The Truths Behind The Caerleon Marketplace Speculations

    • The Truths Behind The Caerleon Marketplace Speculations

      Greetings all,


      I consider ‘Caerleon Cartel’ topic necessary to make a statement about it.

      As I have shops at Caerleon and some of you declared me the boss of the Cartel, I wanted to talk about some important issues about this topic from my/our perspective.


      I will tackle with this text under these entries that I found important topics to clarify the topic:


      A. First of all, I will explain you what I am doing in the game, how I become that powerful and how I started to own shops.



      B. Secondly, I will discuss why we had to found a tax system even there are lots counter-views.



      C. Later on, I will express approx. how I invest into this and in exchange of it, how much I profit.



      D. Also, I will talk about the ones who are trying to represent themselves as ‘local heroes’ via criticizing the system we found. I will explain how these ‘noble* heroes’ are trying to benefit from this situation and also trying to profit much more than anyone else while they are crying on platforms such as forums.


      E. Lastly, I want to talk about how this bidding systems which is served by Albion Online put shop owners in a tight spot and how this system caused that high taxes. In addition, I will give example about why there cannot be a low tax system under this conditions with exact numbers from the last month.



      A. First of all, I will explain you what I am doing in the game, how I become that powerful and how I started to own shops.


      I have been playing this game since Alpha. From the moment I have started to play this game, I was thinking and researching consistently about how I can support my guild in terms of in-game economy to provide them maximum opportunities from the game content.


      During the Beta, the main cities of Albion Online were Kingsmarket and QueensMarket. According to my research and brainstorming about the game and the guild economy, I decided to enter market ownership business. From that that to-day, I am investing in that business time to time.


      After the official release of the game, with the support of my guild who are playing together during the Betas, we have bought 6 shops from the city. At that time, we had no real profit from those shops but I invested them just because of taking benefit from the 15% bonus. These shops also had diffuculty to meet the bidding defence costs where we found the solution to ask the guild for the help.


      After playing continuously for a while, we decided to have a break to the game. During that time, we sold all of our shops, convert our silvers to gold and took a break. The point of converting our silver into gold is just lean on we thought that in time gold value could be increase against the silver currency.


      B. Secondly, I will discuss why we had to found a tax system even there are lots counter-views.


      Approximately 6 months ago, I started to play Albion Online once again as it is a game which cause addiction you know.


      At that time, I noticed that there is a tax system in Caerleon (which is definetely not found by me). And I realized that with that system there could be a chance to profit from the shops more than my past experiences. With that motivation, I re-entered the Caerleon market business.


      While I was buying the shops from a player, he told me that there is a discord server where all the rules for the shops are taken and if I wouldn’t join that discord and/or set any taxes different than the system, they are all going to attack me. So I was warned by the ex-owner of the shops in terms of that topic. I accepted the conditions and joined the discord server.


      I am going to explain the system that they were using to you, to make you informed about what was it:


      The founders of that system divided Caerleon marketplace into 4 pieces that they named those districts as A, B, C and D.

      ⦁ District A constitutes from the shops which are the closest ones to the city center.

      ⦁ District B constitutes from the shops which are located just after the District A.

      ⦁ District C constitutes from the shops which are between District B and District D.

      ⦁ District D constitutes from the shops which are the farthest ones to the city center.


      The idea of zoning the marketplace due to these districts is: Making the closest zones (A & B) most expensive where individual craftings could be done with minimum of walking in the city. On the other hand making the remaining zones (C & D) cheaper so mass crafting processes can be done there. By this way, they tried to constitute a balance between different zones which can form a platform where all owners can profit somehow.


      As I stated before, I accepted those conditions and started to do my business as they stipulated me.


      I had wasted approx. 2 hours a day to take care my shops and at the end of the month when I had a chance to calculate my net profit (which is equal to: +total_income-food_expenses-bidding_defences) I am able to profit almost 30% of the total income. This workflow continued approx. 2 months as this.


      At those times, I was playing with the PoE alliance which declared war to Caerleon and conquered it. In a guild meeting after that conquest, PoE officers put an idea forward about we can profit too much from

      Caerleon via Daily Taxes. By this way, the first recent transformation have been started: they attacked to shop owners of Caerleon (let me mention that they attack especially BananaPuding who has lots of shops at Caerleon). Of course as the owner of the city, doing these kind of actions are the rights of them and they targeted the highest tax possible from the city.

      If there is anyone who does not know what I am talking about, let me explain what it is:


      As you know every major city has a guild as an owner. These guilds are taking the 25% of bidding defence costs as their monthly city tax. For example, if this month 5B silver was spended during auctions, 25% of that expenses go to the city owner as a tax day by day (which means every day the city owner guild take 41M silver in return of 5B bidding).


      Under this conditions, they started to bid the shops very heavily to all of owners and bidded even heavier to BananaPuding. After this bidding war, lots of shop owners including BananaPuding left their shops and the new shop owners (which are mostly from PoE) were broken that tax system. Unfortunately, the new order caused a fatal error and all of the shops were started to make a loss. You may know that 30% of the owners from that period withdraw from the market because of can not sustain their shops under those conditions. During that period, I had shops in Caerleon too, I watched to market and gained insights about it.
      Unfortunately, I was loosing money too that is why I sold my shops.


      If there are someone who are playing the game at that time can easily remember that the price of the Caerleon shops were reduced to 35M and later on I have seen that some shops couldn’t be sold even from

      25M. Because everybody knew that those shops had no profits and even they were loosing money.


      In that period, I took a break and started to play another game (Legends of Aria) and found myself managing shops there too. But after a short time, we understood that LoA hasn’t got a bright future (at least from our perspective), and we decided to re-start playing Albion Online.


      At that time, we were not crowded and I didn’t want to labor with managing guild issues that is why I asked Mojo for taking me into their guild. My main idea was playing the game in a relax mode without drama.

      Actually, I have experienced some of the best memories of my Albion Online with Blue Army.


      On the other hand, in short time, I realized that everybody is running away from Blue Army while I couldn’t find a chance to even dismount to fight. Because of everyone even if they are more crowded than Blue Army are running away, I get bored playing with them within that style of gaming.


      At that moment, I communicated our old French and Turkish members and re-found the guild Articulo Mortis.First days of our re-constitution, we had no home plots that is why I had to invest once again to the
      Caerleon marketplace. I had enough experience about how markets work and decided to play the game seriously with my guild once again, I started to form a system for myself to tracking and calculating the values of each shops of the market.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Vasort ().

    • C. Later on, I will express approx. how I invest into this and in exchange of it, how much I profit.


      Within this subtopic, I will give examples from my experiences but the example is valid for all shop owners too.


      I invested 1B silver and bought 10 shops from Caerleon.


      I constituted excel tables for all shops which calculates the daily income, food expenses, bidding defences and so on. By this way, I was able to have a control on every shop that I had. At the end of the month, I see that my total net income is about 45M. We were lucky at that time because unlike PoE, Blue Army didn’t overbid anybody in the city.


      For a while this continued as this..


      Then, we learnt that the game went Free to Play which meant to us that the potential profits of the shops could increase much more in short time. During that period, the people who knew about that business and have economic power started to own shops with different nicknames. At those times, there were also a few number of people who had most of the shops but nobody was talking about a cartel.


      On the other hand, in return of 1B silver invesment, earning 45M means very risky and not reasonable (let me underline that we were not taking any overbids that term and even we couldn’t earn enough in exchange of what we invested). To generate a solution to this situation, I started to talk shop owners which are enemy with each others and decreasing all the taxes just for their obstinacy. I told them working your shops from 5% tax is not harming your enemy only, but is harming you too. Also, it is harming all of us too. Because of this, we were all loosing money.


      After the negotiations, most of us agreed on the new terms where we can all profit in a reasonable way without giving harm to any other business around. After I regroup these owners and constituted the new system, I have recognized the vulnerability in the system. Normally, District C shops are considered as low value shops and we didn’t want to invest in them. But if we didn’t, somebody came in and break the tax system with those shops. That is why we decided to interest in those shops too even if we didn’t really want to.


      I will explain why this is not about being a cartel but a thing that the current game system forces us to do.



      D. Also, I will talk about the ones who are trying to represent themselves as ‘local heroes’ via criticizing the system we found. I will explain how these ‘noble* heroes’ are trying to benefit from this situation and also trying to profit much more than anyone else while they are crying on platforms such as forums.


      As I underlined above, District C shops were experienced as the lowest value shops of Caerleon. We don’t want to have those shops because even if the tax system works properly those shops were not earning competitively.


      Some of our friends who you are reading their comments in Reddit (in this topic) aka our ‘noble heroes’ were buying those shops and guess what they are doing? They were representing themselves as your local heroes and stating that they were gonna break the system and serve you from lower taxes. Synchronously, they were texting us and threating us about breaking our system to make us loss. For example, while we were working District D shops from 30% tax, they set their District C shops as 15%. When you read that you will think that ‘yes we are talking just about it, it proves that you are cartel’ right?


      WARNING: please read that part carefully!


      Last month, one of those local heroes set his Warrior Forge’s tax 15% while the minimum tax of our system was 30%. Today he is stating that he fought for you and served you with the minimum prices right? Ah, unfortunately that is not right!


      Because we didn’t break our system and he benefited from having low tax, he earned approx. 200M silver last month (because you all go that Warrior’s Forge right?). He took all Warrior’s Forge customers to his own shop. If we adapt to his strategy and set our taxes to that we all had no income from that shops and due to the auction bids most of the owners would loose millions of silver just because of him. In other words, if we set taxes as he did, all forges can only earn 25-30M silver per month which is impossible to defend at the end of the month.


      Let me give you an example from the opposite perspective


      The same hero has toolmaker shop right now. At the beginning of the new month, we checked our taxes which are minimum 50% for toolmaker and set his taxed as 40%. I want to underline that he didn’t set it to 15% but 40. Because he is not a hero not even close being hero, he is just using the feelings and thoughts of others and trying to manipulate them. By the way, I have no problem with this. It is his shop and he can act however he wants to. Also, we have the right to act as how we see the problem. So, I texted him and told him that, just because of we didn’t broke the tax system, you earned lots of money. But because of your attitude, other Warrior’s Forge shops couldn’t earn anything. You are abusing our system which is directly an attack to us. So, I told him not continue this attitude and do not harm other owners with this business style.


      Well, he understood what I tried to say but he manipulated my words as I am threating him. I don’t have to threat you my little hero if I want I can act whatever I want. I offered you to work in equal conditions.


      Anyway he didn’t understood us and we set all of our toolmakers’ taxes to 8% and tried to show him that tax wars is not the answer for business. If we decrease the taxes as he did, he will earn nothing.


      Today, he is crying at Reddit and saying that ‘please use my shops from 15% bohuhuhuu’. Because the only thing he cares to profit much more than he deserves with abusing the system. I am sorry my ‘little hero’ but if you want to serve people with low taxes you can do right now without a problem from 8% tax. But we all know that you are starving for silver and you know now that you would have none of it.


      Beyond these cheap heroic initiatives, I want to explain how we are going the adapt tax system and how we are going to transform it into a more sustainable form.


      We are listening all of you and trying to update the system according to your feedbacks. Our concern here is having a chance to protect ourselves while auction biddings and profit 20% of total income if possible.

      I think it is pretty reasonable in return of how much time we are wasting to handle those shops during the month and also how much silver we invested in from the first day of our business.


      Let me give you one example from our tax adaptation process:


      As you know we started the month with 69% taxes and yesterday we decreased it to 59%. We are trying to find a reasonable value and testing it to find a fair one (by the way because of some local heroes we couldn’t test the system flawlessly so it takes more time to clarify things).


      So we are not mafia or cartel! We are just doing business and trying to survive under the harsh conditions of Caerleon market business. We will continue to decrease the taxes to the most possible minimum step by step and will evaluate the process after the next auction bidding to decide the certain tax values. We will update the taxes after the first week too by the way.


      Warning: For avoiding inequity between the players, we are asking the same taxes from our friends too. You can check custom shop taxes if you want and can easily see that.


      We hope in short time we will find the exact values for taxes and will finish this unknown situation.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Vasort ().

    • E. Lastly, I want to talk about how this bidding systems which is served by Albion Online put shop owners in a tight spot and how this system caused that high taxes. In addition, I will give example about why there cannot be a low tax system under this conditions with exact numbers from the last month.


      From here, I have some words to the DEVs.


      I am reading forums for two months but couldn’t see any clue about how shop owners have disadvantage while managing their shops. By this post, I want to give you and the players an example. I am also considering to write a detailed information about this topic as a e-mail before I am taking another break to Albion Online (unfortunately I am thinking to give a 1-year break to the game).


      Here is the example of current situation:


      I defended my shops in cost of 1.25B silver and I knew that lots of other shop owners spend 1B+ silver to defend their shops as well. This was the heaviest bidding term of Caerleon history.


      Spending 1.25B silver means they attacked me 2.50B silver. They caused me to spend 1.25B and they lost nothing after that bidding. We are aware of how much they bid to us.


      Now I have two messages. One to the bidders and the next one to the DEVs.


      As you understand too I know which ‘super hero’ bids me how much during the last two months. If I let them win with defending my shop via a little less than how much they bid last months, I am able to earn 5-months income at once and they will loose 5-months income at the same moment.


      And with that economic advantage, bidding advantage comes to me while defending disadvantage goes to them. Let me clarify you, I have an excel table that I know how much each shop is earning with what taxes! So I know who is earning what..


      If I let you win the auction and will bid you every month, not to win the auction but to finish you, you have no chance to survive. You will loose everything you have and in addition you also let me have all 5-months of income.


      I am underlining the truths but you are trying to manipulate things to show them as threats. Once more I am saying that if we let you win the auctions, with that attitude, you will loose everything you have got. I am warning you about the danger, I will be very sorry if I see you here crying once again if you even have lots of shops.


      If my intention was negative, I will let them win the auctions and will destroy their economy and then re-gather those shops without any competitors. I know which shop earns what with which taxes and I have both economical and also in-game power. If my intention was negative, I can broke all the city marketplaces with that system because attacking has no drawbacks while defending the shops has lots of disadvantages. In addition, we are cartel as some asserted, we will have much more silver than I have individually to break this protest.


      I can break the new system without loosing even 1 silver with bidding them the true prices.


      So by giving that example I have shared my worries to the DEVs too. This system is totally broken and some are trying to charge it to us. While we are doing nothing wrong.


      All in all, I tried to explain the truths behind the lies. This is my last 2 months in the game and my purpose is to set a reasonable system to Caerleon and give a long break.


      By the way I am not a person using forums to pvp but this time I decided to explain myself to ones who does not know about the truth and being manipulated from cheap heroes.

      .


      Best Regards,


      Vasort

      A la plonge #pfp.
    • @Player112 he has been novel'd upon across reddit.com/r/albiononline -- the least he can do is defend himself with a few paragraphs.

      ignore abydon... a true tl dr;

      Voc and Vasort same people. Vasort got the lucky coin flip and took the right vacation.

      Voc invested his money into crafting armor specs early on. Vasort put his money into the market over a year ago.

      Vasort super nerd using spread sheet to track every single income of each plot / prices / who bids etc. ---- uses this information to communicate with other store owners to help them prosper.

      Vasort reveals flaw in SBI bidding system

      Voc making profit off his crusade. Vasort making profit during the crusade.

      Vasort big giant compared to Voc- could crush Voc. Chooses not to.

      Pls SBI help- Vasort
      twitch.tv/persiansohrab
      400/400 Fire Mage Spec
      400/400 Cloth Robe Crafter
    • As a new plot owner (not first time owned in beta and release) I agree on some points here and there.
      I also have the spreadsheet with all the plot bids for all the major cities.
      I also have idea how much each plot can generate in a month and food cost varies a lot.
      I mean 1 single terry farm can produce 1.3k raw resources this is giving you an edge as you control some of them.
      Now I do understand that there is minimum tax that under which you are losing money on plots.
      But I have to disagree that you should be eligible to make 40 mil profit after cost per month from every single plot.
      Time invested is feed the plots, yes it takes a lot of time when you own 10 shops in each town that is 60+ plots
      If every single plot net you 40 mil after defense food and repair this net you 2.4bil per month.
      And total money invested at 60 mil per plot on avarage is 3.6 bil...
      The problem with the cartel is that taxes are unreasonable high if the taxes are lower people won't organise and bid so high to get plots as the profits won't be that good.
      With Cartel and 60% taxes profits are just too high thus higher bids on auction.
      I also craft and refine and 60% tax is so high that I have to craft with focus and lose money.
      The most scummy thing was the cartel price for associates this is just bulshit.
      The 1.2bln figure for your caerleon defense include the attack on 7 new plots if I'm not mistaken at arnd 100mln ea. and the defense on 4 plots.
      Now from my prespective I want to get on this and invest 100-200 mil to own few plots that will net me 40% ROI per month if ROI was 5-10%. Would I even bother to take the risk ?
    • Your obvious issue is that you are treating the shops as something permanent. You want to defend them at all cost. This is not how you do business.
      If the shop generates 45M revenue a month like you said, obviously you don't bid more than 45M max. Less if you care about profit. If someone outbids you let that idiot take the loss and you can move elsewhere
    • Vasort wrote:

      The same hero has toolmaker shop right now. At the beginning of the new month, we checked our taxes which are minimum 50% for toolmaker and set his taxed as 40%. I want to underline that he didn’t set it to 15% but 40. Because he is not a hero not even close being hero, he is just using the feelings and thoughts of others and trying to manipulate them. By the way, I have no problem with this. It is his shop and he can act however he wants to. Also, we have the right to act as how we see the problem. So, I texted him and told him that, just because of we didn’t broke the tax system, you earned lots of money. But because of your attitude, other Warrior’s Forge shops couldn’t earn anything. You are abusing our system which is directly an attack to us. So, I told him not continue this attitude and do not harm other owners with this business style.


      Well, he understood what I tried to say but he manipulated my words as I am threating him. I don’t have to threat you my little hero if I want I can act whatever I want. I offered you to work in equal conditions.


      Anyway he didn’t understood us and we set all of our toolmakers’ taxes to 8% and tried to show him that tax wars is not the answer for business. If we decrease the taxes as he did, he will earn nothing.


      Today, he is crying at Reddit and saying that ‘please use my shops from 15% bohuhuhuu’. Because the only thing he cares to profit much more than he deserves with abusing the system. I am sorry my ‘little hero’ but if you want to serve people with low taxes you can do right now without a problem from 8% tax. But we all know that you are starving for silver and you know now that you would have none of it.


      Beyond these cheap heroic initiatives, I want to explain how we are going the adapt tax system and how we are going to transform it into a more sustainable form.

      I will only responded to this part, since it is about me. The same hero wasnt Voc, it was clearly 720, someone different.

      You are correct i set my taxes at 40% when everyone else was 69%, im sorry i didnt understand your district code.
      I wasnt trying to be a hero or break your role play, i simply wanted my own plot for my crafts, maybe make some profit or break even was the plan.

      After setting 40% tax i continued my day, after afew hours i checked current taxes and adoptagoat in district whatever had set his tool maker to 9% tax, i figured id continue to hold at 40% and see what happens next. Within the next 24hrs i had a Mail from Vasort stating i was breaking the code and to set my taxes at 69%, at this point i checked current taxes and every one else had dumped to 9%. I set my tax at 9% with them, and mailed Vasort saying '9% or 69% tax?', which he never replied :(
      The next day after speaking with Voc we decided it was better to not play their game and I set the tax back to 15%. At this point i had no intention of making a profit, just proving the public with 8% tax thru someone elses effort and having a place i could roleplay being a plot owner is enough for me.

      Also the 100m bid was a small % of my profits since F2p, seems fitting giving a little back.

      EDIT
      I would also like to thank Voc for his PR work, i dont think wed see such a post from vasort if it was just humble me. Its great to finally see abit more transparency, lets continue for progress not profits. next move will be on SBI.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by F20 ().

    • Giving VOC any sort of credibility is a mistake. I also don't believe he cost anyone anything close to a meaningful amount of silver last month. I could never use his Forge because it never had capacity, and I gave Geem's forge about 20% of VOC's gross by myself.

      The auction is about as good as it can be. Plot owners are still willingly putting themselves into exploitable positions buying plots, and nothing is going to change that. They also don't have meaningful ways to compete with each other outside of nutrition costs, tax rates, distance to center and the auction itself. You need the Dev's to give stations meaningful differentiation. All forges being the same as all other forges is part of the issue.

      If you don't like the game, don't play it, but the idea that you are going to raise the taxes as much as you have and there won't be consequences is just silly. You priced me into owning plots in Caerleon already, and I am not going to be interested in agreements or maintaining profitability on the stations, because I consider your losses to be nearly as good as my profits, and I'll always make the money up somewhere else.

      4.5% on 1B is worse than gold, so either you aren't being honest or you are making a mistake and just want someone to fix it for you,
      Discord: Piddle#7413 "The purpose of existence is simple: everything is fuel for the magmaw." —Jaji, magmaw worshipper
    • Nice eulogy but sorry you guys have no excuse for manipulating all the markets and ridiculously high taxes. This entire post is just damage control because you're losing profits due to VOC offering reasonable and competitive prices. If you didn't absolutely obliterate the food and stone block market, you wouldn't be in this situation. Also you took control of Fort Sterling and STILL hold Lymhurst hostage. It disgusts me that you even attempt to blame POE for your misfortunes. They win by conquerors rights they can set the price to whatever and you can't do anything about it. But the reality is everything is under the cartel's control now and you people control all the prices. I have no sympathy. You people are all liars and deserve this. Reduce your taxes and fix this crap.

      What I've learned from you slime balls is to trust nothing you say because you all just account share on the forums and in game. For all I know the cartel is only 3 people.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by zerfaxx ().

    • rds wrote:

      Piddle wrote:

      4.5% on 1B is worse than gold, so either you aren't being honest or you are making a mistake and just want someone to fix it for you,
      Poor cartel owners, only 4.5% profit, right? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

      If we take his word for it, the only winner is BA for holding the city and bidding up everyone last month to pay defense that vasort claims is only profitable if he and his fellow friends try to buy up the city, hold tax at 69% to make a slight profit and save enough to pay BA again next month.

      Maybe SBI should make some changes to the rewards as city owner since its been untouched for years?
      Link it with season points and sink that whole 50% and i dont think we'd see 100m bids at auction, let alot 50%+ tax rates.