Dev Update: Hidden Entrances and Randomized Dungeons

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    • a few things you guys could add to make these dungeons better.

      1. Give loot in the form of chests.Im not talking about just 1 chest, give multiple chests. This will give players an incentive to explore different paths instead of just rushing the dungeon. Make the chest work with the black market, that way all loot that player find in chests will be loot that was obtained or crafted by other players.

      2. Mini map - the map should either be absent or make it that areas become visible in minimap only after player access them.
      ( mini map fog)
      If you give players a fully visible map from the start, most of them will try to rush them.

      3. Make sure that in order for the boss to spawn, players have to defeat a % amount of mobs. My experience with dungeons in games is that players tend to skip the mobs and go for the boss. Why put mobs in them if most players will skip them?

      4. Add dungeons for everyone...you guys said solo content will come after group content is finished. But also add zerg dungeons. These would contain mobs that are very hard to impossible for small groups, and huge hard bosses. Think of them as raids. Make these only available in black zones, that way you avoid zergs coming to royals to find these. Make them hard enough that a 10 player team has to struggle.
      This also creates some pve content for zergs, keeping them occupied. That will mean less zergs hunting small groups of players, wish is one of the biggest problems the black zone has. It is impossible to remove zergs, so instead just make sure they stay in blackzones.
    • Solo mobs is great idea, poor execution.

      IDK why SBI doesn't want it to be powerful content. It's the most open world way of playing the game one can have. You can go solo, in small groups, you can gank solo farmers on battle mounts (husky) or direwolfs. If the fame/rewards were bigger it would fill the open world with players. Not only those who have safehouse and deny the content, but all of the players.

      Now when you speeded up the game it's even more dangerous, because when you are in battle and someone rides a direwollf, which is now faster, you have much less time to finish the mob/mount up/ escape.

      Yet the fame has never been boosted vs HCE vs Dungeons. And now we will have people roaming through the world looking for randomized dungeons.

      Give 30% fame boost to solo mobs and you will see how things are going...
    • glokz wrote:

      Solo mobs is great idea, poor execution.

      IDK why SBI doesn't want it to be powerful content. It's the most open world way of playing the game one can have. You can go solo, in small groups, you can gank solo farmers on battle mounts (husky) or direwolfs. If the fame/rewards were bigger it would fill the open world with players. Not only those who have safehouse and deny the content, but all of the players.

      Now when you speeded up the game it's even more dangerous, because when you are in battle and someone rides a direwollf, which is now faster, you have much less time to finish the mob/mount up/ escape.

      Yet the fame has never been boosted vs HCE vs Dungeons. And now we will have people roaming through the world looking for randomized dungeons.

      Give 30% fame boost to solo mobs and you will see how things are going...
      I can understand where you are coming from but keep in mind that any readily available solo content would simply become "group" content if the rewards are high enough.

      Then you would have to increase rewards for group content to make it viable again and the cycle starts anew.

      For some time we have been collecting ideas to approach the solo content issue and we would be happy to add any ideas to the pool.
      Just answer yourself the question if your idea would be less effective with more players added to your group and you would thus want to be solo.
    • Re Thorn-Delwyn:

      i did read your comment, where you said, if you buff solo content, then it will become group content. Yes, that is a big issue and in my eyes, there is just 2 generic principles to protect solo content:

      1) Instancing, like Hellgate, a portal that closes after player has entered

      Like your randomized dungeons that for solo content would be accessible through 6 or 8HG like portals that close and player can fight inside but mobs repoping and gates respawn after less than 8 inside...

      2) Mobs Enraging if MORE than 1 or 2 people on agro table. Similar what you did as you denied Solo players the HG.

      You could create dungeons where Gargoyles or whatever mobs enrage if 2 or more players are on the agro table..

      These 2 basic principles are in my eyes the only way to prevent what you just argued: Make Solo Content good and it will become group content...
    • Thorn-Delwyn wrote:

      I can understand where you are coming from but keep in mind that any readily available solo content would simply become "group" content if the rewards are high enough.
      Then you would have to increase rewards for group content to make it viable again and the cycle starts anew.

      For some time we have been collecting ideas to approach the solo content issue and we would be happy to add any ideas to the pool.
      Just answer yourself the question if your idea would be less effective with more players added to your group and you would thus want to be solo.
      Your understanding is wrong, because when you have many players clearing out solo mobs, the fame/hour goes drastically down. The only reason why it is currently satisfying is just because nobody does it.

      Another thing,

      More people/groups does it > more risky it is > more rewarding it should be. And that's how you create content for players. Have something rewarding that scales with the risk. If groups decide to farm on the open world where they can be ganked, that's their choice. Everything that happens in the open world makes your game better. I don't agree about the need of boosting everything else as well. Your design is flawed and you just don't see it. I talked about that back in July 2018, I have not been convinced otherwise since then.

      AFAIK you have introduced HCE's to counter the fact that top guilds which have territories, had great advantage by keeping dungeons privately, which was kinda snowball effect. This is long time gone. I can't find a dungeon which is defended by whole guild or one of mega alliances. It just doesn't work like that anymore.

      Just analyze who clears solo mobs at the moment. Answer is simple - people who have territory on "Castle" maps. It's mostly a dead content beyond that because risk is much much higher than rewards. People who play dungeons would never be interested in solo/open world content. They will always chose CV/Mercia dungeons to play in group. The only competitor of solo mobs is HCE, because you can be solo and look on /lfg to find that group and it's 100% safe. And I don't see any reason for solo mobs not to be best fame in the game for smaller groups but when bigger groups or more groups do it, the risk and fame effectiveness drops. If there are more direwolf gankers, you will see even more groups hunting for gankers. That's how you bring players back to the game by literally doing changes to two lines of code.

      So again, if you tell me, you can't boost solo mobs because, by the design people should prefer HCE's over open world fame fame, then i'm done here. I really spent some time playing my 3rd alt playing in no-alliance guild, so having whole world as enemies, and clearing those solo mobs and I know what I am talking about.
    • Olyvia wrote:

      That patch will destroy all HCE´s.
      The most maps on lvl. 12+ will get undoable (even if you get 5 minutes more time to finish them). That you have to clear 80% of the mobs will probably make it undoable because some of the pulls on higher levels arent possible to do without dying or spending so much time to split the pull somehow up.
      If you want to push open-world-fame just increase the fame there or lower the overall needed fame to level his shit up (or just nerf the fame by 5% in HCE or whatever).
      But that changes, to kill 80% and the bosses, is stupid af.
      For example 3 sisters, its a pretty easy map, doable on all levels (but give shitty fame) and has some hard pulls. there it would be no problem to get the 80% of the mobs, but to do the middle boss on 13 or higher is impossible (because no one knows his mechanics and he makes you 1 hit).
      Stonewars too, at high levels its so hard to finish the map in time (13+), for 15 you allready need a insane DPS to do it in time. But if you have to clear 80% its impossible, even with 25min to finish it. Ah, the miniboss is at 14 not anymore doable and at 13 hard af.
      And if you really wanna remove timers hce is the only place to ff if you want big fame. Having unlimited time to finish a 13 fishy allows it too 7.2 players to finish that map or ff it.
      HCE`s should be more for the elite of the people, so to they who invest money and time to learn it (armor, knowing the pulls, the tricks on some pulls or mobs (like interrupts at fistful, or the ninja at the lumber chest on 13+)) and not for all, so a change is really neccessary but not in that way you guys want/do it. To make OW more attractive is a good way, but it is a bad way to kill HCE for that.
      Options would be to increase the OW fame by 10% or the HCE fame by -8.5%, decreasing the general needed fame (its a lot lol) or doing a lot of other stuff...
      And if you guys really think about doing that kind of stuff, let some HCE players test it and take then the critique (or not) because they are the ones that are involved, not the mods or "normal" players (and they have a idea what they are talking about and some experience in HCE´s).^^
      Maybe devs make video where beat lvl 15 stonewars after new patch..its idiotism if in game is content what players cant beat..so we will see..but this is one reason why many people leave albion,because love some content but devs only nerfing this content..ya,if you need boost ow,this nerf hce its wrong way..this way make just more people say bye bye AO..
    • Thorn-Delwyn wrote:

      can understand where you are coming from but keep in mind that any readily available solo content would simply become "group" content if the rewards are high enough.
      So be it, as one of the very rare solo that fame up on "roaming" mobs, I agree with glokz - the risk is too high, I do it by philosophy because it's not efficient, too risky if you compare to HCE, and let's not forget how dry the open world loot table is, as a result, it's empty.

      There could be common veteran mobs "roaming" in every bz zones, more challenging bosses with actual loot tables, it'd make lower tier zones more appealing and that's bonus value for territory there.

      Then if it leads to some small group interaction, it's amazing.

      There are so many zones, dungeons (and more incoming) that I find it hard to believe all of them would be camped by large groups to deny solos.
    • deadlyduz wrote:

      Log out option 100% understandable.
      Bubble mechanics 100% understandable.

      However changes being put in place since zergs diving dungeons 4x the number of a fame group are salty they cannot loot them.

      Why not look at real problems and address them accordingly?? Like why the fuck isn't hellgates the best fame in game? (not the 2v2 meme gates but 5v5 gates?) Why isn't outside/inside CV best fame in game? Why is it Anglia dungeon relic fame farm is one of highest fame. T6 mercia morgana dungeon is high fame. Stone top t7 dungeon skelly fame is shit.
      Bump for this.
      Discord: Redsaw#6002
    • Hollywoodi wrote:

      These 2 basic principles are in my eyes the only way to prevent what you just argued: Make Solo Content good and it will become group content...
      This is not true.

      The reason why dungeons have never become solo content is because single mob kills single player. You need a tank, healer and dps to deal with T7 dungeon.

      However I don't see any reason why groups killing solo mobs would take the content from solo players. If the fame was drastically boosted, maybe T8 maps would be taken by 2-3 players groups and they could achieve amazing results, but the same time they would provide content for pvp-players.

      Solo players could risk their life on T8 maps having a chance they will be killed by 2-3 man groups, so maybe it's more efficient to farm on T7 map. But still - a solo player could farm in T8 map, while it would be super effective - it would be super risky as well.

      So again, your assumptions are very wrong, please prove me wrong.
    • glokz wrote:

      Hollywoodi wrote:

      These 2 basic principles are in my eyes the only way to prevent what you just argued: Make Solo Content good and it will become group content...
      This is not true.
      The reason why dungeons have never become solo content is because single mob kills single player. You need a tank, healer and dps to deal with T7 dungeon.

      However I don't see any reason why groups killing solo mobs would take the content from solo players. If the fame was drastically boosted, maybe T8 maps would be taken by 2-3 players groups and they could achieve amazing results, but the same time they would provide content for pvp-players.

      Solo players could risk their life on T8 maps having a chance they will be killed by 2-3 man groups, so maybe it's more efficient to farm on T7 map. But still - a solo player could farm in T8 map, while it would be super effective - it would be super risky as well.

      So again, your assumptions are very wrong, please prove me wrong.
      Happy to do so:

      T7 dungeons can be easily soloed, i have no issue doing it. The only reason why it makes no sense, you need dress T6.1 or 7, and you will find a group with less than an hour on average. and then 2 things happen, either you have to retreat, because it is NOT 2-3 people, but even in Trinity Hall Dungeons, i often meet if i solo these Groups of 5+. So risk vs reward to solo fame does not pay off, and you don't get reasonable fights. I have no issue to 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 in a dungeon with reasonable mobs, but anything worse like 1 on 4 + is a sure death to me and makes no sense.

      So you need some things for solo content:

      1) Reasonable risk vs reward for solo play, that does not exist at the moment, nowhere in the game
      -groups are always more safe
      -kill fame related to kill speed does not benefit the solo play
      -it does simply not pay off
      - Solo is most risk, while low reward
      -best i can get solo is like 300 k fame
      -best you can get in group BZ is like 600-800 k
      -best you can get in HCE is like 1 Mio Fame // all per hour
      So risk vs reward is wrong in general, and especially for solo play

      2) An additional issue is NOT the other fame farm group, but the dungeon dive group
      - a scout pays of for groups at dungeon entrance
      -a scout makes no sense for solo at entrance
      - a solo has zero chance vs dungeon div group
      - a group has a chance, look e.g. russian empire at AC, they can block a corrdior if not totally outnumbered even vs a big group

      3) the best solo content at the moment is: 2 man HG
      - the best experience for solo players is at the moment to fight vs 2 in HG
      - no ganks, just 2
      - low fame
      - medium rewards
      again, extreme high risk, that does not pay off

      4) factions..
      Dev: experienced players should be able to solo faction guards..
      Seriously?
      take like 30 mins, high chance to knock me down, and then i get not scaling fame like 30 k
      risk vs reward again super crap for solo..

      Solo has always one issue: MAX risk, minimum fame reward..

      compared to anything else..
    • Thorn-Delwyn wrote:

      glokz wrote:

      Solo mobs is great idea, poor execution.

      IDK why SBI doesn't want it to be powerful content. It's the most open world way of playing the game one can have. You can go solo, in small groups, you can gank solo farmers on battle mounts (husky) or direwolfs. If the fame/rewards were bigger it would fill the open world with players. Not only those who have safehouse and deny the content, but all of the players.

      Now when you speeded up the game it's even more dangerous, because when you are in battle and someone rides a direwollf, which is now faster, you have much less time to finish the mob/mount up/ escape.

      Yet the fame has never been boosted vs HCE vs Dungeons. And now we will have people roaming through the world looking for randomized dungeons.

      Give 30% fame boost to solo mobs and you will see how things are going...
      I can understand where you are coming from but keep in mind that any readily available solo content would simply become "group" content if the rewards are high enough.
      Then you would have to increase rewards for group content to make it viable again and the cycle starts anew.

      For some time we have been collecting ideas to approach the solo content issue and we would be happy to add any ideas to the pool.
      Just answer yourself the question if your idea would be less effective with more players added to your group and you would thus want to be solo.
      not if you implement mechanics that force groups into the content that is suited for them.

      Punish groups that do solo content, or simply make single target mobs and areas, where a player can't be attacked by more then one person and there is a cooldown after combat, and/or make mobs that can only be attacked by one person at a time and the majority damage gets the fame, so people can't leech in a party.

      There are other games that do this and it has actually proven itself to be effective.
      Discord: Redsaw#6002
    • I have to agree with @Thorn-Delwyn here, just increasing the reward for solo mobs is a band-aid to a bigger issue. I think that the social interaction between strangers is very limited in the current state of Albion.

      Let's focus on solo players who have reached a point in the game where they are interested in exploring the black zone for the rewards.

      When a player chooses to go on their own they either do so by choice for the challenge or because they have no one to go with (They haven't made any friends or their friends are offline). When they go out into the blackzone the player interaction is entirely one-dimensional: Fight or Flight. Everyone they meet will either run from them or try to kill them and there is very little opportunity to chat or interact with others. This means you can't check if someone is a newer player and invite them to play with you or find someone who is gathering and work together for some objective. Even if you choose to find someone to party up with your rewards from most group content go down the more people you have. I think this really hurts the fun of going out solo and having a meaningful session because you know every session will end in a kill or be killed situation instead of sometimes having an enjoyable co-operative session to achieve some goal or hunt others (which can lead to making more friends to play with!) The way players interact with each other in a game isn't only human nature, it is part of the design.

      I have a lot more to say about this but I don't want to write an entire text wall and this isn't the thread for it, the design of full loot PvP games is something I have been very interested in.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Shaedeezy ().

    • I agree with you Hollywoodi, and if your calculations are correct, 30% boost on solo fame shouldn't be an issue at all! Just a little change to see how things play out.
      What I can't understand, why devs are so against making such changes and see how it plays out. If the change is as trival as this, what stops them from reverting it if something goes in a wrong direction?

      It's not much of a deal, every old player has already 50m+ fame and at least one build maxed out. However it would be nice for new players / casual players to get things easier. And I believe it would have a huge positive effect on small scale pvp.


      Redsaw wrote:

      not if you implement mechanics that force groups into the content that is suited for them.
      Punish groups that do solo content, or simply make single target mobs and areas, where a player can't be attacked by more then one person and there is a cooldown after combat, and/or make mobs that can only be attacked by one person at a time and the majority damage gets the fame, so people can't leech in a party.

      There are other games that do this and it has actually proven itself to be effective.

      I think that solo content does not need to be scaled to deny larger groups if you have such a big world. If groups are interested in doing something in a place like open world, there will be other groups interested in killing those groups.

      Whenever BA gets the information that there's a zerg somewhere like Camlann and they have shotcaller online, they mass up just to kill the group. So our guild massing up for world bosses which are pretty bad content for 10 players, but are the only possibility to fight in a choke-a-like clusters where you can't be so easily flooded with numbers like in open world, we mass with 30 people. And we have some nice fights 30v30 but also we got wiped by 80.

      If SBI had done anything to solve that before I could say OK. But tellin me now that solo content can't be boosted because larger groups will take it away is bullshit, because obviously they haven't done anything so far with all the other content that is currently available. So either we are consistent or not.

      BTW, we all complain about lack of endgame objectives and the biggest reward available is suited for 10 players group. Why do we keep 2.5k man alliances then? Can somebody from SBI answer that simple question ? Why not implementing an objective for larger groups to mass up and give players reason to launch albion or just simply downscale the community to make current objectives suited for it's scale.
    • implementing an objective to zerg for

      build mines, get resources, zerg and repeat

      so bascially what you want is easy prey for gank squads, pretty much why people prefer to stay in quiet places like not mercia dungeons ;)

      im suprised theres still people left wanting solo content, when you knew for 2 years + that solo is just byproduct of this game

      Plenty of content in the game, I guess its not enough when you play albion entire day

      The post was edited 1 time, last by tabooshka ().

    • What if they gave roaming mobs bonus fame, in certain areas, if they were killed by a solo or a two man party. This way these mobs wouldn't become groupe content because if more people hit the mob it will give the same amount of fame as it does now (for the respective amount of players). You could up this to 3 players maybe but not more.
    • tabooshka wrote:

      implementing an objective to zerg for

      build mines, get resources, zerg and repeat

      so bascially what you want is easy prey for gank squads, pretty much why people prefer to stay in quiet places like not mercia dungeons ;)

      im suprised theres still people left wanting solo content, when you knew for 2 years + that solo is just byproduct of this game

      Plenty of content in the game, I guess its not enough when you play albion entire day

      I'm not against zerg content, it's not my favorite kind of gameplay but I'm happy it's a thing in albion, what prevents you to feel the same about solo gameplay?

      Now, you're right, I want more preys/gankers, more players in the open worlds is great news to me, what's wrong about it?
      However the fact that you're surprised about solo existence insinuating they should leave the game is not great news, what's good about it?

      I agree with you that solo combat related content is poor and when you say it has been like this for two years+ it confirms my opinion; I'd like this to be changed.

      The solo content I'd love would be progressive in difficulty:
      - keep the roaming mobs, upgrade x% of them in veteran grade - add some true minibosses (think about actual T8 minibosses difficulty minimum) with some true loot tables.
      - Add some area with groups of veteran mobs guarding chests (such area already exist in some zones but are not really exploited - current small mob camps assets could be also used)
      - Add random soloable dungeons to oberon, make it challenging, let's not hear it's going to come later and forget about it, not again - that promise, I heard it long time ago.

      It adds a lot of fame/loot value to low tier zones, it's a great first bz option for new players, they'd give veterans mobs a try and would feel the progression, they may group up with random strangers to clear the harder areas/bosses/random soloable dungeons, now they may become friends or ennemies, history starts here.

      It's a natural approach, no rigid rules, no safe instanced stuff that that jails you into a bubble of zero interaction with the world.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Drazhen ().