Auto Attacks builds: bows and spears

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    • Auto Attacks builds: bows and spears

      Hello!
      let me introduce myself.. I'm Shocobar, Auto attacks ranged build player since 2 years
      I'm in love with auto attacks ranged oriented builds in every games.. (this is a kind of curse :P )
      I'm a zvz player and i play sometimes in gvg scrims
      So i tried whispering bow, simple bow, glaive, trinity spear, 1H spear, spirithunter
      And no one of those weapons are good at the moment
      I'll talk point by point about the problems of every weapons actually:


      • Globally, auto attacks bows (whispering and simple bow) are terribly bad because:
      -It's purgeable:
      One purge and you just need to wait 20s without any way to pressure ennemies.
      in comparison, the fire, the frost, etc.. have a way to pressure with an effective constant dps with their q spells
      even crossbows got a better q spell. the explosive bolt deals ≈30% more damage and 50% less colldown..

      -Counters are too powerful:Quarterstaffs can annhilate our entire dps during 8s for 15s cooldown with one "w" spell: forceful swing. As a reminder, bows have 20s cd..
      The new mage chest cleanse for each auto attacks our "e" buffs

      -Auto attacks Bows don't have synergies with other spells:
      -explosive arrows don't works with the bonus magic damage of the whispering bow, and don't have any synergy with the simple bow. and it's purgeable
      -frost shot is useless
      -speedshot could be nice. It give an attack speed steroid but it's cleansable, don't have proportional range with the auto attacks of the whispering bow and the bow don't need that much attack speed
      -Ray of light is the default spell. but it's hard to touch someone with it (and the movespeed buff really don't help..)

      -Auto attacks bows don't have good armor to play with:
      nah. hunter chest is not that good on the whispering bow.. because it's purgeable (again...), and got only 25% attack damage bonus. so it's a strong synergy with the "e" of the whiserping but not with the ray of light, the poison potion, the deadly shot..
      So you're forced to play a cloth chest just for the passive attack damage bonus.. but not for the active spells
      you don't have enough cc duration bonus to play the demon helmet.
      So you're playing mage helmet by default but it's a bit weak.. or the fiend helmet to purge someone but you've got too much range with the whispering to use it

      -Buffs animations are too slows:
      if you don't fear purges, when you need to active your "e", your explosives arrows, your hunter chest, your demon or mage helmet, it's just too slow to cast all of your spells..

      -No resilience penetration:In zvz, it's impossible to play a mono build. you lack impact in this format. and if you're not agree with me, you need to know that it is impossible to kill someone if your allies are hitting your target because bows don't have resilience penetration..

      -Simple bow can't kite:
      it's maybe the desire of the developper but, it's just too much attack speed. it's totally uncontrollable. Auto attacks animation doesn't allow you to kite back someone properly.
      • Auto attacks oriented spears are decent but not good because

      -It's purgeable:
      Like the "e" spells on the bows, your stacks of q spell are purgeable, your hunter chest too..

      -Counters are too powerful:
      like the bows, forceful swing on the quarterstaffs just disable Auto attacks and when 100% of your damage are based on your auto attacks... to my mind it should just remove attack speed..
      The new mage chest remove every "q" spell stacks

      -The resilience penetration is too weak:every spears got 15% of resilience penetration (glaive got 50%, idk why). In comparaison, every cac weapons got 30/40/50 or 75% of resilience penetration.
      Spears don't have good aoe spells for zvz and don't have any way too deal with the zerg buff.. :(

      -Every "w" and "e" spells are terribly bad in zvz:
      Forest of spear: the aoe is too small and you take too much risks when you cast it
      Inner focus: quite good for ganking but not in zvz
      Cripple: counter a single sword every 20s
      Deflecting spin: it's useless in a zvz format
      Spear 1h: every others cac's dashes are better
      Pike: lol? it exist? :D
      Glaive: it could be a good mono build but it's useless vs knights helmets and everyone got it in zerg..
      Heron spear: aoe is too small
      Spirithunter: root is not effective on the cloth's ennemies because of the fort sterling cape. and it don't deal enough damage to catch someone and kill him solo. and the base attack speed is too slow
      Trinity spear: Would be nice if the aoe could be a bit bigger than 3m radius.. and the jump is so slow.... and the buff is only for 5 allies..


      • Ideas of upgrade/rework auto attacks things..
      -Reduce the standtime on bows auto attacks.
      -Give the bows a way to resist to the purges
      -buff the range of speedshot and poisoned arrow to scale with the auto attacks range
      -give a bit more range on the simple bow
      -give to the hunter chest a bonus for the ranged weapons
      -give to the scholar chest a bonus attack speed?
      -reduce the standtime on the "e" activation on the auto attacks bows, hunter chest and/or mage helmet and/or silence helmet
      -Rework idea for the simple bow: a twitch's like ult (twitch in league of legends). give more damage, more attacks speed (or not?) and your auto attacks pierce ennemies.
      -rework the resilience penetration to give to those who needs it. (mono oriented builds like auto attacks bows, auto attacks spears, and things like cursed staff 1h etc etc) and reduce it on other builds (like galatines)
      -give to the spears a new "w" spell who fit well for ZvZ.
      -rework the pike into a ZvZ spear oriented. an exemple: you can stacks 5 spears in your "e" spell with a 5s cd per spear. you can throw them, it pierce, slow and deal damages scaling on your q spell stacks..
      -rework the spirithunter to get more damage with the stacks (and no longer a bonus root duration) to be more effective in solo
      -give to the glaive a purge like the spirithunter have? or something that can remove movement speed buffs? or a slow?
      -give to the trinity a way to engage faster and with a bigger aoe. even if it means nerf something else. for exemple: make your jump proportional to your movement speed. it could be a great synergy with the inner focus.
      -I don't forget the 1H dagger. its a weak and a weird weapon, but it should be up for sure. the hp reduction makes it unplayable

      Conclusion:
      Auto attacks bows really needs an upgrade. It's weak in solo ganking, it's weak in ZvZ and it's weak in GvG.
      For the spears, it's more delicate. it's already viable in GvG and it can be dangerous to upgrade them without having thought how.

      Sorry for my english, i'm not bilingual! :P
      Thanks for reading my long message! ;)
    • Shocobar wrote:

      if you don't fear purges, when you need to active your "e", your explosives arrows, your hunter chest, your demon or mage helmet, it's just too slow to cast all of your spells.
      All of the problems bow has apply to forge hammers too (except it does have resilience pen as melee) and this one in particular rings true.

      The time it takes to pop hunters jacket, giant steps, your boots, slowing dash, then your helm all in succession is like almost a full two seconds with animations. It kills any fluidity to the kit and you basically pray you don't eat a purge on your way in.
    • Eternalhaze wrote:

      Shocobar wrote:

      if you don't fear purges, when you need to active your "e", your explosives arrows, your hunter chest, your demon or mage helmet, it's just too slow to cast all of your spells.
      All of the problems bow has apply to forge hammers too (except it does have resilience pen as melee) and this one in particular rings true.
      The time it takes to pop hunters jacket, giant steps, your boots, slowing dash, then your helm all in succession is like almost a full two seconds with animations. It kills any fluidity to the kit and you basically pray you don't eat a purge on your way in.
      It's true, i forgot the forge hammers..
      And the base attacks speed is so slow... it takes literally one year to hit someone..
      And you don't have any passive who fit very well.. same for others spells...
      these weapons need help!
    • If I were retroman, I'd removed all standtimes from game, and to balance this for melees (they may suffering from too much added mobility to rangeds) increased "attack range" for melees for nearly 1.5-3 meter radius so they can immediate autoattack and skill attack anyone in that range.
      That could add very smooth gaming experience for everyone.
    • Shocobar wrote:

      Boedavildje wrote:

      Single target auto attack builds arent really meant for zvz. For gvgs both spears and bows have viable options.
      maybe it's time to change it for the zvz..? it's boring to see only casters in zvzTo my mind, the game need more diversity.
      And spears are fine in gvg, it's true. But horrible in ZvZ
      Bows are not viable at all in GvG.. it's trash tier, sadly :(
      Bows arent thrash, im playing them just fine in GvGs.

      And how you do see a SINGLE target weapon ever being good in a type of fight that is about large scale player fights?
    • Boedavildje wrote:

      Shocobar wrote:

      Boedavildje wrote:

      Single target auto attack builds arent really meant for zvz. For gvgs both spears and bows have viable options.
      maybe it's time to change it for the zvz..? it's boring to see only casters in zvzTo my mind, the game need more diversity.And spears are fine in gvg, it's true. But horrible in ZvZ
      Bows are not viable at all in GvG.. it's trash tier, sadly :(
      Bows arent thrash, im playing them just fine in GvGs.
      And how you do see a SINGLE target weapon ever being good in a type of fight that is about large scale player fights?

      Boedavildje wrote:

      Bows arent thrash, im playing them just fine in GvGs.
      I don't know how you can say that, have you played recently?

      If you find an optimized Gvg team with a bow, feel free to send me the video or the scoreboard.
      Even if you play it and think that it is "a good weapon", it just behind every others weapons..

      I hope you can prove me that i'm wrong with a good proof...
    • ErEtiK wrote:

      I don't know how you can say that, have you played recently?
      If you find an optimized Gvg team with a bow, feel free to send me the video or the scoreboard.
      Even if you play it and think that it is "a good weapon", it just behind every others weapons..

      I hope you can prove me that i'm wrong with a good proof...
      Here is me doing a city plot attack using a bow,

      If you don't recognize my name or some of the names in the GvG, this isn't some random shit fight.
    • Boedavildje wrote:

      ErEtiK wrote:

      I don't know how you can say that, have you played recently?
      If you find an optimized Gvg team with a bow, feel free to send me the video or the scoreboard.
      Even if you play it and think that it is "a good weapon", it just behind every others weapons..

      I hope you can prove me that i'm wrong with a good proof...
      Here is me doing a city plot attack using a bow,
      If you don't recognize my name or some of the names in the GvG, this isn't some random shit fight.
      nice! :)
      what is your bow spec?