Tired to meet rats in HG 2v2

Blatta · Jul 3rd 2019, 3:55pm

outfit wrote:

Finalhecate wrote:

You should mark the type of rat you are facing..

if you are facing greater nature, start bringing fiend cowl, it's not a bad helmet, can purge positive [except giant on guardian boots].. can purge gear or any positive buff... when you see the greater nature about to use it. ait for it and then purge it. living armor is done and they lose...

if you see the blood letter alone, check his boots.. they usually go in combo of using the explosive mobs to kill you [mob will deal half of your health and he will just execute], have not tried it with giant boots or giant potion where your health is double. but either way just dont fight when you see him attacking the mob...

for ever rat there is an answer, get cooking and you wont have to bother with these rat... i faced many of those rat myself, not one got away.

dude, we go to the HG to fight, not to run after a rat for 30 min... of course we could change our gear, and make a "rat chase set", as you claim, not rats would scape, but thats not the idea, I want to fight, I don't want to run for 30 min after a t4 rat

Such things have potential as a test case for your patience, true. In alpha people leeched lethal mobs on people in t4 dungeons. That completely changed our dg experience that time. (In a good way, some of that situations where kind of groundbreaking for my/our affinity with this game.) Devs fixed it, was sad. Im not saying the situation can't be improved, but reacting to such not-intended-behaviours (hm, its a sandbox, how important is this even) can be experienced as quality content too.

MEATCUP · Jul 3rd 2019, 4:01pm

Grimhawke-EB wrote:

If someone can outplay you 1v2, the problem is with you, not the game.

I've always respected your opinions here so don't take my disagreement personally, but if I design something with an expected behavior and outcome, and the design of said experience permits activities (running) that is not within the scope of design, it's 100% the game's problem.

If their posted stance on HG was 'Running is a totally valid option' I'd have no rock to stand on - yet: albiononline.com/en/news/new-hellgate-design

Specifically:

Hellgate Design Goals

Before we delve into the specifics of the new Hellgates, let’s have a look at their design goals:

Hellgates are about PvP.
Mobs should play no, or a very limited, role in deciding who wins the PvP fight.
Mobs should act as sources for loot and as a time buffer that allow a second team to join the Hellgate before it is finished.
Hellgate strategy should not be affected by artificial game mechanics such as timers.
Dodging the opposing team should not be possible. At the same time, there needs to be a legitimate way out of the Hellgate if something unexpected happens, for example: your healer disconnects.
Camping the opposing team’s entrance should not be a valid strategy.

No one is 'outplaying' anyone - runners are using the oversight in HG design to yoink loot and waste time. If the design was to 'Race through a PvPvE environment to the ending chest before you're opponents!' then yes, you'd have outplayed someone.

Tabor · Jul 3rd 2019, 4:25pm

Well said Meatcup.

outfit · Jul 3rd 2019, 4:37pm

it's just very frustating to go expecting a fight and meet a runner inside, or someone that will even try to steal the main loot, and then run again...

@Dev team - Do you guys want HG to be very frustating at 50% of the times? sometimes even more, really!

I guess everyone does know the answer here... so ACT!

Grimhawke-EB · Jul 3rd 2019, 4:49pm

MEATCUP wrote:

Grimhawke-EB wrote:

If someone can outplay you 1v2, the problem is with you, not the game.

I've always respected your opinions here so don't take my disagreement personally, but if I design something with an expected behavior and outcome, and the design of said experience permits activities (running) that is not within the scope of design, it's 100% the game's problem.
If their posted stance on HG was 'Running is a totally valid option' I'd have no rock to stand on - yet: albiononline.com/en/news/new-hellgate-design

Specifically:

Hellgate Design Goals

Before we delve into the specifics of the new Hellgates, let’s have a look at their design goals:

Hellgates are about PvP.
Mobs should play no, or a very limited, role in deciding who wins the PvP fight.
Mobs should act as sources for loot and as a time buffer that allow a second team to join the Hellgate before it is finished.
Hellgate strategy should not be affected by artificial game mechanics such as timers.
Dodging the opposing team should not be possible. At the same time, there needs to be a legitimate way out of the Hellgate if something unexpected happens, for example: your healer disconnects.
Camping the opposing team’s entrance should not be a valid strategy.

No one is 'outplaying' anyone - runners are using the oversight in HG design to yoink loot and waste time. If the design was to 'Race through a PvPvE environment to the ending chest before you're opponents!' then yes, you'd have outplayed someone.

Thanks - none taken. Likewise, appreciate your posts here as well.

Also appreciate you taking the time to pull their design goals - definitely helpful to have this in mind while we talk about the rats issue.

I guess it comes down to the interpretations of PvP and dodging. In my view, people whose sole goal is to steal the chest, are still engaging in a form of Player vs. Player combat. PvP does not need to have death as at outcome to count, often people talk about other forms of interactions between players (like playing the economic aspects of the game) as forms of PvP. Anyway, the few times I've encountered these guys, they either failed to steal the loot and ran away or ended up dying.

In terms of dodging, without completely changing mobility mechanics such that no single build like a bloodletter is significantly more mobile than any others, people are always going to be able to run away from a fight. Still the 2v2 hellgate arena is not very big, and from my personal experience, even bloodletters are not able to get away from my teammate and I, and neither of us are running particularly mobile builds (curse staff + nature staff). Sure we have to swap abilities.

Tabor · Jul 3rd 2019, 5:00pm

The design issue is the circle. The players can infinitely run in a circle never needing to back track or running into a dead end. The original HG design where each team just loaded into a side would fix this issue. However they would also need to probably change the mini boss design to go along with this as well.

MEATCUP · Jul 3rd 2019, 5:06pm

I acknowledge that 'backing out' or 'lets reset with southscreen' are legit re positioning tactics that should be preserved regarding Hellgates.

I used Hellgates intentionally because while Hellgates are about PvP (SBI's words), PvP doesn't exclusively mean Hellgates. These chest rats already have a spot to yoink PvP enabled chests and it happens at a minimum once an hour - again, within the understood design of the OW hourly PvP chests. It's OW right? No rules!

Should some kits that intend to back in and out of a fight have a chance in Hellgates? Absolutely.

But the intent and design IMHO should force the end to be 'kill them or die trying'

Ultimately, I'm not asking for solos to be banned. I just want the Hellgate to encourage the activity it was designed to provide, and in my opinion, it is failing to do so.

outfit · Jul 3rd 2019, 5:08pm

Tabor wrote:

The design issue is the circle. The players can infinitely run in a circle never needing to back track or running into a dead end. The original HG design where each team just loaded into a side would fix this issue. However they would also need to probably change the mini boss design to go along with this as well.

I agree, the circle design colaborates a lot for it, but they also need to make it impossible to go in alone, it must be 2 to make the fight happen, as I said, when you go to HG there is a expectation for a fight, if it does not happen it's just frustating, how hard is it to find a balanced pvp in Albion? not even on the places that are supposed to happen it's happening.

1 - eliminate the circle design
2 - impossible to go in alone
3 - minimum IP

Maes · Jul 3rd 2019, 5:25pm

Just bring a flat 4 counter rat set with you, anti heal weapons or purges to kill them, or windfalls and pushes to keep them out of the loot. Alternatively accept the free fame and go back in.

The solution to require 2 enter is dumb, what if someone interrupts 1 player from entering the gate? 1st player gets ported out? If its in the party why wouldn't a rat just invite a friend to the group and keep ratting? Finally you think 1 rat is bad, if you could check for all others cases mentioned before you'll just see rats party together and do 2 nature heals and split up and do their own thing. Ohhh whats that a single rat go kill him, and your loot is gone b/c the other rat took it and left. Guard the chest and counter boop for gear, ohhh nooo they have 4x boops and we cant get to the chest.

My solution would be adding in a final boss to the middle instead of a chest, then have loot protection / healing for 15 seconds, put the majority of fame onto it. And now you encourage people to go in with a strong comp that can take down the boss and fight 2v2's. A rat cant steal it b/c of protections and couldn't win the 1v2 under boss. With majority of fame and spoils going only to the winner / killer of the boss Ratting wouldn't be nearly as profitable.

outfit · Jul 3rd 2019, 5:38pm

Maes wrote:

Just bring a flat 4 counter rat set with you, anti heal weapons or purges to kill them, or windfalls and pushes to keep them out of the loot. Alternatively accept the free fame and go back in.

The solution to require 2 enter is dumb, what if someone interrupts 1 player from entering the gate? 1st player gets ported out? If its in the party why wouldn't a rat just invite a friend to the group and keep ratting? Finally you think 1 rat is bad, if you could check for all others cases mentioned before you'll just see rats party together and do 2 nature heals and split up and do their own thing. Ohhh whats that a single rat go kill him, and your loot is gone b/c the other rat took it and left. Guard the chest and counter boop for gear, ohhh nooo they have 4x boops and we cant get to the chest.

My solution would be adding in a final boss to the middle instead of a chest, then have loot protection / healing for 15 seconds, put the majority of fame onto it. And now you encourage people to go in with a strong comp that can take down the boss and fight 2v2's. A rat cant steal it b/c of protections and couldn't win the 1v2 under boss. With majority of fame and spoils going only to the winner / killer of the boss Ratting wouldn't be nearly as profitable.

I will then take 4 options of gears to deal with players that are in HG and don't want to fight... really?

They could easly create a solution to enter the gate togheter... you cancel one guy, you cancel both of them... or anything.

I went to a 2 vs 2 fight, if I win, I want to see 2 bodies on the dance floor! killing the final boss or looting the main chest is not the only goal! this is PVP.

Finalhecate · Jul 3rd 2019, 6:07pm

outfit wrote:

Finalhecate wrote:

You should mark the type of rat you are facing..

if you are facing greater nature, start bringing fiend cowl, it's not a bad helmet, can purge positive [except giant on guardian boots].. can purge gear or any positive buff... when you see the greater nature about to use it. ait for it and then purge it. living armor is done and they lose...

if you see the blood letter alone, check his boots.. they usually go in combo of using the explosive mobs to kill you [mob will deal half of your health and he will just execute], have not tried it with giant boots or giant potion where your health is double. but either way just dont fight when you see him attacking the mob...

for ever rat there is an answer, get cooking and you wont have to bother with these rat... i faced many of those rat myself, not one got away.

dude, we go to the HG to fight, not to run after a rat for 30 min... of course we could change our gear, and make a "rat chase set", as you claim, not rats would scape, but thats not the idea, I want to fight, I don't want to run for 30 min after a t4 rat

dude you are represented with a challange. is it up to you to find a way around it..

"dude, we go to the HG to fight",

Gank wrote:

Or we could just nerf the loot value by 50% and no rats would ever join again...?

If you aren't prepared to deal with chest rats, why should you get a say on whether they can enter or not? You can bring any item combination you want, so stop being lazy and counter them(easily.

Than im gonna have to agree with gank here.. nerf it. or put it back the way it was, when it was empty!... i had to go back to the creepy pasta to look at some threads.

youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7V4dfezjs

there are legimate problems of hellgate: forum.albiononline.com/index.p…Bof%2Bhellgate#post918614..

however if you put it in a way that only the true fighters will go in for fight. not fame, not reward, hellgate will become the same empty that it was before... probably roaming inside waiting and hoping for another true fighter to show up...

Atm SBI is catering to the f2p, not how the hellgate was or the design of it... I guess they should of buffed it once. and after players were saying "it isn't enough" they should of ignore it... PLayers found away to gain fame in hellgate and made it their own content to do this.. balacing this will be hard. cause pleasing you means displeasing the massive...

all honesty i didnt like the double buff. the first one should of been enough. hellgate was design for fair fight and majority to attract fighter for fair right.. However, player QQ about how empty it was and how no one will go in there for a fight..

Look at blue hellgate, you go in blue hellgate to pratice not to fight as if it was a staple fame farm run... not until i did two vids that i started to notice.. oh crap 10 run 8 insight tome.. blue zone hellgate? huh no wonder people coming in in 6.3 even though there is a soft cap of 700ip... easy insight tomes.... [see they are there for fame farming, not fighting]...

wish you good luck on the balancing, they already moved some of the fame to the main boss in 5v5, some how the 2v2 got affected and player started QQ, another nerf= massive QQ [example 6:32 video a mod said it was intended. dev didn't say anything untilt player piled up a complain so massive it shook the entire forum, so dev then responded with a "mistake" and fixed it..]

dont click.

Display Spoiler

Finalhecate · Jul 3rd 2019, 6:16pm

outfit wrote:

I will then take 4 options of gears to deal with players that are in HG and don't want to fight... really?

They could easly create a solution to enter the gate togheter... you cancel one guy, you cancel both of them... or anything.

I went to a 2 vs 2 fight, if I win, I want to see 2 bodies on the dance floor! killing the final boss or looting the main chest is not the only goal! this is PVP.

The only chest rat i see around is a greater nature and maybe a blood letter....

a greater nature can be defeated with an easy purge, just 1 fiend cowl all it takes and fiend cowl gives great benefits over all.
even without it so long as you ignore his living armor mechanic and go hard after you can still beat them... [timestamped video]
either way, 1 fiend cowl not a whole change set up is all you need for that..

that leaves you with a blood letter, and all honesty i doubt he is gonna go in attack the chest and try to run out... with 0 heals, the best thing he can do is giant boots but then will meet the match of player using run.. and majorit of blood letter just tries to kill you with the teleport into mobs execute...

So can you type here what other rat are you running into trouble with beside the above?

outfit · Jul 3rd 2019, 6:35pm

the map design itself could counter those runners if it was not round (circle). Sayng anything about bringing more gear to counter one guy that's not there to fight does not make sense for me, really.

The thing is, the way it is today is really frustating for those who are seeking PVP.

Finalhecate · Jul 3rd 2019, 6:41pm

outfit wrote:

the map design itself could counter those runners if it was not round (circle). Sayng anything about bringing more gear to counter one guy that's not there to fight does not make sense for me, really.

The thing is, the way it is today is really frustating for those who are seeking PVP.

1 gear..... 1 gear.... 1 gear..... 1 gear.... 1 gear... [echo] gear [lower echo] gear [lower lower lower echo] gear...

you still haven't said what type of rat you meeting, but atm it only takes 1 gear..... 1 gear.... 1 gear..... 1 gear.... 1 gear... [echo] gear [lower echo] gear [lower lower lower echo] gear...
^,^

outfit · Jul 3rd 2019, 6:53pm

because that still not the point, it doesn't matter if it's a druid, if it's a rappier, if it's 2 druids...

There are changes that can be done to avoid this unsportsmanlike behaviour, the intenttion there is not to do an endless run after one guy that does not want to fight.

Finalhecate · Jul 3rd 2019, 7:00pm

outfit wrote:

because that still not the point, it doesn't matter if it's a druid, if it's a rappier, if it's 2 druids...

There are changes that can be done to avoid this unsportsmanlike behaviour, the intenttion there is not to do an endless run after one guy that does not want to fight.

Well good luck my man ^,^. back to dragon dogma

outfit · Jul 3rd 2019, 7:07pm

as more than 50% of 2vs2 HellGates nowdays you will find one of those rats alone, it really doesn't surprise me at all to see people posting here that it is great like it is, just run after them for 10 min and counter them... sure!

let's remember what we are talking about here

HellGates = Consensual PVP - it means both sides want it!

Finalhecate · Jul 3rd 2019, 7:19pm

outfit wrote:

as more than 50% of 2vs2 HellGates nowdays you will find one of those rats alone, it really doesn't surprise me at all to see people posting here that it is great like it is, just run after them for 10 min and counter them... sure!

let's remember what we are talking about here

HellGates = Consensual PVP - it means both sides want it!

it's ok brother, ill keep you company... wanna watch some rat video together?

<-- carefully listen to the so called [renow king of rat.. you know how player like to make titles for themself].. purge...

youtube.com/watch?v=xvgdHdFw99Q&t=2249s kinda the same thing i taught 4 days back of how to kill those pesky greater nature, ratties....

S0o0o while you wait for others to respond. wanna grab a popcorn and watch the so called rat king?

i mean look he made this video right here, youtube.com/watch?v=Mn1Qx3oZHhA&t=341s about 1v7 [not really the title, 1v7 is you vs 7 people not mob or boss vs 7 but what ever]..
even player are being inspire by his stuff.

we can both have fun watching these?, i been watching also
Food Wars! Shokugeki no Souma

so i can probably cook us some mean omelette t7 ^.^

ps. you liked my comment but make sure to comment when someone bump their thread. to keep this thread ontop.
that techincally what im doing atm.. keeping it with topic about the rat[other wise it moves to banter], keeping the thread top 1 above all others, and keeping you company.. didnt saw that strat uh XD

Finalhecate · Jul 3rd 2019, 7:32pm

outfit wrote:

as more than 50% of 2vs2 HellGates nowdays you will find one of those rats alone, it really doesn't surprise me at all to see people posting here that it is great like it is, just run after them for 10 min and counter them... sure!

let's remember what we are talking about here

HellGates = Consensual PVP - it means both sides want it!

btw imgur.com/a/ZcG4sCG old picture of hellgate... the one on the right? is that better? XDDD

SevenLights · Jul 3rd 2019, 8:01pm

A good number of players that are willing to invest their time in 2v2 HGs dislike having to chase loot oriented players. Because it is lame.

Yes. For us, chasing around other people for minutes in a row is lame.
Having people go invis on top of the loot is lame.
Having to quickly click the loot is lame.
Carrying multiple sets to deal with lame content... yes, you guessed it... is LAME.

We actually prefer to invest our limited time with the game in good fights that actually earn the loot! Go figure that!

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