Economic health of Albion

    • Economic health of Albion

      Hello guys, I'm a new player of this pretty game and I have some questions, and I want to discuss about economy of this game.
      So, this game seams a good example of liberal state, but something worries me, a full liberal state has some risks, the good and old crises. But I don't want to talk like a economist, cause I'm not.
      Then I want to know, there is a monopoly guild or something like that? And the gold, tends to falls cause every time someone buy gold there is more supply and the same demands? And the devs, they do the state role or let the "invisible hand" of Adam Smith's do their job.


      Sorry if seams hard to understand, English isn't my native language.
    • In many ways now that AO is almost 2 years old, the economy is similar to real life. Top 2% control the market.

      There is supply and demand that affect things but also decent amount of market manipulation going on.

      I am no economist. Just replying to follow this thread, really. This is something that has interested me for a long time.
      IGN/Discord : Ravenar#2076
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    • Ravenar wrote:

      In many ways now that AO is almost 2 years old, the economy is similar to real life. Top 2% control the market.

      There is supply and demand that affect things but also decent amount of market manipulation going on.

      I am no economist. Just replying to follow this thread, really. This is something that has interested me for a long time.
      I'm always curious about what people mean when they talk about market manipulation. What does that mean to you and how do you think people go about doing it? Like what are some examples?
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • @Piddle

      Because I have not talked to anyone that actually admits doing it, this is pure speculation.

      Example: Recruiter’s Horse last few days.

      One horse was sold for 120M silver. The same day 2 Recruiter Horses were sold ”accidentally” for 10k. Bringing the market price to 40 Mill.

      Someone mentioned this to me and I set a buy order for 79mill. Someone else set a buy order of 80mill. Both of these buy orders were met in just 2 days.


      Example 2: Healing Potions in Bridgewatch

      The prices go at times as low as 6000 then someone buys all and lowest sell orders are close to 10k.

      I have done it too, I list sell order at 7999. When price drops close to 7000 I switch to buying.

      So it is not supply and demand only, but also protecting a price.
      IGN/Discord : Ravenar#2076
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    • Example 3: Gold Market

      At times the margin is abot 500 silver but is very quickly closed. For example 2500 to buy 2020 to sell. If you see this set a buy order at 2021 wait 10 minutes and sell it with nice little profit

      I have seen tis happen early EU morning time. Also as market average is the trade made during that time this is a way to make nice bounces in the graph so people react and either sell or buy.
      IGN/Discord : Ravenar#2076
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      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ravenar ().

    • Yeah, the first one is probably price manipulation. The average price metric is pretty easy to mess with, either accidentally or on purpose, and people aren't always sophisticated enough to notice.

      The other two are pretty normal market making behaviors though. Which is pretty normal healthy economic behavior.

      The question is with the entire scale of the markets volume in silver, how much impact is any of that having on actual economic outcomes. If you start adding up the silver value of daily volumes across the deeper markets in AO, you quickly start getting into the 100s of million or billions of silver in value daily. So balanced against that, playing with the prices of this potion or that mount, doesn't A-mount to a whole lot.
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • In general the economy of the game is petty healthy, is actually petty funny to see micro economy apply in the game (I'm not economist but i see some economic matters in the university) The theory of demand and offer apply very well in this game.

      I really don't think the devs move the price of gold with a invisible hand, the gold is mostly a player thing in general, and is becouse the gold is actually not the main problem in a mmo, the main problem of a mmo is the in game currency, in this case the silver.

      If you have to much silver in the hands of players you create inflation, the people have more silver, so the prices go up becouse the people have the silver to spent, then the sellers have more silver to spent so the prices go up and up, etc.

      That's why we have things like prices in silver to buy island, or to buy seeds and animals for like 6 million silver (Tier 8 animals), the moment you pay a NPC silver, the NPC take the silver and puff, is gone, the silver dissapears from the economy of the game. The only invisible hand here can be the devs selling stuff in the market and then buying expensive stuff to NPC so they can get silver out of the economy.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Xatrax ().

    • Xatrax wrote:

      If you have to much silver in the hands of players you create inflation, the people have more silver, so the prices go up becouse the people have the silver to spent, then the sellers have more silver to spent so the prices go up and up, etc.

      That's why we have things like prices in silver to buy island, or to buy seeds and animals for like 6 million silver (Tier 8 animals), the moment you pay a NPC silver, the NPC take the silver and puff, is gone, the silver dissapears from the economy of the game. The only invisible hand here can be the devs selling stuff in the market and then buying expensive stuff to NPC so they can get silver out of the economy.
      Good point, its a good way to fix that, but this really work? A thing what can show this is the price of a slot in a big city, how much the price grower in this years? 'cause 60,000k seams really expensive. Im really curious to know how the devs keeps the economie fair. If i was in the school I would have liked to study about the economy of Albion.

      Piddle wrote:

      The question is with the entire scale of the markets volume in silver, how much impact is any of that having on actual economic outcomes. If you start adding up the silver value of daily volumes across the deeper markets in AO, you quickly start getting into the 100s of million or billions of silver in value daily. So balanced against that, playing with the prices of this potion or that mount, doesn't A-mount to a whole lot.
      If i got it, you dont think the markets manipulation seems relevant, but, i dont know, its can't become a monopoly? I believe the 2% rich can easily buy-out a lot of stufs and control the market.
    • There is always down sides of the npc metod to get silver out of the economy, one way to get the really rich people to get silver out of the economy is actually the city slots, becouse when they push money to buy the slot, that money don't go to a player, is going to the game (A NPC, and you know what happen to that silver xD ), but if the rich people actually don't use this metod, well, he still have a lot of money and maaaybe can manipulate one or two city markets in some way.

      I mean, maybe 1 or 2 people could buy the entire market of one city if they want but they will lose a lot of money there, you can't stop the offer of all the items of the game just simple buying all the sell orders and then put the item a high price, people always get the prices down so people buy the stuff, and people offer more money in the buy orders to buy the stuff, until buy orders and sell orders meet each other in one price (Good Theory of Demand and Offer rigth there)

      They can monopolize maybe more specific items, like T8 materials, real expensive artifacts weapons and armor and that kind of real rare stuff, but at that point of wealth maybe they only buy like a bunch of GvG season mounts and sell them 3 months later at insane prices to make money, who knows, i get happy when i get a million silver in a day xD they do like 10 million per day
    • There are some battles to create monopolies with city plots, and also the guilds that control Mercia tend to keep the T8 gear they craft for themself, making some T8 artifacts hard to find.

      Other than that, there is no monopolies. Most market items will eventually stabilize if anyone tries to manipulate their prices.For example, carrots have a very high demand, and also a good supply. If anyone tries to manipulate the price of carrots, they could rise or lower the price for a day or two, but they will eventually go back to their "stable" price. These past few months the stable price of carrots have been around 300 silver per carrot. If some one manipulates that price for too long they will eventually start losing money, because of the high supply.
    • Yep, you all are right, the economy seems really health. One thing I was thinking was, we can't compare the real market with the market from Albion, in Albion no one starve! Nobody bankyrupt! The monopoly consists more in choke the competition and then control the entire market, but in Albion we can't choke other player out of game, is more easy with PK then choking in market.


      Holy shit, this discussion just makes me love more this game.
    • Other mechanic that help the economic of the game is actually the Black Market, i think is one of the best mechanic i ever see in a mmo and some people actually don't know how Black Market (BM) works.

      One problem mmo have in a long run is the saturation of equip, there is a moment when you have so much equip in the economy that the value of items starts to go really low and people stop to craft things couse you know, no money, no effort in making anything. If you don't make stuff you don't level up craft skill, so you have a really low population of high level crafters controling the market of high level items.

      When you kill a mob or open a chest you have a X percentage to get let's say a Cape, and let's say is a 10% chance to get that cape, what the game do is when you open a chest and you actually get that 10% chance to get the cape, the game check if the Black Market have the cape in stock, if they have, you get the Cape in your chest, if the BM don't have the cape suddenly creates a Buy Order of that cape, and everytime one player get the 10% change to get that cape but don't have in stock, the prices of that Buy Order go up and eventually the Black Market offer much more money for that cape that the players in the normal market, so players "sell" the items to the game. This mean that everything you drop is actually a item craft by a player, the item not appears from nowhere.

      This make 3 things:

      -Incentive players to craft stuff, couse if the players don't offer much money for a item maybe the Black Market will, so the population of crafters tends to be much more
      -You don't saturate the market with equip couse you are not creating items from nowhere
      -And last, the black market every X time delete half the items in stock, so the prices of the items don't get to low, this with the mechanic of make some of the items you drop when you die convert into trash delete items from the game so you always have demand.
    • Xatrax wrote:

      When you kill a mob or open a chest you have a X percentage to get let's say a Cape, and let's say is a 10% chance to get that cape, what the game do is when you open a chest and you actually get that 10% chance to get the cape, the game check if the Black Market have the cape in stock, if they have, you get the Cape in your chest, if the BM don't have the cape suddenly creates a Buy Order of that cape, and everytime one player get the 10% change to get that cape but don't have in stock, the prices of that Buy Order go up and eventually the Black Market offer much more money for that cape that the players in the normal market, so players "sell" the items to the game. This mean that everything you drop is actually a item craft by a player, the item not appears from nowhere.
      No way! This itens comes from there. This is amazing! I hook some, but I though this itens was dropped itens.
      But this way the game solves the problem of "itens from nowhere", but the money comes from nowhere too, right? Or you think when they "destroy" silver with NPCs its enough to pay the Black Market and left some to control the problem of "printing money" every time someone buy gold and trade with silver.


      Xatrax wrote:

      There is always down sides of the npc metod to get silver out of the economy, one way to get the really rich people to get silver out of the economy is actually the city slots, becouse when they push money to buy the slot, that money don't go to a player, is going to the game (A NPC, and you know what happen to that silver xD ), but if the rich people actually don't use this metod, well, he still have a lot of money and maaaybe can manipulate one or two city markets in some way.
      Wait, when you sell a plot, the money dont goes to you?


      I really want to know if devs studid economy before made this game, how can we evoke they? Saying "coffe" three times, this kind of things?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by HulfHalf ().

    • HulfHalf wrote:

      Xatrax wrote:

      There is always down sides of the npc metod to get silver out of the economy, one way to get the really rich people to get silver out of the economy is actually the city slots, becouse when they push money to buy the slot, that money don't go to a player, is going to the game (A NPC, and you know what happen to that silver xD ), but if the rich people actually don't use this metod, well, he still have a lot of money and maaaybe can manipulate one or two city markets in some way.
      Wait, when you sell a plot, the money dont goes to you?

      If a person sell a city plot yes, he/she get the money, but i mean the city plots who don't have a owner, or when the owner of a city plot have to push to maintain the control of the plot, remember the plots every X time go to an auction, and you have to put a lot of silver, if you win the auction you lose all the money you put to win the plot, and the losers get the silver back. You actually don't know what is the higher push so you maybe ending losing a lot of silver just to make sure you buy the plot, actually this mechanic of not know what the highes push is petty recent, it was implemented a little later of the f2p launch to combat monopoly of city plots in cities (That's why you maybe hear videos where they recommend to start in Bridgewatch or Martlock couse the property of plots was split in various persons, so the crafting Tax was lower)


      HulfHalf wrote:

      No way! This itens comes from there. This is amazing! I hook some, but I though this itens was dropped itens.But this way the game solves the problem of "itens from nowhere", but the money comes from nowhere too, right? Or you think when they "destroy" silver with NPCs its enough to pay the Black Market and left some to control the problem of "printing money" every time someone buy gold and trade with silver.
      Yeah, the game actually creates silver from nowhere this way too (Aside of silver drop by mobs) , but you know, a price to pay to make the economy of the game works. I could mention other ways the game take out silver from the economy like pay to call attacks in war camps for GvG and other stuff but in general i think the game kinda manage well taking out the silver to above some kind of inflation.

      And as i say, the gold is not actually a problem, couse when someone buy gold and sell it for silver this gold just pass hand to hand between players and eventually go out of the game when someone buy premium or now with the last update Skins,the only way to create more gold is by buying gold, and gold don't generate silver from nowhere, the fount of silver in the game is drops, the black market and other little stuff like recycling artifacts into runes to use those runes in create more artifacts (Yeah you can do that)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Xatrax ().