Broken Market - End product cheaper than materials

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    • Broken Market - End product cheaper than materials

      As long as the end product is cheaper that the materials it costs to make, the economy is not functioning correctly. I enjoy this game but have quit because I don't like the way that the market place has been handled. There have been a few improvements here and there, but still the issue remains the same. There are simple solutions, but for some odd reason they go completely unheard. So I came back with another neat idea, here it is.

      • When a item is equipped or used, it gets titled 'Used'.
      • Used items reap full benefits only from the player who first used it.
      • When a player uses a used item which was first used by a different player, the item will provide reduced stats and durability than the original item, but it can still be equipped.
      • Used items cannot be sold on the market.
      • Repair will continue to repair durability for items, but it will not remove the 'Used' title.
      I guarantee this will fix the market and it's a rather simple solution too. To put it simple, in order for end products to become more valuable, they need to be purchased more regularly. That wont happen unless these items start getting out of the market and end up getting salvaged way more frequently than they do currently.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Trenix ()

    • Actually the crafting system and economy in Albion is one of the most well done parts of the game. I don't think you're considering the value of resource return from crafting with focus, or the subjective value of fame gained from crafting. Take a 6.1 mercenary hood for example. The recipe calls for 8 6.1 leather, but with resource return it really only costs 4-5 because you get 3-4 leather back when crafting with focus. If you consider it really only costs you 4 or 5 leather to craft, they're actually profitable at current market prices for 6.1 leather and 6.1 merc helms.

      The genius is that focus limits how much you can craft profitably per day, meaning supply is kept in check which keeps prices stable.
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    • High tier refined leather, costs more than all of it's end products. This is a fact. Not sure what you're trying to get at or talking about. Anyone can check the market place and confirm exactly what I'm saying. If you don't find that as a flaw, then you don't understand basic economics.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Trenix ()

    • I am afraid you don't fully oversee the consequences of your suggestions.

      Having used items have less efficiency on players other than the first user AND prohibiting a sale on the Auction House leads to combat loot being worthless, because noone really wants to use subpar equipment.

      So I would kill a player in the open world and I wouldn't even bother looting - because I can't sell the loot and I sure as hell won't use it. This would make open world PvP somewhat less of a thrill, thus damaging one of the core features of the game.

      And I think you didn't really read what Grimhawke wrote. You can't just compare the price of refined resources with the price of the finished product without factoring in returned mats due to focus and city-bonuses. You admited that you're not sure what Grimhawke was writing about - maybe it would be a wise course of action to read up on that or ask him to elaborate.
      Some People - wir rekrutieren
    • Especially with high lvl gears you have to consider more in the calculation. Primarily the chance of producing a masterpiece. There is a direct correlation between - for example - the price of 7.0 cursed staffs (1h) and the price of a 7.* cursed staff masterpiece. The filled T7 crafting books will bring nice return in a maxed out T8 labourer home. Other stuff will be produced just to lvl up crafting. Like people buy tomes for fame, people buy resources to max their focus usage and masterpiece chances. And you have to take the black market prices in account too.
    • Trenix schrieb:

      High tier refined leather, costs more than all of it's end products. This is a fact. Not sure what you're trying to get at or talking about. Anyone can check the market place and confirm exactly what I'm saying. If you don't find that as a flaw, then you don't understand basic economics.

      ofc, theres that thing called resource return, focus and labourers

      If people craft a lot of shit and demand is low... then you know what happens, right?>=

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von Elsa () aus folgendem Grund: Inappropriate

    • Trenix schrieb:

      High tier refined leather, costs more than all of it's end products. This is a fact. Not sure what you're trying to get at or talking about. Anyone can check the market place and confirm exactly what I'm saying. If you don't find that as a flaw, then you don't understand basic economics.
      I checked all the high end leather, and I make money making all of it. I honestly think that you just don't have a full grasp on the games mechanics. There isn't supposed to be easy and clear free arbitrage. Especially at the highest end and most expensive materials.

      It's weird to me that people are always just like, "I looked at the market for 2 minutes and now know its impossible to make money!" Well, if all you had to do was look at the market for 2 minutes, wouldn't you think that everyone else that had preceded you had done the same thing and made the transactions already to pick up all the free silver off the ground. Because they does.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Piddle ()

    • Raw resources have more demand then the products made with them since you can do more with it. Example, with some T6 planks, I can potentially make spears, bows, tools, magic staves or even furniture, however if I simply made a bow, then that bow is only valuable to the specific players that want or need that bow.

      So players are going to start buying up the wood more often then they will be buying up bows. This inflates the price of wood while the bows remain either stagnant or lose value due to over supply. In the event that the demand for bows goes higher then the supply you will see players buying up surplus wood to meet the supply needs of the bow until it becomes unprofitable to do so.

      Other factors that play in which were mentioned by various people include crafting focus and laborer's as well as the new city buffs that return bonus resources depending on what royal city you use. The market isn't broken, it is just being used a lot. One thing you could check up on is blackmarket prices for goods you make. There are moments when you can utilize the black market either by crafting the goods that are in demand or buying them off the auction house cheaper then the black market payout.
    • Neu

      Larec schrieb:

      I am afraid you don't fully oversee the consequences of your suggestions.

      Having used items have less efficiency on players other than the first user AND prohibiting a sale on the Auction House leads to combat loot being worthless, because noone really wants to use subpar equipment.

      So I would kill a player in the open world and I wouldn't even bother looting - because I can't sell the loot and I sure as hell won't use it. This would make open world PvP somewhat less of a thrill, thus damaging one of the core features of the game.

      And I think you didn't really read what Grimhawke wrote. You can't just compare the price of refined resources with the price of the finished product without factoring in returned mats due to focus and city-bonuses. You admited that you're not sure what Grimhawke was writing about - maybe it would be a wise course of action to read up on that or ask him to elaborate.
      Or kill players which are hauling items for sale.

      noxmortus schrieb:

      Trenix schrieb:


      • Used items reap full benefits only from the player who first used it.
      • Used items cannot be sold on the market.

      Used items - You hit the repair button and then they are able to be sold.

      Please learn the basic game mechanics first, it undermines your argument ;)
      I'm suggesting an idea, read it before you assume I don't know the mechanics. Otherwise, it just undermines your argument :). Once you use an item, it's permanently titled as such. That used title will not be removed upon repair. Repair only repairs durability, nothing more. You can repair your item all you want, but once it's used, it will not be able to be sold on the market.

      tabooshka schrieb:

      Trenix schrieb:

      High tier refined leather, costs more than all of it's end products. This is a fact. Not sure what you're trying to get at or talking about. Anyone can check the market place and confirm exactly what I'm saying. If you don't find that as a flaw, then you don't understand basic economics.
      ofc, theres that thing called resource return, focus and labourers

      If people craft a lot of shit and demand is low... then you know what happens, right?>=
      Yeah so how do you increase the demand? You find ways to take these items out of the market. It's either this or have items permanently break on you. Otherwise, the economy in this game will forever be broken, at least for people who play the market like myself.

      Piddle schrieb:

      Trenix schrieb:

      High tier refined leather, costs more than all of it's end products. This is a fact. Not sure what you're trying to get at or talking about. Anyone can check the market place and confirm exactly what I'm saying. If you don't find that as a flaw, then you don't understand basic economics.
      I checked all the high end leather, and I make money making all of it. I honestly think that you just don't have a full grasp on the games mechanics. There isn't supposed to be easy and clear free arbitrage. Especially at the highest end and most expensive materials.
      It's weird to me that people are always just like, "I looked at the market for 2 minutes and now know its impossible to make money!" Well, if all you had to do was look at the market for 2 minutes, wouldn't you think that everyone else that had preceded you had done the same thing and made the transactions already to pick up all the free silver off the ground. Because they does.
      Did you read what I said? I believe there is quite a bit of misunderstanding since I left this post. Selling leather makes more money than it's end products. Therefore yes if you're selling leather, you will make more money than selling armor, equipment, or other items that require leather. That's not how an actual economy works, unless it's broken. Efficiency will not alter this, because a business will not do extra work and pay extra expenses for an end-product that is worth less than it's resources. I rather sell leather and buy everything else from people who don't comprehend that they're wasting more time, effort, and money than someone who just sells leather. I did the math, I understand the market, and I actually have education in economics and business. I literally am telling you how to beat the market.

      DoomRawrus schrieb:

      Raw resources have more demand then the products made with them since you can do more with it. Example, with some T6 planks, I can potentially make spears, bows, tools, magic staves or even furniture, however if I simply made a bow, then that bow is only valuable to the specific players that want or need that bow.

      So players are going to start buying up the wood more often then they will be buying up bows. This inflates the price of wood while the bows remain either stagnant or lose value due to over supply. In the event that the demand for bows goes higher then the supply you will see players buying up surplus wood to meet the supply needs of the bow until it becomes unprofitable to do so.

      Other factors that play in which were mentioned by various people include crafting focus and laborer's as well as the new city buffs that return bonus resources depending on what royal city you use. The market isn't broken, it is just being used a lot. One thing you could check up on is blackmarket prices for goods you make. There are moments when you can utilize the black market either by crafting the goods that are in demand or buying them off the auction house cheaper then the black market payout.
      Exactly and that's why you find a way to make someone buy a bow and similar items more frequently, not just once. Wood and other raw and refined resources, are only valuable because people are using it to level their skills. It is not valuable because people are buying it to craft end-products.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Trenix ()

    • Neu

      Trenix I don't disagree that your suggestion would inflate the price of weapons and other gear. I at one point proposed an idea about diminishing durability as a way to slowly destroy items and create demand for new ones. Your proposed idea has some merits over the diminishing durability at least when it comes to implementation and the handling of the market, since with diminishing durability it would be a mess trying to organize products that all had varying durability.

      The part that I wonder about however is the effect it would have on the cost of resources. If bows start selling out because of high demand then I would predict that someone would notice and start buying up resources or collecting them to craft bows and fill that vacuum.

      At some point though the market will reach equilibrium where enough bows are being produced to meet the demands. Anytime the cost of buying resources becomes < the profits of crafting it into a bow and selling, someone will be there buying them up and crafting bows until we reach what we have right now, a market where there are more bows being produced then whats needed.

      So while I will agree that the change would boost the demand for other products, I still think in the end you will see a similar end where the market just stabilizes. We've seen how the market went with each server wipe, where at the start Tier 4 gear would cost thousands of silver because only a select few were capable of making those items but as the population grew and progressed the prices dropped. I don't think the market is broken, but could it be better or stronger? I think so.
    • Neu

      Trenix schrieb:


      Yeah so how do you increase the demand? You find ways to take these items out of the market. It's either this or have items permanently break on you. Otherwise, the economy in this game will forever be broken, at least for people who play the market like myself.
      We dont need increase demands only lower crafting items that cost less than resources , ppl craft more than other ppl can buy so price are lower . If u increase demands more ppl start craft and nothing change , its a sandbox game , dont change mechanics in this game beacouse u want craft with more profit .
    • Neu

      No amount of item turnover will make baseline crafting/refining profitable in the long run. Albion crafting/refining is a zero work activity. You walk up to AH, walk to station, walk back to AH. You're even completely safe during the whole process. You risked nothing, you contributed nothing, you deserve nothing. If this was somehow profitable, every crafter past the fame hurtle would just print silver until they caused a mat shortage and item glut resulting in no profit anyway.

      That leaves us where we are now. There is profit to be made when you spend focus. Since focus is a limited resource, supply is kept somewhat in check.
    • Neu

      SirusX715 schrieb:

      No amount of item turnover will make baseline crafting/refining profitable in the long run. Albion crafting/refining is a zero work activity. You walk up to AH, walk to station, walk back to AH. You're even completely safe during the whole process. You risked nothing, you contributed nothing, you deserve nothing. If this was somehow profitable, every crafter past the fame hurtle would just print silver until they caused a mat shortage and item glut resulting in no profit anyway.

      That leaves us where we are now. There is profit to be made when you spend focus. Since focus is a limited resource, supply is kept somewhat in check.
      This post can't be more wrong, theres plenty of opportunities to gain money from crafting WITHOUT using focus, whether its through paying attention to black market, reacting to shortage in supply, using blackzone plots for crafting, or using royal towns for refining.

      So, you are completely wrong my dude, sorry to break it to you.
    • Neu

      Trenix schrieb:


      Piddle schrieb:

      Trenix schrieb:

      High tier refined leather, costs more than all of it's end products. This is a fact. Not sure what you're trying to get at or talking about. Anyone can check the market place and confirm exactly what I'm saying. If you don't find that as a flaw, then you don't understand basic economics.
      I checked all the high end leather, and I make money making all of it. I honestly think that you just don't have a full grasp on the games mechanics. There isn't supposed to be easy and clear free arbitrage. Especially at the highest end and most expensive materials.It's weird to me that people are always just like, "I looked at the market for 2 minutes and now know its impossible to make money!" Well, if all you had to do was look at the market for 2 minutes, wouldn't you think that everyone else that had preceded you had done the same thing and made the transactions already to pick up all the free silver off the ground. Because they does.
      Did you read what I said? I believe there is quite a bit of misunderstanding since I left this post. Selling leather makes more money than it's end products. Therefore yes if you're selling leather, you will make more money than selling armor, equipment, or other items that require leather. That's not how an actual economy works, unless it's broken.
      I get that you don't get it. Which leads you to think it isn't working right. What I am telling you is that, just because you think it isn't working right, doesn't mean it isn't. It means that you don't understand what is going on around you as well as you think. Your idea is just an overly complicated way for me to make a lot more silver and I feel like I make enough silver already.

      Trenix schrieb:

      Efficiency will not alter this, because a business will not do extra work and pay extra expenses for an end-product that is worth less than it's resources. I rather sell leather and buy everything else from people who don't comprehend that they're wasting more time, effort, and money than someone who just sells leather. I did the math, I understand the market, and I actually have education in economics and business. I literally am telling you how to beat the market.
      Not all players are businesses. But, I always respect the guy, "Who did the math." So, show us your math.

      The thing about people with have education in economics and bigly business is that they usually understand that what creates markets is that different people evaluate things in different ways. The trick is not to get pigeon holed into thinking that the way you think it should be, is the only way that anyone else should think it should be. People go around this game doing all sorts of things that I find fascinating, because I wouldn't ever do them myself in a million years. That doesn't mean that they aren't acting rationally. It just means that they are evaluating things differently than I do. I just want to understand their motivations so that I can better serve them as a purveyor of carrots and other resources.
    • Neu

      tabooshka schrieb:

      SirusX715 schrieb:

      No amount of item turnover will make baseline crafting/refining profitable in the long run. Albion crafting/refining is a zero work activity. You walk up to AH, walk to station, walk back to AH. You're even completely safe during the whole process. You risked nothing, you contributed nothing, you deserve nothing. If this was somehow profitable, every crafter past the fame hurtle would just print silver until they caused a mat shortage and item glut resulting in no profit anyway.

      That leaves us where we are now. There is profit to be made when you spend focus. Since focus is a limited resource, supply is kept somewhat in check.
      This post can't be more wrong, theres plenty of opportunities to gain money from crafting WITHOUT using focus, whether its through paying attention to black market, reacting to shortage in supply, using blackzone plots for crafting, or using royal towns for refining.
      So, you are completely wrong my dude, sorry to break it to you.
      You seemed to miss the point of my post. Key words being baseline and long run. You can not just pick a weapon you want to craft an expect to reliably profit on the printed costs. Item shortages and material surplus are short term. Black market is a good way to make money, but gives little advantage to the crafter as anyone can buy off the AH and sell to BM. Everything else is efficiencies beyond the baseline.