Reworking speed shot from bow

    • Reworking speed shot from bow

      Useless spell atm, simply evershadowed by every other W spell by far, damage wise and utility wise. Even auto-attack based bow that theorically should use the spell ABSOLUTELY don't use it cuz you deal less damage than using explosive shot / ray of light and it's more constraining.

      Normal bow use mostly explosive shot and sometimes ray of light / frost shot
      Warbow use either ray of light or frost shot
      Longbow use mostly explosive shot and sometimes ray of light
      Whispering use mostly explosive shot and sometimes ray of light / frost shot
      Wailing use explosive shot
      Badon use Ray of light

      I didn't mentionned one time speed shot being used in any of thoses bow cuz i am yet do fail seeing a bow user using this spell once since frost shot rework. This is enough to say that spell is beyond useless and SBI needs to do something about it.

      I'm proposing this : Saving the purpose of speed shot which is shooting fastly some arrows but working the behavior of the spell and tweaking damage/cd and stuff

      -You next auto attack will shoot 3 more autos (that applies on hit-effects stacks)
      -The damage of each shots is 150% of an auto attack (if an auto is 50 dmg that means 75 for each shot of speed shot)
      -8 sec cooldown
      -mana cost a little higher that the actual speed soot

      Without counting the on hit effect stacks the dps/s is the same between explosive shot and the new speed shot but without the aoe. You lose aoe for more explosive single target dps (mostly synergising whit whispering bow and normal bow but i do believe that normal bow doesn't benefit that much compared with explosive shot or ray of light). Other bows can use it on specific situation (like avoiding getting mob aggro by an unfortunate aoe)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Owlsane ().

    • Maybe you found some usage and comfort in 1v1 but besides that, nobody uses it at all. I mean it's just a fact that everything else in the W slot is far more usefull and better than speed shot. (Honestly i don't know what bow do you use for 1v1 but if it's either whispering or normal bow you will have better results with explosive shot)

      Also speeds shot it's actually so contradictory in what it gives for the user. The spell gives attack speed and movement speed. You either use it for dps OR for the movement speed but never for BOTH at the same time.

      Let me explain my statement. When you use speed shot, you get 50% AS speed buff and 20% MS if i'm not mistaken right? The problem is that if you try to use the AS bonus at full potential, you will not exploit any MS bonus it gives at all, simply because you have so much attack speed (exactly 1.95) that is physically impossible to hit and run (also you deal less DPS using speed shot than using explosive shot which is laughable). If you use only the MS bonus then 1) you don't exploit the DPS at all and 2) use frost shot. Now we get to the situation when you try to have a good balance of both and my answer is use explosive shot. You will have a better result DPS wise while maintaining an equal hit and run potential. There is also this binding of hiting something to actually benefit the buff which is completely BS when you have adrenaline boost / iron will / etc. In conclusion, every situation, even if you seek full dps, full mobility or a good balance between both, any other W spell outshines it by a vaste landscape.

      Speed shot was bad but could find a niche on pure single target dps before the AS changes on Bow because you could actually exploit fully BOTH the AS bonus and the MS bonus but after this change, it's bad and everything else do his work better.

      Now the question is : Do we tweak some numbers to match a concept of enhancing dps and hit&run potential with for example less AS but auto attacks deal 100% more damage during the buff? Do we revamp completly the spell but try to work on the "speed shot" aspect of the spell (basically my proposition)? More MS? More buff duration?

      We need to revive this spell in a way that offers something that others W spell doesn't. I'm not looking to overtune this spell in such way that bows become what is actually swords and druid right now (I really don't wan't to see 10k plebs respecing to use bows just for the sake of an overpowered spell) but offering bow users actually 4 usable W spells choice instead of 3 usable W spell and 1 spell that if you use it your pals calls you a troll.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Owlsane ().

    • I did the math, tested with a T6.1 longbow.

      • If you fight someone for less than 20-25 seconds, then Explosive Arrows offers better DPS.
      • If the fight takes at least 25 seconds, then Speed Shot has slightly higher DPS than Explosive Arrows.
      This was calculated taking into account the cooldowns of the 2 skills, speed shot recharges in 15s while explosive arrows in 20. If you reach the point where you activate speed shot for the 2nd time during the fight, you're doing slightly more damage than if you had chosen the skill explosive arrows.
    • Adrivan wrote:

      I did the math, tested with a T6.1 longbow.

      • If you fight someone for less than 20-25 seconds, then Explosive Arrows offers better DPS.
      • If the fight takes at least 25 seconds, then Speed Shot has slightly higher DPS than Explosive Arrows.
      This was calculated taking into account the cooldowns of the 2 skills, speed shot recharges in 15s while explosive arrows in 20. If you reach the point where you activate speed shot for the 2nd time during the fight, you're doing slightly more damage than if you had chosen the skill explosive arrows.
      I'm sorry to tell you that somehow you are wrong, the only moment speed shot outdps explosive shot is only when you begin the spell for 3 seconds and then when you relaunch the spell just after cd came back for something like 3 second too. After that, explosive shot outdps speed shot for good and gets a gap that grows slowly.

      Somehow what you stated about explosive shot being better for fights before 20-25 is in reality the contrary. You get for sure the edge after 20-25 second while speed shot is better only in the early 20 sec (and exactly short after using the spell).


      See for yourself. This is a graphic showing the progression of the dps for both explosive and speed shot. I took the calculation until the 60th second (this is when both cooldown come back at the exact same time => 20+20+20 = 60 // 15+15+15+15 = 60). The blue represent the damage from using explosive shot+autoattacks while the orange is the speed shot+autoattacks. After 60 second, using explosive shot variant makes you deal 319 more damage than speed shot variant.

      ViniColen wrote:

      Its good only for whisper bow.
      You're right. But at some point it wasn't the case and this is because of the whispering bow damage change recently. Before you would just use explosive shot and you outdps speed shot even if it synergise perfectly with procing more undead arrows. I didn't checked how the buff changed the damage comparison and well... see the results...


      Orange is speedshot variant while blue is the explosive shot variant. I didn't digged longer than 20 because, first even if speed shot has 15s cooldown you have enough IQ to know that using that spell without using undead arrow is a complete waste of dps, so basically you "transform that 15s cd into 20s", second the damage output is always higher than the explosive shot variant, so it's pointless to go further.

      So yeah it's only good for whispering and that's the issue. Every spell exept this one have at least utility for 3-4 bows while speed shot is only "good" on whispering. I don't take normal bow into account because you get so much attack speed from enchanted quiver that is a fucking waste to not use explosive shot or ray of light while shredding resistances on your ennemy.

      As i said above. you have to stay immobile to do your dps is and it's contradictory for what this spell gives you. You are forced to stay on 13m range to use speed shot while the undead arrow is 18.5m if not mistaken, cooldowns are not synergised, no synergy in Q spells, etc, etc... while both spells synergises very well with the attack speed sterioid, it's bad in the rest, too restrictive, etc

      I'm at that point that i never use speed shot in any aspect of the game (pve i use ray of light, pvp explosive shot, ganking frost shot, etc...), it tells you something when a main whisper bow don't use the speed shot even when you get the best dps at it.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Owlsane ().

    • @Owlsane

      May I ask what attack speed and damage values you used for the calculations (what was your DPS)?
      You need to keep in mind that speed shot is active for 5 seconds and is dependent on your current DPS while explosive shot is active for 10 attacks and doesn't care about your DPS. So the player's attack speed and damage is relevant

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Adrivan ().

    • @Adrivan I applied the damage values from the t7.0 longbow weapon which is equivalent of the 6.1 you used (both 980 item power).
      The base speed of the weapon is 1.3 which it means an autoattack every 0.76 second (the math is 1/1.3). I used the exact 5 second of the buff you mentionned, it makes the attack speed going 1.3*1.5 = 1.95 which is makes one autoattack every 0.51 second (1/1.95) during that buff, then the value goes back to 0.76.

      For explosive shot i added his damage with the autoattack damage only on the 10 first autos after the spell is used.

      For whispering bow i used the tier 6.0 (or 5.1) version which has also 980 item power to keep the same auto damage / spells damage as the 6.1/7.0 longbow. The whispering buff is exactly 8 second like tooltip says and i applied the undead arrow damage while the buff was active only.

      Everything is applied correctly acording to the behaviour of every spell and game mechanics.

      See for yourself on this GDocs. Light orange cells means when the speed shot buff is active and light green cells means when undead arrow buff is active.
      (docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d…NGJfh3T8/edit?usp=sharing)

      PS : Love that Mona Draven btw. Makes me always giggle.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Owlsane ().

    • @Owlsane

      Alright, so I did it slightly differently. I'll show you here how. Feel free to correct me where you think I got it wrong:

      DPS = damage * attack speed
      For T6.1 longbow, DPS = 87 * 1.3 = 113.1 (rounded by the game to 114 - you can see these values in-game).

      Speed Shot gives +50% AS for 5 seconds, so your DPS during those 5 seconds is: 87 * 1.3 * 1.5 = 169.65 (~170)
      That means you deal ~170 - 114 = 56 extra damage per second while the spell is active. That is 56 * 5 = 280 damage for the full duration
      The shot also instantly deals 194 damage when activated. So total extra damage over 5 seconds is 280 + 194 = 474.

      Explosive arrows deal 63 extra damage per attack for 10 attacks.
      With an attack speed of 1.3, it takes ~7.7 seconds to attack 10 times.
      So you deal 630 extra damage over 7.7 seconds.

      After the effect of explosive shot ends, you still have 12.3 seconds of cooldown remaining
      For speed shot, you have 10 seconds left.

      So after 10 seconds, you activate speed shot again: and you deal 474 extra damage over 5 seconds once more. So far it took you 5 + 10 + 5 = 20 seconds to deal 474 * 2 = 948 extra damage. (47.4 extra dmg / second)
      After 12.3 seconds, you activate explosive shot again, and you deal 630 extra damage over 7.7 seconds once more. So far it took you 7.7 + 12.3 + 7.7 = 27.7 seconds to deal 630 * 2 = 1260 extra damage. (45.48 extra dmg / second)

      So you can see already after 20 seconds of fighting, speed shot is giving more DPS, although the difference is quite small.
      It seems like at least on paper these 2 spells are almost identical in 1v1, with explosive shots having the advantage of being AoE. So after all maybe it's not that bad of an idea to rework speed shot. In my opinion a simple increase in attack speed, lets say from 50% to 70% would make it clearly superior in 1v1 while keeping explosive shot good for AoE farming.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Adrivan ().

    • Now i see why we have a difference in between our maths. Your don't take into account that you still do autoattacks during cooldowns and that for this reason that speed shot has better dps than explosive shot in the long run. While the maths are right i don't see something wrong, the reallity is that you still do something when cd is down. Anyway...

      The AS speed buff won't change a thing honestly. As i said earlier in my post people don't take this spell because it gives you 2 buffs that contradicts themselves. At some point with enough attack speed you can't physically move in between autos making the movement speed buff pointless while the opposite make it that you deal way less damage.

      Also the fact that you have to hit an ennemy in a 13m range forces you to place yourself to benefit that spell (whispering bow get's fucked by that if they want to dps at max range for example) while you have adrenaline boost or iron will that allows you to get the buffs with only 1 key press.

      You can make this spell in a way that you feel to do some quick shots by adding something like "your next auto triggers 4 more autos instantly" you get the "attack speed" aspect while your movement speed is not fucked by game mechanic. Also a good way to make it synergise with normal and whispering bow is that it triggers on hit effect.

      Let's say you use enchanted quiver and then speed shot. Your auto and the 4 other that will follow makes proc 5 stack of enchanted quiver. Allowing to be at max stack one auto short. For whispering it will make proc 5 undead arrow in the total, making this weapon having a burst potential.

      This idea has both potential and drawbacks, will be usable on at least 2 bows and at least you get a real 1v1 W spell that is excellent dps wise and not binded on the mobility/utility by game mechanic.
    • Owlsane wrote:

      Now i see why we have a difference in between our maths. Your don't take into account that you still do autoattacks during cooldowns and that for this reason that speed shot has better dps than explosive shot in the long run. While the maths are right i don't see something wrong, the reallity is that you still do something when cd is down. Anyway...

      The AS speed buff won't change a thing honestly. As i said earlier in my post people don't take this spell because it gives you 2 buffs that contradicts themselves. At some point with enough attack speed you can't physically move in between autos making the movement speed buff pointless while the opposite make it that you deal way less damage.

      Also the fact that you have to hit an ennemy in a 13m range forces you to place yourself to benefit that spell (whispering bow get's fucked by that if they want to dps at max range for example) while you have adrenaline boost or iron will that allows you to get the buffs with only 1 key press.

      You can make this spell in a way that you feel to do some quick shots by adding something like "your next auto triggers 4 more autos instantly" you get the "attack speed" aspect while your movement speed is not fucked by game mechanic. Also a good way to make it synergise with normal and whispering bow is that it triggers on hit effect.

      Let's say you use enchanted quiver and then speed shot. Your auto and the 4 other that will follow makes proc 5 stack of enchanted quiver. Allowing to be at max stack one auto short. For whispering it will make proc 5 undead arrow in the total, making this weapon having a burst potential.

      This idea has both potential and drawbacks, will be usable on at least 2 bows and at least you get a real 1v1 W spell that is excellent dps wise and not binded on the mobility/utility by game mechanic.
      Why would auto attacking between cooldowns make a difference in the math? Those auto-attacks deal the same damage regardless if you have explosive shot on cooldown or speed shot on cooldown, so no need to count them. We only consider the damage that is done EXTRA (on top of the normal attacks).

      Regarding the movement speed boost, it doesnt hurt to have it. But you can remove the movement speed completely and just boost attack speed if you feel it makes more sense. Or maybe replace movement speed with CC resistance. In any case, I can see this skill being a lot more used if it had 70% attack speed. Right now its basically just the same as explosive shots but without AoE.
    • Well check my gdocs, if i got that result by adding autos in between cd that means something.

      If speed shot gave movement speed and attack speed at the same time it's for a reason. Adding more attack speed will not make it more used than now because it binds more people using it than using something else.

      As a range dps you need to stay away from potential damage source while dealing dps, with the actual speed shot you will be immobilised (both @50% or 70% buff). Removing the movement speed buff is out of question since it gave something to help kite thoses damage source unless we find an another solution which is what i'm suggesting. My solution removes that immobilisation issue by instead of buffing your attack speed, making it that you just throw 1 auto and 3-4 other autos automatically goes after the 1st one.

      In conclusion my solution offers :
      -The conservation of the "speed shot" philosophy
      -Give the right solo target dps it needs for a w spell
      -Save the kiting aspect without handicaping the dps
      -Give for auto-attack based build something that synergises very well
    • 50 attack speed and 20 movement, no real use, 100% situational.

      Si mantenemos todo igual y aumentamos su velocidad de movimiento a 50, sería un hechizo que vale la pena usar, pero no necesariamente reemplazar uno ya establecido. Siento que daría más juego.

      Aumento mi velocidad de ataque o corro, detengo enemigos o hago AdE. El segundo WI no cuenta, ya que la remodelación de esta sería su versión mejorada, lo que ocurre en muchas armas, como la nueva Q de escarcha
    • I would offer an alternative rework. The main problem with the bow, is that unlike with the 1H dagger, you do not also gain mobility. The problem presented here is that you trade more damage, for increased stand time, meaning that to fully take advantage of the weapon's gifted attack speed increase, you have to stand still completely.

      I would personally prefer if speed-shot removed stand time for it's duration, allowing you to effectively orb walk fully whilst attacking your opponent(s). This would mean that with effective timing, you could kite your opponents around whilst shooting them, even with max stacks of quiver, this obviously would still be purge-able, so stacking the skill with your boots and your E could prove risky, making it more open to being countered heavily, the more buffs you stack with it.

      So basically, from:

      increased move speed + attack speed + damage on skill hit _-> to -> removes stand time on auto attack + move speed + damage on hit

      Effectively removing the gained attack speed, as that part of the spell is kind of counter intuitive, as increasing your move speed is worked against by the increase in attack speed causing you to stand still more often along a given path.
      Hop on in to my Discord and Twitch ^^