The Truths Behind The Caerleon Marketplace Speculations

    • Bogul wrote:

      Taniwhaa wrote:

      (....)


      If I understand it correctly this means players who use Carleon for crafting etc have dramatically increased grinds to do anything. Does this affect players in big guilds or is this just a blow to the small time players?

      The reason I'm asking is because one of the worst parts of any MMO is the grind and from my ill informed perspective Vasorts remarkable feat is to have dramatically increased the grind in this game for some players. Sort of like he gets rich by making the game worse for others. I guess you don't have to go to Caerleon but the newbie stuff I've read points you towards Caerleon as the place you base when you get your big boots on.

      Explanation would be appreciated because from the cheap seats it looks like Vasort is a leech. Adds nothing and subtracts much.
      No, you're correct. The temporary result for new players is that you pay more per craft. And that is a short-term negative experience for you - especially if you don't understand the reason behind it. But argueably that would also be true for the gold-market beeing player-driven - going up. So if you pay any attention to the game mechanics at all - you should be aware that you are playing a game where this is a feature of the game-system(s) and not a bug.

      Remarkable in a sense because of the scale and because it creates a worry that the generated income over the month is so massive due to the tax hike that they can force massive losses on anyone who wants to compete with them, however the whole plot-auction system is a feature that is (in my opinion) not well understood by the players, nor do enough people actually care about it enough. A lot of this is just drama and people making shit up for attention.

      If the cartel can easily defend the cities indefinately, then its a long-term problem.

      And that potentially is really an issue as I would estimate there need to be bids made where someone is just comfortable taking a 250m+ loss to break the monopoly (for fun).

      The real numbers are somewhat like this: for a T6.0 item - that based on current market prices - costs about 50.000 (+-) Silver to make, a crafting station fee of maybe 300-500 silver per craft was the norm, now has about a 800-1000s stall fee (not exact, but ballpark). Food (and alchemy?) is impacted differently and maybe on a level described below.

      The real relation of 50.000 vs 500 or vs 100 is overall seen not really big and it gets a bit worse at higher tiers (i believe?), but its in my mind not game-breaking bad. 300% + / 500% fees would probably actually be gamebreaking. 500s more per craft is just something you can put on top of your sales price and not care about it.

      Another fact is that if you're a noob you shouldn't necessarily be in Caerleon yet - progression wise - if 500s more per craft breaks your bank. And in addition to that, why don't you pick a different place to craft?
      this is so triggering,

      i am also a new player and

      1) isnt this a sandbox game? carleon is not the big bad endgame city as you make it out to be, i went to carleon right the first day i started playing the game, after seeing lewpacs video guides...

      2) its not remarkable to form a cartell, as i understood correctly there were cartells already and there are real life examples to streal the idea from, nonetheless it is still VERY interesting, your choice of words shows your admiration towards the cartell,
      and that i find very very shocking as you are a representative of albion online... imagine how this looks to other people? if the drug cartel takes over cnn and fox and all they re doing is praysing how awesome they are by selling drugs!

      3) you on your high horse and deep pocket might not realize it, but as a new player 50% tax is already tooo high, it might not be game breaking high, but it certainly is up there
    • SecretTim wrote:

      this is so triggering,


      i am also a new player and

      1) isnt this a sandbox game? carleon is not the big bad endgame city as you make it out to be, i went to carleon right the first day i started playing the game, after seeing lewpacs video guides...

      2) its not remarkable to form a cartell, as i understood correctly there were cartells already and there are real life examples to streal the idea from, nonetheless it is still VERY interesting, your choice of words shows your admiration towards the cartell,
      and that i find very very shocking as you are a representative of albion online... imagine how this looks to other people? if the drug cartel takes over cnn and fox and all they re doing is praysing how awesome they are by selling drugs!

      3) you on your high horse and deep pocket might not realize it, but as a new player 50% tax is already tooo high, it might not be game breaking high, but it certainly is up there

      I'm not quite sure what you're saying dude?

      1) Yes... its a sandbox? Caerleon is in fact the "end-game ciy", with guild plots in the outlands argueably being a bit more "end-game" if you live there.

      2) It is very remarkable for this to come together the way it did. I like these kinds of stories, yes - especially since my playstyle is tilted towards the economy aspecs of the game more so than others - so this sort of situation to me personally is very very much the "end-game" of economic PvP - and you "only" need about 5 billion Silver to pull this off. Tell me this is not a big deal.

      To be clear on your other remark: "representative of albion online" - what do you mean here? Together with Shozen and many other people I am trying to tell interesting stories that happen in a video game. I'm not quite sure how you confuse virtual pixel storytelling with drug cartels, CNN and FOX?

      Its like you're saying the logistical challenges of running a drug cartel aren't interesting because they are selling drugs. Please bro. The illegality, secrecy and underhandedness is exactly what makes that more interesting.

      3) Can you please give me 3 examples of where the 50% tax hurts you so much that its "tooo" much and you have no options?

      Seeing all this discussion, by now I am at a point where I would love to see them raising everything to 999% for a week just for fun.
    • Bogul wrote: "If the cartel can easily defend the cities indefinately, then its a long-term problem."

      Little fun fact. I lost my weaver in Caerleon two auctions ago. Just missed to log on on Sunday. This last auction i took ca. 200m and placed randomly bids on around 30 plots. I got a plot. It took me 200m, from which i got 196m back and ca. 15m to (theoretically*) BREAK THE CARTEL lel.
    • Bogul wrote:

      And that is a short-term negative experience for you
      Which is short-term because a player said it is. If that player 'decides' to raises taxes to 300% or 1000% then there is nobody to intervene and tell him but you said it is short-term and instead you would have been a victim of good faith to a guy called vasort or bogul or saya or diva or whoever. In then meantime, when that player is capable of raising taxes to 300% or 1000% it will be even harder to fight him by breaking the cartel, cause in the meantime his 20B will have became 200B.
    • Bogul wrote:

      Seeing all this discussion, by now I am at a point where I would love to see them raising everything to 999% for a week just for fun.
      Well that says it all then doesnt it. You'd like to see pretty much all players (except those in your friends cartel on associate rates) have their gameplay ruined ... for fun. Even though the vast majority of players have had no part in this discussion. Nice.
      Midgard
      T8 Fibre, Ore, Hide, Wood & Stone Gatherer
      T8 Gathering Gear Crafter
      T8 Bags & Capes Crafter
    • Thanks for the answer Bogul.

      Can you clarify what tax % the station crafting fees you mention correspond to? ie 69% tax in Caerleon = what on a tier 6 item worth 50k silver.

      Which is more efficient to craft on then - a personal island with no tax or a city with tax and higher resource return rates? If the resource value is 50x the value of the tax then is the city better?
    • Midgard wrote:

      Bogul wrote:

      Seeing all this discussion, by now I am at a point where I would love to see them raising everything to 999% for a week just for fun.
      Well that says it all then doesnt it. You'd like to see pretty much all players (except those in your friends cartel on associate rates) have their gameplay ruined ... for fun. Even though the vast majority of players have had no part in this discussion. Nice.
      No it doesnt. You're putting words into my mouth. You responding like this just shows you trying to make up shit.. for fun. Part of what I'm criticising with this debate as well.

      kreeshak wrote:

      Bogul wrote:

      And that is a short-term negative experience for you
      Which is short-term because a player said it is. If that player 'decides' to raises taxes to 300% or 1000% then there is nobody to intervene and tell him but you said it is short-term and instead you would have been a victim of good faith to a guy called vasort or bogul or saya or diva or whoever. In then meantime, when that player is capable of raising taxes to 300% or 1000% it will be even harder to fight him by breaking the cartel, cause in the meantime his 20B will have became 200B.
      .. or 0B because nobody is using the stations anymore with that tax?

      Taniwhaa wrote:

      Thanks for the answer Bogul.

      Can you clarify what tax % the station crafting fees you mention correspond to? ie 69% tax in Caerleon = what on a tier 6 item worth 50k silver.

      Which is more efficient to craft on then - a personal island with no tax or a city with tax and higher resource return rates? If the resource value is 50x the value of the tax then is the city better?
      I don't understand your question. Sorry. The most "efficient" thing is always using focus on the refiner & crafter + city bonus returns + using journals + buyorders for mats or a combination of this, depending on how you value your time - and that I can not answer for you. What do you mean with 50x value of tax?
    • What I mean/have realized is that if the value of an item is 50k and the city tax is 1k then it is no big deal as the crafting bonus's of cities are bigger than the tax. As a new player you see a tax rate of 39% and think its 39% of the market value of the object which it plainly is not.

      I've found a good crafting calculator and it has answered most of my questions. As you say cities are the place to craft so I no longer feel the pressure to get an island.
    • Bogul wrote:

      No it doesnt. You're putting words into my mouth. You responding like this just shows you trying to make up shit
      Your statement was very clear. If thats not what you meant then could you please explain how it would be "fun" to see 999% tax and effectively exclude one part of the game from all players except those with associate rates? What part of that is fun to you?
      Midgard
      T8 Fibre, Ore, Hide, Wood & Stone Gatherer
      T8 Gathering Gear Crafter
      T8 Bags & Capes Crafter
    • Midgard wrote:

      Bogul wrote:

      No it doesnt. You're putting words into my mouth. You responding like this just shows you trying to make up shit
      Your statement was very clear. If thats not what you meant then could you please explain how it would be "fun" to see 999% tax and effectively exclude one part of the game from all players except those with associate rates? What part of that is fun to you?
      In the same way it is fun to watch videos on those sites where they have camera footage of real people getting hit by cars or buses or whatever. Sometimes people just really enjoy watching a giant shit show.

      Bogul is a lover of all things rent seeking. Casinos, potato guilds, "Bag and Cape Cartels". The biggest difference between him and Saya has always been that Saya actually sticks to things and executes on their plan. Where Bogul spams ideas and then just lets them die off when it turns out that coming up with plans is easy and executing plans is work.

      That said, he does a lot of work for the community, or at least appears to do a lot for the community (Also Saya?). I've certainly given him a lot more passes on pretty shitty ideas and plans in the past (mostly of the "please implement a feature that will allow me to generate more silver" nature), but his new position as SBI representative and Cartel lackey is sorta pushing all the good will away.

      When you are using your work for the community to gain a platform to support shitty anti-competitive, anti-player policies, are you really supporting the community at all, or are you just going to run off with the loot later?

      --------

      What we really sort of glossed over is why SBI is giving a platform to Vasort, via Cartel lackey Bogul for them to both shit all over VOC (somewhat warranted), but also to paint anyone that complains about it as, and I quote, "EVERY KID IN THE GAME NEEDED TO HAVE THEMSELVES A TANTRUM"

      The official position of SBI is now that anyone who complains about the Caerleon cartel is just a whining baby. You heard it from Shozen and Bogul. Vasort is good and VOC needs to be "kicked so hard in his rumpus that it just sticks in there"

      This FOX news'esque VOC hit piece supported and condoned by the developers of this "player run economy" was prepared DAYS IN ADVANCED of the event it was in response to.

      What is even going on.

      "We are going to take a break from our normal GvG episode..." TO SUPPORT AND REINFORCE THE IDEA THAT 50%+ taxes are good and morally right, and that anyone who complains about them is just being a childish loser who should shut up.

      Which was also, coincidentally, Saya's position.

      I don't know why SBI is climbing into the slime of the monopoly vs anti-monopoly shit show, but if they are going to, they shouldn't pick a side. Except of course, they picked a side a long time ago and this is just more proof of that.
      ..QQ _^..^_/ QQ..
      (not to be eaten!)
    • Never thought I'd so strongly agree with a brony in my whole life but here we are.

      What gets me riled up are these people like Bogul and Vasort who claim some moral high ground and try to defend themselves from an obviously indefensible position. You people actually became so complacent that you just revealed so much about your personal character so now nobody will ever trust a single word you say.

      But what makes me laugh more than anything is that Bogul claims to be this great person who's anti-racist and hates Trump and all that virtue signaling bullshit but really he just turns out to be the biggest money grubbing piece of shit in the game. You backed up Saya and his ponzi scheme and I'm surprised you didn't get any flak for that. I guess everything is forgiven if you just go on the forums once in a while and get mad at people that say the n word or whatever the fuck you feel like being a hypocrite about.
    • Piddle wrote:



      The official position of SBI is now that anyone who complains about the Caerleon cartel is just a whining baby. You heard it from Shozen and Bogul. Vasort is good and VOC needs to be "kicked so hard in his rumpus that it just sticks in there"
      Was not was I heard in the video. I heard at least Shozen told a few times that what Vasort did is to be seen problematical to some point. On the other hand both disliked how Voc communicated, calling people idiot and himself hero - dunno, haven't read/seen that. But that's a completely different story then you are telling here. Drama Lama ;)
    • Lets try and focused on the problem at hand instead of taking things so personally.

      Vasort wrote:

      E. Lastly, I want to talk about how this bidding systems which is served by Albion Online put shop owners in a tight spot and how this system caused that high taxes. In addition, I will give example about why there cannot be a low tax system under this conditions with exact numbers from the last month.


      From here, I have some words to the DEVs.


      I am reading forums for two months but couldn’t see any clue about how shop owners have disadvantage while managing their shops. By this post, I want to give you and the players an example. I am also considering to write a detailed information about this topic as a e-mail before I am taking another break to Albion Online (unfortunately I am thinking to give a 1-year break to the game).


      Here is the example of current situation:


      I defended my shops in cost of 1.25B silver and I knew that lots of other shop owners spend 1B+ silver to defend their shops as well. This was the heaviest bidding term of Caerleon history.


      Spending 1.25B silver means they attacked me 2.50B silver. They caused me to spend 1.25B and they lost nothing after that bidding. We are aware of how much they bid to us.


      Now I have two messages. One to the bidders and the next one to the DEVs.


      As you understand too I know which ‘super hero’ bids me how much during the last two months. If I let them win with defending my shop via a little less than how much they bid last months, I am able to earn 5-months income at once and they will loose 5-months income at the same moment.


      And with that economic advantage, bidding advantage comes to me while defending disadvantage goes to them. Let me clarify you, I have an excel table that I know how much each shop is earning with what taxes! So I know who is earning what..


      If I let you win the auction and will bid you every month, not to win the auction but to finish you, you have no chance to survive. You will loose everything you have and in addition you also let me have all 5-months of income.


      I am underlining the truths but you are trying to manipulate things to show them as threats. Once more I am saying that if we let you win the auctions, with that attitude, you will loose everything you have got. I am warning you about the danger, I will be very sorry if I see you here crying once again if you even have lots of shops.


      If my intention was negative, I will let them win the auctions and will destroy their economy and then re-gather those shops without any competitors. I know which shop earns what with which taxes and I have both economical and also in-game power. If my intention was negative, I can broke all the city marketplaces with that system because attacking has no drawbacks while defending the shops has lots of disadvantages. In addition, we are cartel as some asserted, we will have much more silver than I have individually to break this protest.


      I can break the new system without loosing even 1 silver with bidding them the true prices.


      So by giving that example I have shared my worries to the DEVs too. This system is totally broken and some are trying to charge it to us. While we are doing nothing wrong.


      All in all, I tried to explain the truths behind the lies. This is my last 2 months in the game and my purpose is to set a reasonable system to Caerleon and give a long break.


      By the way I am not a person using forums to pvp but this time I decided to explain myself to ones who does not know about the truth and being manipulated from cheap heroes.

      .


      Best Regards,


      Vasort

      A la plonge #pfp.

      This part is what i think needs the most attention, If the city owner is getting 25% of total bids then it is encouraged to try and create the highest plot price they can, weather they let it happen naturally(with zero risk besides a 20v20 once a month?) or they invest billions at auction with the intention of getting 100% of it back at the end of auction, the only risk they face is actually winning the plot and having to manage it with 'the cartel' or off sell it to someone else.
      They could tell the entire 'cartel' that they all will be getting 100m bids on all plots this month and if they dont want to pay, they will simply be brought out, with 25% of total bids offsetting this cost.

      That seems to be when Vasort comes along and trys to implement a tax & district system so all(?) plot owners can make a profit after accounting for this bid.

      Also im a new plot owner so can anyone tell me if the new blind auction also mean anonymous?
      Which would of been a huge boost to this bigger city cartel, blind bids + anonymous bids?

      @Vasort

      My question to you is how do you plan to incorporate any new plot owners that come along into your system?
      and how do you think devs should implemented a change to fix that current issue of inflated plot prices being offset with high taxes?
      is 5B in bids and 50%+ tax going to become the norm if we account for the city owners cut too?

      How do you think plots would function if SBI simply sunk the entire 50% of total bids?
      They could offset the silver loss to city owners by giving them season points, and it wouldn't encourage them to invest into plots with an added advantage.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by F20 ().

    • Piddle wrote:

      Midgard wrote:

      Bogul wrote:

      No it doesnt. You're putting words into my mouth. You responding like this just shows you trying to make up shit
      Your statement was very clear. If thats not what you meant then could you please explain how it would be "fun" to see 999% tax and effectively exclude one part of the game from all players except those with associate rates? What part of that is fun to you?
      In the same way it is fun to watch videos on those sites where they have camera footage of real people getting hit by cars or buses or whatever. Sometimes people just really enjoy watching a giant shit show.

      Not a super big fan of you two guys beeing trolls and turning this into petty personal reputation pvp though.

      Piddle wrote:

      Where Bogul spams ideas and then just lets them die off when it turns out that coming up with plans is easy and executing plans is work.

      And ofc you've always seen through everything you ever did after oportunities, interests or circumstances change, why the petty personal attacks bro?

      Piddle wrote:

      That said, he does a lot of work for the community, or at least appears to do a lot for the community (Also Saya?). I've certainly given him a lot more passes on pretty shitty ideas and plans in the past (mostly of the "please implement a feature that will allow me to generate more silver" nature), but his new position as SBI representative and Cartel lackey is sorta pushing all the good will away.

      Saya? lol

      Why do I care about you giving me a pass? So now I need to "brace" myself for more bullshit you'll throw at me in the future. Ok then. Ty for letting me know.

      "SBI Representative and Cartel Lackey"

      I should put that on my name card.

      But in all seriousness though, maybe @Shozen and @Elsa can clear up this misunderstanding as to how much we are "representatives" of SBI on the AO Daily Show.

      We're first and foremost telling stories about what's happening in Albion while trying to be neutral and trying to represent all sides equally based on the information we have. That doesn't mean we're not allowed to have opinions as you seem to suggest. And in the end this whole thread is proof positive that this is in fact an interesting story.

      Piddle wrote:

      When you are using your work for the community to gain a platform to support shitty anti-competitive, anti-player policies, are you really supporting the community at all, or are you just going to run off with the loot later?

      Everyone's time will come at some point. But so far I've been here for 6 years and do not see myself going away any time soon. Not sure what you're implying here?

      Piddle wrote:

      --------

      What we really sort of glossed over is why SBI is giving a platform to Vasort, via Cartel lackey Bogul for them to both shit all over VOC (somewhat warranted), but also to paint anyone that complains about it as, and I quote, "EVERY KID IN THE GAME NEEDED TO HAVE THEMSELVES A TANTRUM"

      The official position of SBI is now that anyone who complains about the Caerleon cartel is just a whining baby. You heard it from Shozen and Bogul. Vasort is good and VOC needs to be "kicked so hard in his rumpus that it just sticks in there"

      This FOX news'esque VOC hit piece supported and condoned by the developers of this "player run economy" was prepared DAYS IN ADVANCED of the event it was in response to.

      What is even going on.

      You are making shit up and now you're putting out factually false statements that missrepresent SBI, thats whats going on.

      SBI has in-fact no "official" position on this, as far as I'm aware.

      Piddle wrote:

      "We are going to take a break from our normal GvG episode..." TO SUPPORT AND REINFORCE THE IDEA THAT 50%+ taxes are good and morally right, and that anyone who complains about them is just being a childish loser who should shut up.

      Which was also, coincidentally, Saya's position.

      I don't know why SBI is climbing into the slime of the monopoly vs anti-monopoly shit show, but if they are going to, they shouldn't pick a side. Except of course, they picked a side a long time ago and this is just more proof of that.

      aight bro - i don't even

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Bogul ().

    • Bogul I'm not sure about the figures you gave. I went and made an oustanding Adept spear today - my first adept weapon. It wasn't in the optimal city, Fort Sterling, so I could have got a better rate of resources returned but that is not the point. On the market place it it worth 2.5k - seems strangely low as it is the same for normal but ok. I refined my materials at either 29% or 39% tax and made the spear at 29% tax. I used focus. In making my item worth 2.5k I spent around 1.2k in tax plus I collected the materials. I'm sure a veteran player will do this more efficiently but I got hammered by the tax which seems far more punitive than your calculations.
    • Taniwhaa wrote:

      Bogul I'm not sure about the figures you gave. I went and made an oustanding Adept spear today - my first adept weapon. It wasn't in the optimal city, Fort Sterling, so I could have got a better rate of resources returned but that is not the point. On the market place it it worth 2.5k - seems strangely low as it is the same for normal but ok. I refined my materials at either 29% or 39% tax and made the spear at 29% tax. I used focus. In making my item worth 2.5k I spent around 1.2k in tax plus I collected the materials. I'm sure a veteran player will do this more efficiently but I got hammered by the tax which seems far more punitive than your calculations.
      Its sad that you make more in most cases selling the material than the crafted item.