from N+1, whereas the efficiency of ganking/diving goes up significantly with more people (enough that ganking zergs can be efficient). All other things being equal, an efficient gank group will always outnumber an efficient gatherer/dungeon party.

      This means the game pushes open world PvP interactions to be inherently lopsided. That seems like an odd design decision.

      Granted, this discussion is about chest-ratting, but even then, why are so many people OK with skipping mobs to do the final boss, and then (possibly) doing the dungeon in reverse to lower the risk of being dived?

      By any reasonable metric, that's just broken. (And honestly, it makes Albion look bad.)
      Gatherers and Dungeoneers benefit significantly from skill. Gankers do too - but ganking has a much lower "skill entry barrier" then Gathering or Dungeon Faming - thus there is far more "unskilled" gankers compared to skilled Gatherers and Dungeoneers. The only thing that can beat N+1 is skill. And thats a fact - ask any veteran player or good ZvZ'er.

      "All other things being equal, an efficient gank group will always outnumber an efficient gatherer/dungeon party." - that is also not a hard fact. Its not always true. You are assuming way too much.

      "This means the game pushes open world PvP interactions to be inherently lopsided. That seems like an odd design decision." Game does reward N+1, but it also rewards skill. So skill vs N+1 is always in conflict vs one another and thats by design. Its also part of the risk-vs-reward formula.

      So many people are Ok with skipping - because thats an alternative (read = creative) way of doing a specific activity. There are not many MMO's out there where you can do an activity in multiple ways. Can you skip mobs in WOW instances? No you can't.

      By any reasonable metric - its not broken - its creativity. We can make ratting a bit more "risky", but as an activity on its own, its totally fine. And it makes Albion look good - because it has options and more then 1 way of doing a given activity. Choice = good. Theme park MMO with no choice = bad, dull and boring.


      PS. I've still yet to see any numbers proving that skipping = more reward then full clearing (per unit of time)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Captainrussia ().

    • please do something to stop portal/gate campers.

      please do something to stop dungeon divers.

      please do something to stop gankers from stealing our goodie bags.

      please do something to stop full-loot pvp.

      please do something to stop these mobs from attacking me.

      or just maybe.. please do something to stop snowflakes from ruining the game.


      meh.. nevermind.. keep patching the game to cater them cry babies then make an Albion Online Classic server.
    • Captainrussia wrote:


      PS. I've still yet to see any numbers proving that skipping = more reward then full clearing (per unit of time)
      It was fun. running in low tier gear through as many dungeons as possible in an hour and not getting whacked was fun. there's no statistics for fun. it's a full-loot p-v-fucking-p game and people are whining for boss rushing.. not for portal/gate campers... for boss rushing. w00t.
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      PS. I've still yet to see any numbers proving that skipping = more reward then full clearing (per unit of time)
      You have to compare the entire situation though, not just the rewards.

      A full clear gives more loot/fame, fairly obviously, but for that extra you assume all possible risk associated with being in the open world.

      For ratting, you get a very large portion of the total loot, but assume almost none of the risk involved in being in the open world.

      I hate talking about risk vs reward, but it's definitely a thing and it is/was definitely skewed in regard to dungeon ratting. Then on top of that skewed risk/reward, you were also taking a dump on other players by, unknowingly to them, yoinking all their loots, creating a situation in which they just accepted all the risk, but then awkwardly find out they don't get a large portion of the rewards, and they couldn't do anything about it.

      It's like going into a store to buy a video game. Paying and taking it home, only to find out the game isn't in the box, and when you return to the store to get the problem fixed they tell you, "Sorry, we don't guarantee anything is going to be in the box. You just have to pay and then hope stuff is in there." Worse, the guy who ended up with the game didn't even have to pay for it at all. Just walked into the store, opened the box and took it. So the situation ends up being that everyone should just walk in and steal the game, because paying for it is for suckers.

      If doing the content as intended is objectively worse in very meaningful ways, then the content needs to be redesigned, and it has been at least somewhat.
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    • everyone is talking about risk vs reward, but the real risk is there for both types of dungeon runners and no it's not the mobs. it's all them dungeon divers, portal/gate campers and gankers of all sorts. the whole dungeon shenanigan started just because some people were whining about how some other people chose to play the game. and so they managed to take away that choice from the rest of us.
    • Piddle wrote:

      You have to compare the entire situation though, not just the rewards.

      A full clear gives more loot/fame, fairly obviously, but for that extra you assume all possible risk associated with being in the open world.

      For ratting, you get a very large portion of the total loot, but assume almost none of the risk involved in being in the open world.
      Yes, absolutely agreed.

      Piddle wrote:

      I hate talking about risk vs reward, but it's definitely a thing and it is/was definitely skewed in regard to dungeon ratting. Then on top of that skewed risk/reward, you were also taking a dump on other players by, unknowingly to them, yoinking all their loots, creating a situation in which they just accepted all the risk, but then awkwardly find out they don't get a large portion of the rewards, and they couldn't do anything about it.
      Agreed.

      Hollywoodi wrote:

      It is a paradise for us divers now..I check an entire zone for a dungeon to dive in like 5 mins then I go next

      And the reward got reduced bug or not while the risk skyrocket

      Someone is really "spot on"
      Well, in the old system (map) - I had a lot of difficulty getting dove (in Anglia), because I guess gankers knew that people were skipping and diving was pointless unless t8 (and maybe some? t7) zones.

      Now - hopefully, it will be much easier to find 1v1 fights in those solo RDGs. Of course groups diving solos would still kind of be an issue, but they should buff the shrines and make them more frequent (maybe adjust mob difficulty a bit to compensate), but fighting 1v1 and 1v2 should be easier in a solo RDG... or so I hope.