The Truths Behind The Caerleon Marketplace Speculations

    • You guys have made a cartel on Caerleon and when someone comes and put a fair tax you complain about it? (he bought the plot, so he can put the tax that he wants to, if he is not profting is not your problem, and he will not stand for much time doing this if he is really not profting), if someone wants to put a lower taxe you don't have the right to complain about it. That's how the economy should work. Supply and demand not cartels.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Miech ().

    • You guys both have valid points, but going through all of this for 2 things stand out for me:
      1. Vasort is farily open about wanting to make profit and gives out more information than we ever had before about the plot business ; yes thats a cartel by definition and price gouging isn't cool in RL, but in-game thats okay and a good strategy
      2. VOC disqualifies himself largely due to his choice of words (calling Vasort an idiot multiple times and dragging the discussion down to a personal and insulting level instead of staying with the numbers (that also have issues)) while beeing massively attention seeking (I'M THE HERO) in the process (VOC being VOC with Trump rhetoric)
      Bogul#6397 - Merchants of the Mist - Founder & Head of "Management"

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Bogul ().

    • Bogul wrote:

      You guys both have valid points, but going through all of this for 2 things stand out for me:
      1. Vasort is farily open about wanting to make profit and gives out more information than we ever had before about the plot business ; yes thats a cartel by definition and price gouging isn't cool in RL, but in-game thats okay and a good strategy
      2. VOC disqualifies himself largely due to his choice of words (calling Vasort an idiot multiple times and dragging the discussion down to a personal and insulting level instead of staying with the numbers (that also have issues)) while beeing massively attention seeking (I'M THE HERO) in the process (VOC being VOC with Trump rhetoric)

      Do not forget

      - Vasort playing the victim, doing private and public threats
      - VOC showing actual proofs that he's lying about defense plot cost

      We can discuss also about unrealistic expectation of the cartel and player behavior but I don't think this is the right place.

      I do believe that VOC over react and curse a lot (easy to trigger) but you also can't denied the arrogance and how shitty Vasort sound too. Both players are the pinnacle of a sandbox game player.
    • I've had this conversation with Piddle many times, and I stand by this assertion:

      However I make my money is the only moral and virtuous way to do so and everyone else is an immoral devil. So if I am the mega alliance profiting off of the near exclusive access to T8 materials then the system is good, and I am virtuous, and any other manner of profit is evil and the profiteers are devils. And if I am the Bogul profiting off my journals and the system generated silver of the Black Market then the system is good, and I am virtuous, and any other manner of profit is evil and the profiteers are devils. And if I am the Vasort profiting off my cartel and the player generated silver then the system is good, and I am virtuous, and any other manner of profit is evil and the profiteers are devils. And if I am the Saya then I run off with the money off a bunch of profiteering devils, and they had it coming.

      Everyone else wants shit for free. And, by the way, where's my down time compensation?
    • They're both looking to profit. No one should think that anyone involved is behaving selflessly. Biglulu has the gist of it. If you come into this with the assumption that you HAVE to defend your plot every month, then the only way for a city plot to be profitable under long term bidding pressure is to fix prices with the other owners.

      Biglulu wrote:

      Your obvious issue is that you are treating the shops as something permanent. You want to defend them at all cost. This is not how you do business.
      If the shop generates 45M revenue a month like you said, obviously you don't bid more than 45M max. Less if you care about profit. If someone outbids you let that idiot take the loss and you can move elsewhere
      I agree that it is possible to profit on a free market if you bail when the market gets too competitive and come back when the market is favorable again. I never cared to get into this business previously but since this drama reared its head, I've been checking in on some monthly bids and there are still a lot of plots that are often basically uncontested. It's easy to say that the plots lose money when the market is the most competitive but there's been a LOT of times where the market has been really favorable and that's being glossed over. Plot owners don't sit on their dozen stations for months and months because they're losing money. They're being honest when they say that they sometimes lose money but it is not accurately painting the entire picture.
    • tbh what i dont understand why no1 has made the calculations / a calculator on their own...

      Lets take VOCs numbers since he is the one thats more transparent about it:

      So he made 232.000.000 Silver in a 27day Cycle => thats basically a 100% Usage with 15% Taxes
      Not sure anymore where I got that frm but it should have beend around 1.500 Stews per day
      so its like:


      Source Code

      1. 169.253.000 Income from Vocs Forge
      2. - 60.750.000 => 1.5k per food and 1.500 Food per day (Voc Paied like 53kk)
      3. - 45.000.000 Bidding on the plot
      4. - 12.000.000 Bulding Plot
      5. - 3.240.000 Repair
      6. ___________________________
      7. 48.263.000 Profit
      8. Expenses if kept (all - Building) = 108.990.000 Silver
      9. Income from Forge every month = 169.253.000 Silver => RoI = 55.3%!!!!!
      10. + You get money back when u loose plot and demolish building ( thats what Voc calcs for profit .. dont know why though .. makes no sense since its a 1 time thing)
      Display All



      SOO next step: Adjust the Usage which also results in less Food (not sure about Repair so leave it the same)
      Idk if 25% usage is a too high assumption?! but if we take that and keep the Bidding thesame and adjust the Taxes to 30%?
      That makes a total Earning from the plot of: 92.800.000


      Source Code

      1. 84.626.500 Earnings (25% Usage only and 30% Tax)
      2. - 45.000.000 Bid / Bidding Defence
      3. - 15.187.500 Food (adjusted to 25% Usage)
      4. - 12.000.000 Building costs (Maybe leave that even out?)
      5. - 3.240.000 Repair
      6. ________________________
      7. 9.199.000 Profit
      8. So total expenses - building every month = 63.427.500 Silver
      9. Profit through forge every month = 84.626.500 Silver
      10. => RoI = 33,4%
      Display All
      Idk some maths could be wrong .. would need information from actual plot owners and then i could make a Calculator if some are interested ..
      Basically what would be nice to know is the Food per Nutrition - Is the ItemVaue of Crafted items linked with the Nutrition they take? => Can make better asumptions for the food costs
      Whats the total amount of Crafts / Usage thingy you can use per day => whats the most possible tax you could collect per day (guess VOC kinda maxed that out alrdy ;D)

      Edit cuz i got wrong numbers through the Forum i guess .. Voc mad 169kk instead of 232kk in the month using the forge xDDD

      Ofc you get more money back when u loose the plot, demolish the forge etc pp ... xD

      If numbers are wrong just let me know and i recalculate it though... still proofes that cartelprices are stupidly high .. and VOCs assumptions are also meh ..

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Xetic ().

    • as a normal player, i dont care if you make profit or not, thats the nature of risk vs reward?

      if busines is going good you make what? 20-100m? if thats not enough for you then you shouldnt do the business...

      doing cartell stuff to enforce your taxes down our normal players throat and you expect us to symphatize with you?


      FK YOU and fk your cartells,

      i dont care if VOC is making profits cause of the crusade or not, he is the one breaking your fake taxes and in that sense he is my hero!
    • Vasort wrote:

      So we are not mafia or cartel! We are just doing business and trying to survive under the harsh conditions of Caerleon market business...
      You admit to price-fixing, and at the same time deny being a cartel? Friend, I don't think cartel means what you think it means.

      From an ignorant outsider's point of view, it appears to me you are trying to make city plots profitable even though the cost of ownership is currently prohibitively high. You are opposing free market forces. Maybe you will succeed and maybe not, but please, accept what you are and own your behavior. Be a proud cartel member and don't try so hard to justify your behavior. As Abraham Lincoln once said, "whatever you are, be a good one."
    • Bogul wrote:

      You guys both have valid points, but going through all of this for 2 things stand out for me:
      1. Vasort is farily open about wanting to make profit and gives out more information than we ever had before about the plot business ; yes thats a cartel by definition and price gouging isn't cool in RL, but in-game thats okay and a good strategy
      2. VOC disqualifies himself largely due to his choice of words (calling Vasort an idiot multiple times and dragging the discussion down to a personal and insulting level instead of staying with the numbers (that also have issues)) while beeing massively attention seeking (I'M THE HERO) in the process (VOC being VOC with Trump rhetoric)

      If you are going to constantly come to the Cartels aid on the forums and reddit. You should probably disclose that you have held a long time associates rate on various cartel crafting stations and so may be somewhat biased. As to an SBI representative taking public sides in something like this. I think it's in bad taste, but whatever. If you want to be in the spotlight all the time, you should realize that you are going to be held to a higher standard.

      What's next giving Vasort a public forum to give his and only his point of view on an AO community stream?
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Piddle ().

    • Piddle wrote:

      Bogul wrote:

      You guys both have valid points, but going through all of this for 2 things stand out for me:
      1. Vasort is farily open about wanting to make profit and gives out more information than we ever had before about the plot business ; yes thats a cartel by definition and price gouging isn't cool in RL, but in-game thats okay and a good strategy
      2. VOC disqualifies himself largely due to his choice of words (calling Vasort an idiot multiple times and dragging the discussion down to a personal and insulting level instead of staying with the numbers (that also have issues)) while beeing massively attention seeking (I'M THE HERO) in the process (VOC being VOC with Trump rhetoric)

      If you are going to constantly come to the Cartels aid on the forums and reddit. You should probably disclose that you have held a long time associates rate on various cartel crafting stations and so may be somewhat biased. As to an SBI representative taking public sides in something like this. I think it's in bad taste, but whatever. If you want to be in the spotlight all the time, you should realize that you are going to be held to a higher standard.
      What's next giving Vasort a public forum to give his and only his point of view on an AO community stream?

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    • Piddle wrote:

      Bogul wrote:

      You guys both have valid points, but going through all of this for 2 things stand out for me:
      1. Vasort is farily open about wanting to make profit and gives out more information than we ever had before about the plot business ; yes thats a cartel by definition and price gouging isn't cool in RL, but in-game thats okay and a good strategy
      2. VOC disqualifies himself largely due to his choice of words (calling Vasort an idiot multiple times and dragging the discussion down to a personal and insulting level instead of staying with the numbers (that also have issues)) while beeing massively attention seeking (I'M THE HERO) in the process (VOC being VOC with Trump rhetoric)

      If you are going to constantly come to the Cartels aid on the forums and reddit. You should probably disclose that you have held a long time associates rate on various cartel crafting stations and so may be somewhat biased. As to an SBI representative taking public sides in something like this. I think it's in bad taste, but whatever. If you want to be in the spotlight all the time, you should realize that you are going to be held to a higher standard.
      What's next giving Vasort a public forum to give his and only his point of view on an AO community stream?
      lol

      twitch.tv/videos/435214677
      Bogul#6397 - Merchants of the Mist - Founder & Head of "Management"
    • Bogul wrote:

      You guys both have valid points, but going through all of this for 2 things stand out for me:
      1. Vasort is farily open about wanting to make profit and gives out more information than we ever had before about the plot business ; yes thats a cartel by definition and price gouging isn't cool in RL, but in-game thats okay and a good strategy
      2. VOC disqualifies himself largely due to his choice of words (calling Vasort an idiot multiple times and dragging the discussion down to a personal and insulting level instead of staying with the numbers (that also have issues)) while beeing massively attention seeking (I'M THE HERO) in the process (VOC being VOC with Trump rhetoric)

      For a long time VOC has pushed for transparency and fairness from the cartel, only months later do we hear from the cartel, with no actual numbers or information, more a cry for help then stating anything relevant to the conversation.
    • Bogul wrote:

      You guys both have valid points, but going through all of this for 2 things stand out for me:
      1. Vasort is farily open about wanting to make profit and gives out more information than we ever had before about the plot business ; yes thats a cartel by definition and price gouging isn't cool in RL, but in-game thats okay and a good strategy
      2. VOC disqualifies himself largely due to his choice of words (calling Vasort an idiot multiple times and dragging the discussion down to a personal and insulting level instead of staying with the numbers (that also have issues)) while beeing massively attention seeking (I'M THE HERO) in the process (VOC being VOC with Trump rhetoric)

      Leave it to a mega-snowflake like bogul to "disqualify" something as if he has any power in this

      VOC was slandered in the first place. Vasort was just too much of a wuss to use his actual name. But whatever stand on the side of the monopoly because you obviously benefit from it too.


      The people of Albion want a FREE economy and people like you are just in the way with your pedantic bullshit. Monopolies are downright anti-capitalist and need to be dismantled. A cartel is a monopoly in some sense. Stop supporting it in any way.
    • NagyMedve wrote:

      I just dont understand why the devs are not giving some unique advantage for every shops forexample some can craft faster, higher return rate or anything. Maybe it will change randomly or owners can change it every month... You just have to slow down the crafting process. :)
      I think changes from SBI are long over due

      one idea is for spitting plots for each item group, the toolmaker could have afew different types each dedicated to one item group. gathering gear toolmaker, bag/cape toolmaker, furniture tool maker etc
      another is to change the % of total bids the owning guilds gets, or sync it with season points since thats more revelent to a guild then a % of total bids, if all the silver was sunk it would reduce the high price of plots since no rebates would be given to cartels members of the owning guild.
      Lots of ideas have been given over the years.

      I cant think of a significant update to plots since betas, at launch they added %total bids given to the guild owning the city, and recently the made it blind auction? what else?

      The post was edited 2 times, last by F20 ().

    • Bogul wrote:

      You guys both have valid points, but going through all of this for 2 things stand out for me:
      1. Vasort is farily open about wanting to make profit and gives out more information than we ever had before about the plot business ; yes thats a cartel by definition and price gouging isn't cool in RL, but in-game thats okay and a good strategy
      2. VOC disqualifies himself largely due to his choice of words (calling Vasort an idiot multiple times and dragging the discussion down to a personal and insulting level instead of staying with the numbers (that also have issues)) while beeing massively attention seeking (I'M THE HERO) in the process (VOC being VOC with Trump rhetoric)

      Bogul, I think you're a good guy and appreciate everything you do for the AO community like managing the Wiki, but I disagree with both your statements.

      #1 I think is more nuanced:
      a) Agree that cartels and price gouging are not cool in real life
      b) Somewhat agree that it's a valid strategy in a hardcore sandbox game like AO
      c) Where I think you're missing the point is that Vasort is trying to spin his cartel position as something where he has no option to do otherwise, and subsequently tries to make himself out to not be a villain. I am not an expert in plot economics, but I believe in theory that true competition would be better for the average AO player versus the current cartel/price fixing status quo. As others have mentioned, in order to get there SBI needs to eliminate some of the information advantages that incumbent plot owners have in order to lower the barriers to entry for new competitors. Things like making public usage rates, revenue rates, nutrition usage rates, etc.

      #2 I think is mostly irrelevant. While I agree that name calling and insults is poor form, it doesn't change the underlying fact that VOCs position has been largely transparent and supported by strong evidence.
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      The post was edited 1 time, last by Grimhawke-EB ().