The Truths Behind The Caerleon Marketplace Speculations

    • Who cares if they have a cartel..... I beat their control by making my own shops on island in every city. Only lose small % in return and they don't get my money. I win :P hehehe

      Great post btw Vasort. I love how people call you greedy because they can't get that extra 7% for free and on your tab.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by King_Arthur ().

    • King_Arthur wrote:

      Who cares if they have a cartel..... I beat their control by making my own shops on island in every city. Only lose small % in return and they don't get my money. I win hehehe
      and u loose at the same time. do you know how much u will loose with the return rate pluss the cost too set up 5x T8 building in every city?? But if
      u dont care about your income and how u waste your silver sure its an option if u just want too craft/refine T6
      T8 Ore T8 Stone T7 wood
      400/400 Trading :-/
    • TradeMark wrote:

      King_Arthur wrote:

      Who cares if they have a cartel..... I beat their control by making my own shops on island in every city. Only lose small % in return and they don't get my money. I win hehehe
      and u loose at the same time. do you know how much u will loose with the return rate pluss the cost too set up 5x T8 building in every city?? But ifu dont care about your income and how u waste your silver sure its an option if u just want too craft/refine T6
      I don't loss, I just don't make as much profit :P where they make 0% from me.
    • CLICK HERE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THIS YOURSELF I MADE A 1 HOUR VIDEO RESPONSE


      I could not be happier with this post.

      Vasort is admitting openly that he has re-instituted a Cartel among 117 / 118 plot owners of Caerleon and Jacked the prices up substantially.

      I respect this level of Transparency and openness to debate, and will respond at length to Vasort.

      I am open to a moderated discussion on this topic if the community so desires, I understand Vasort has already given an interview on this topic to Bogul/Shozen, I am willing to do the same. (Just not during the first 10 days of Legion POE comes first)

      Vasort tries to spin it as necessary to be economically viable at a 20% Net Net profit.

      The SOLID PROOF THIS IS BULLSHIT is my 7 month successful effort to previously break the Cartel and run a Hunter Lodge, Warrior Forge, and Mage Tower in Caerleon at a modest monthly loss.

      Vasort mentions Bananna Pudding in his Propaganda Piece above... I agree Bananna Pudding (BP) has more real experience running plots in Caerleon than anyone... and it was under his advice and tutelage that I first entered the property game. BP Showed me that with REASONABLE defense bide and REASONABLE food supply system all production plots (Mage, Hunter, Warrior, and Toolmaker) could at that time be run sustainable with forge fees of 7%.

      My modest losses over the 7 months came from MUCH HIGHER DEFENSE BIDS due to Cartel EconomicPVP.

      The biggest change between then and now is Gold Inflation (Silver Deflation) while system item values remain Fixed causing the breakeven tax rate for production facilities to increase.

      SBI GM "Monochrome" understood this inflation problem and was working years back to adjust how the Tax Rates at production facilities adjusted in relation to item value and gold inflation, but he has since left his employ with SBI.

      I was fully Transparent with my plot experiment last month on the 15% warrior forge making 7 videos, and 14 reddit posts with all of the pertinent data. I did profit as I discussed at length in my final post on the forge.

      My income on the forge for the month at 15% tax rate and 100% utilization was 232 Million, my profit was 121 Million. (I am not sure why Vasort exaggerated this number saying I profited 200 Million as the data was so transparently available). I am pretty sure the answer is a continuation of his Propaganda against my efforts to hold the Cartel in check.

      The problem with the 121 Million silver profit during the month of May 2019 is that gold inflated substantially over that period, 29%.

      That is to say, if I took my investment of of 110 Million silver and did NOTHING and just left it invested in gold for the month of may by June 1 It could have sold for 142 Million silver. So in NET NET terms I profited right around 100 Million silver on the forge, or 3.7 Million silver profit per day.

      As a comparison, I run a labour network of 330 T8 Labourers, here is a video showing me utilizing all 330 and discussing the economy, To service them takes me about 45 mins and I profit between 12 Million and 22 Million silver daily from this process depending on the market and BMAH conditions. This profit is available within 22 Hours (book processing) to be invested in to the Gold market or reinvested. There is VIRTUALLY NO RISK in this process.

      Managing ONE plot takes more time.

      This indisputable FACT, in combination with my seven months of selfless service to the city of Caerleon in breaking the Cartel last year should prove to any outside observer that my intentions in running plots in Caerleon are not the WILD PROFITS ! I am a Capitalist, and I am Selfish very often in this game, but my disdain for the Cartel and the Mafias and Mega Alliances in this game outweighs my baser instincts.

      CONTINUED BELOW...

      The post was edited 3 times, last by VOC ().

    • Vasort wrote:

      We are listening all of you and trying to update the system according to your feedbacks. Our concern here is having a chance to protect ourselves while auction biddings and profit 20% of total income if possible.
      This is the BIGGEST RED FLAG in Vasort's whole propaganda hit piece, and if you scrutinize only one statement in his litany of BULLSHIT it should be this one.

      20% of "TOTAL INCOME" is not in any way shape or form, or by any measure, in line with the Cartel's current actions.

      My TOTAL INCOME on the 15% Warrior Forge at full utilization (with the cartel consistently craft dumping) in May 2019 was 169 Million silver (which Vasort somehow claims I profited 200 Million on).

      I would be thrilled to profit REASONABLY at 20% of total income (34 Million) - After subtracting food costs, and reasonable defense bids, and Block Decay if it meant the community would have access to FAIRLY priced forges.

      Ultimately, I have depicted (with evidence) above, and depicted (with evidence) for 7 months last year that this IS POSSIBLE, and It IS SUSTAINABLE.

      I have watched the Cartel Stations income hourly (where it is not removed) sampling data for the past two days... their rate of profit is closer to 77% of total income (assuming they have to defend at the same rate of defense next month) ... but more importantly their rate of income is 300% of what mine was, even without full utilization.

      Because the Cartel has drastically increased taxes to more than 460% greater than my taxes on the same production structures, even if the Utilization is distributed among the various Cartel members the overall income each of their structures will receive will DWARF the total income I grossed in May.

      Again I grossed 169 Million and Profited (adjusting for inflation) at 59% net net.

      This put 3.7 Million silver a day in my pocket for my work or 100 Million for the 27 days.

      Each Cartel Member with a Warrior Forge, Mage Tower, Hunter Lodge is currently on track to have a TOTAL INCOME of around 550 Million Silver (though their utilization rates are less than 100% their Taxes are 460% higher) and their costs are an AVERAGE of 23.7 Million Silver per PLOT per Cartel Member defense bids lower than my 45 Million because they were defending (not aquiring).

      Their food costs will indisputably be lower than my 53 Million because they are NOT at full utilization.

      And their decay costs are the same as mine ( about 3 million silver for the month)

      This means on AVERAGE the Cartel members are currently projected to have a monthly COST BURDEN AVERAGE of less than 75 Million Silver with a projected monthly net revenue of as much as 550 Million Silver for the inner ring plots.

      This incremental difference of 475 Million Silver represents a profit of 86% on the net TOTAL INCOME of 550 Million.

      Of course, unlike me, Vasort and the Cartel members are NOT transparent, they are collecting the profit off their structures as they feed them precisely so this data cannot be gauged.

      I agree with Vasort that the system is currently NOT designed well.

      FAR TOO MUCH ECONOMIC DATA IS UNAVAILABLE AND FOGGY IN THIS AUCTION SYSTEM.

      The Devs should make logs of the nutrition given to the stations.
      The Devs should make logs of the income received over the month by the stations.

      In adding this data the community could clearly and without dispute gauge the economic value of the plot.

      The biggest LIE Vasort left out in his whole Propaganda piece is that he failed to disclose the KICKBACKS Blue Army is paying the various Cartel Members to continue to manage this symbiotic arrangement.

      We know from the link above that the owner of Caerleon (Currently Blue Army) will receive over 750 Million silver (25% of the net net bids) for the June cycle if they retain control.

      I like King Mojo, he is a good guy, but he learned well from his time on the periphery of the EXE Mafia that coordination with the Cartel Plot owners to raise taxes to justify higher bids is a self fulfilling and perpetuating arrangement.

      Vasort did not disclose how much of the 750 Million is returned to the Plot Owners who form the Cartel.

      The last time I had a reliable spy who was a member of the Cartel it was 8% of net net defense costs. In other words it was 8% of the 25% BA receives paid directly at the end of the month to the plot owner based on the previous months defense costs.

      This 33% return ensures that the Cartel continues to engage and encourage an ever increasing strong round of bidding.

      Both the Cartel and the Caerleon Owner stringently benifit from this system.

      The change SBI made to the Auction system last month (blind auctions) was a very strong first step in helping the community manage the plots in Royal Cities, but clearly we need further advancements.

      I call on the Roundtable to formally encourage the Devs to open up the transparency and data available to all players surrnounding the Economics of plot ownership, Specifically Food Logs (at least daily) and Income Levels (at least daily) showing the AVERAGE TAX PAID (to account for associate and custom management). There should also be a Tax Change log.

      If this information were displayed openenly to the community this entire debate would be instantly ended and everyone would see that Vasort is the one who is Misleading the community and I, VOC, am indeed the Hero !

      The post was edited 3 times, last by VOC ().

    • A system to set fixed prices and remove anyone that disagree? HOW THE HELL IS THAT NOT A CARTEL?! You just gave the best description of a cartel I've ever seen.


      Of course, the price battle is bad for all the shop owners, the plot price is too high, to begin with. Your 'system' is setting 'fair' fees based on the CURRENT plot and bidding prices. The game has just made a huge change to the bidding system and now needs time for the market to adjust the prices, you're just forcing your way against the natural flow of the free market.


      VOC and all the others that are not doing things your way are profiting because PEOPLE DON'T WANT YOUR SYSTEM IN PLACE. The players have chosen and decided with their hard-earned silver what they want, and it is not your cartel. They are profiting by exposing your system.


      If the new biding needs adjustment you voice it to the DEVs and show the community what is happening, instead, you tried to create a fixed price table.


      You really make it sound like you are some kind of necessary evil to save the shop owners. At least with this you got half right, you ARE evil, but not necessary. If you really aren't able to spot where you got wrong, not only you are toxic for this community, you are also a terrible person.



      The best decision you've made is staying away from the game.
    • So, you're a cartel, you price fix with others and we are supposed to ???

      Feel bad for you? See you as a victim? idk, do you want me to keep using your "district D" plots with 50% just so you guys can keep the price-fixed longer?

      I don't like VOC, but I don't get what you're trying to do here... super dumb thread. Stop crying
    • "At that time, I noticed that there is a tax system in Caerleon (which is definetely not found by me). And I realized that with that system there could be a chance to profit from the shops more than my past experiences"

      So what you are saying is the preface of your whole piece is a moot point. You claim to have "studied ways to make more money" then go on to say that when you returned to the game you found a cartel price fixing circuit that was more profitable than your research ever led you to be. Awesome. So you showed up with early money, bought into the cartel and profited. Grats on your capitalism, bro. So awesome being a shitter capitalist for maximizing your FAKE currency... lol.
    • Vasort wrote:

      WARNING: please read that part carefully!



      Last month, one of those local heroes set his Warrior Forge’s tax 15% while the minimum tax of our system was 30%. Today he is stating that he fought for you and served you with the minimum prices right? Ah, unfortunately that is not right!


      Because we didn’t break our system and he benefited from having low tax, he earned approx. 200M silver last month (because you all go that Warrior’s Forge right?). He took all Warrior’s Forge customers to his own shop. If we adapt to his strategy and set our taxes to that we all had no income from that shops and due to the auction bids most of the owners would loose millions of silver just because of him. In other words, if we set taxes as he did, all forges can only earn 25-30M silver per month which is impossible to defend at the end of the month.
      So u literally admitted that VOC is the hero here, cause normal people earn on this and not the richest guys in the game a.k.a shop owners
    • ferredoxin wrote:

      "At that time, I noticed that there is a tax system in Caerleon (which is definetely not found by me). And I realized that with that system there could be a chance to profit from the shops more than my past experiences"

      So what you are saying is the preface of your whole piece is a moot point. You claim to have "studied ways to make more money" then go on to say that when you returned to the game you found a cartel price fixing circuit that was more profitable than your research ever led you to be. Awesome. So you showed up with early money, bought into the cartel and profited. Grats on your capitalism, bro. So awesome being a shitter capitalist for maximizing your FAKE currency... lol.
      It's not about acting capitalist or socialist or whatever, it's about his lack of moralty. He could be a capitalist, but have a moral ground, as most have, to stablish that a freaking cartel is wrong. period.
    • Lot of words in the OP, but none of it changes the fact that Vasort openly admits to coordinating with other plot owners to fix prices and reduce competition. Which is the exact definition of what a cartel is:

      Merriam-Webster wrote:

      car·tel

      /kärˈtel/
      noun

      1. a combination of independent commercial or industrial enterprises designed to limit competition or fix prices

      AO Quick Reference Guide
      Discord: Grimhawke#9254


    • Rich people complain their money yoke isn't stable and they can't be rich anymore. good lawd.

      What this demonstrates is the lack of room for entrepreneurship in albion. you choose from 12 different businesses and compete with 100 other dudes peddling the exact same thing. You'll find your place in albion... right next to everyone else