[Weekly Talk] Hammers

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    • [Weekly Talk] Hammers

      What’s up, Anit here again and this is the third post of my Weekly Discussion about specific Weapons/Equipments and their spells. If you missed the other threads, I will leave a spoiler in the end where you can find them. Read and join the discussion if you want. Last week I talked about Frost, and following the idea of talking about all the Weapons first, this week is STOP… HAMMER TIME! Oh yeah is hammers.

      General Thoughts on Hammers

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      Hammers are probably the most fun tank weapon to play (in my opinion). Is super mobile with the slow charge, making you zipping and zapping all over the battle with the Great Hammer, getting big stuns with Grovekeeper, blinking and stunning enemies without giving them time to react, or destroying your enemies by showing how big you are with your normal attacks on Forge Hammers. Past METAS, hammers always somehow make appearance into them, either being the soldier armor cleave, smokebomb and druid sandals combo, and now with the delayed blink stun. Hammers is probably the main weapon that appears in ZvZs (who doesn’t like to dunk with a grovekeeper?), so for me Hammers are one of the most fun Tank weapons to be used. However, that doesn’t mean they don’t need some changes, because we can see a few spells being weak or useless making some weapons not appearing at all at different types of fights.


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      Knockout – Any Hammer (‘W’ slot spell)

      Current: I personally don’t like this spell, in a way is pretty balanced, you put enemy to “sleep” for quite some time, but it wake up the target if he got hit. Some people will say that is good for PVE, because you can put a monster to sleep for a long time, and focus the other one while its sleep. But I still don’t like it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, it could have a more useful spell, that can fit the playstyle of hammers.

      Changes: Only thing I can see is a rework or remove and put another spell in its place.

      Earth Shatter – 1 Handed Hammer (‘E’ slot spell)

      Current: There is no problem with this spell, but in my opinion is too strong and too simple. It has the same cooldown as polehammer, great hammer, and tomb hammer, but the difference between them is the fact that the ones above is Two Handed Hammers, while the “Normal Hammer” is not. That means you can use a Mister Caller (T8 reduces cooldown to 13%) and you can have an ‘E’ spell close to 10 seconds cooldown. This the only 1 Handed Hammer in the game, meaning right now is the most efficient Hammer if not the most efficient Tank Weapon in the game.

      Changes: This Weapon needs to be 3 to 5 seconds higher than other hammers (20 seconds cooldown maximum). This spell can also be reworked to the [Hammer Throw].

      Groundbreaker – Polehammer (‘E’ slot spell)

      Current: The problem with this spell is the width of it. The stun itself is not bad, but the concept it’s similar to the Tombhammer, and is pretty bad for what a Polehammer can do. If I started the game for me, polehammer would be the hammer that had the most damage of the other hammers.

      Changes: So the changes to it would be increase the damage and width of the spell, but I personally think it needs a rework to fit better the polehammer idea. Rework to [Brutal Force] spell.

      Grast of the Undead – Tombhammer (‘E’ slot spell)

      Current:The problem with this spell is the issue of getting blocked by the first enemy that was hit, but the name and visual of the spell fits well the design of the Tomb Hammer.

      Changes: Change it so the hand animation goes till the end of the spell limit, and roots everyone that got hit by it, or rework to the [Shockwave] spell.

      New Spells

      • Shockwave (‘E’ slot spell) – Possible Weapon: Tomb Hammer

      Shoots a shockwave in a straight line that goes through enemies, it deals damage. Enemies hit by the shockwave get electrocuted (stun similar to the judicator helmet).

      Explanation: Ranged ‘E’ ability for Hammers, while Quarterstaffs has Soulcythe (Tornado), and Maces has Camlann Mace (- and I know is pretty bad, but they have). Hammers have none (or at least have bad ones), so it would give the “balance” between tank weapons/spells.

      • Brutal Force (‘E’ slot spell) – Possible Weapon: Polehammer

      Swing your weapon in front of you (aoe similar to the threating smash from maces but larger). It does a lot of damage (the biggest of Hammers) and knock enemies away and they are slowed for 3 seconds.

      Explanation: So hammers doesn’t have any knockback spells, while Quarterstaffs has Iron Clad (), Maces recently got the Bedrock rework (), and hammers still nothing. Therefore, it goes to the same aspect of “balance” between tank weapons again.

      • Divine Blessing (‘W’ slot spell)

      Bless a target (can self-cast) with the Divinity buff –ally target gets immune to crowd control resistances (similar to knight helmet).

      Explanation: In my opinion, hammers and maces get some trouble against Quarterstaff Abilities, so it gives some help to play around it (where is love for paladins? :( ).

      • Hammer Throw (‘E’ slot spell) – possible weapons: 1 Handed Hammer

      Throw your hammer to a ground target location, it stuns all enemies around (aoe similar to the actual stun on the live server), the hammer stay on the ground for 5 seconds. If you get close to it, you “pick up” the hammer – if picked up the spell reduces 3 seconds of it cooldown, and you get ‘x’ resistances for 6 seconds (25-30 seconds cooldown).

      Explanation: I think the actual 1h Hammer spell is too strong, that require a nerf on it cooldown, but the spell is too simple to have a higher cooldown compared to the other hammers. In order to be higher than the other hammers, a rework for it can fit well, giving a cool mechanic to it and maybe a different way to play hammers.


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      Hammers passives aren’t that bad, but I can see two of them that can be switched for other ones.

      The first one is the life leech, I don’t like this passive that much you can see more people using the energetic one or the auto attack one. The other one is the CC increase, I can say that it would help more skilled players that keep track of the passive to increase the time of their crowd control spells, but at high-level gvgs/hgs/zvzs you don’t see it at all. You can probably see it at PVE but I am almost sure people would choose energetic over this one. So I thought on two new passives to add.

      Runic Hammer (new passive)

      After 5 normal attacks, your next attack will do magic damage bonus and slow 20% of target move speed for 3 seconds.

      Iron Skin (new passive)

      After 4 normal attacks, you gain ‘x’ resistances for 3 seconds.


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      Hammers in general is a super good tank weapon. Like I said on the start of the post, you can always see hammers being brought to every meta. All I feel for Tanks in general is the lack of balance between tank weapons. I like the sandbox idea that you can get a hammer and make a damage build to it, that it could be the Polehammer like the 1 handed mace got recently changed, the long-range engage weapon that you have on Soulscythe you could have for hammers and maces too(Tombhammers, Camlann Mace). Hammers is super fun to play, but all weapons needs some smaller changes not only to make them useful but to make their concept fits the spell and playstyle. I hope you liked the post for this week, leave your ideas and what and why you do disagree. I see you next week.

      Past Threads

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Protheus ().

    • i mostly play openworld Ghammer, not really a GvG player. Hammers have always been about Stuns, to shift E’s to be more dmg based and less stun seems very anti hammer. While I think yes, Qstaff might benefit from more knock backs(interrupt/resistance/movement Q + movement/CC W), that’s its whole thing... maces root, hammers stun, qstaff knocks. to add knockback spells as the main component of a hammer E seems like a dilution of the Role. More utility should be added on Qs and Ws if more variety is desired.

      I agree polehammer needs a buff, either a width buff or a cone shape for the E. It’s one of the few ranged stuns that shows its ability in stunning thru obstacles (like a soulscythe up a castle wall) ; which no other hammer could do. Part of why Polehammer use to be the definitive castle hammer.
      i don’t believe it should be a “higher dmg” spell. That seems more like nostalgia for beta 2 cloth blink polehammer meta than actual balance suggestions. Keep dmg on W or Q not E, E is for CC primarily.

      1h Hammer is Indeed strong for its quick CD and it’s ability to interrupt and setup frequently. However the cc durations quite low when compared to Grove or other hammer stuns. I think this helps balance its use. Another element is it’s lack of mobility for stunning when compared to every other hammer. There’s zero range component, you need to use a 2nd spell to land your E if at a distance.

      I think Tombhammer ya definitely in need of a rework. Most of the ideas I’ve seen are pretty reasonable as long as they incorporate the undead theme.

      Another one is Forge Hammer. If you wear guardian armor it becomes a one man mobile icicle. Few large guilds have really embraced it and it’s rly quite effective in large fights with the resistance ignoring slow aura + resistances.

      The last point is dreadladen I actually think this spells brilliant for any player mindful enough to keep track. Shouldn’t be removed imo, it’s a free hunter boot for smart players.

      the one thing I hate above all else is Fort Sterling capes. above all, a self-procing cleanse is so lazy. So anti skill. Fort sterling capes alone have cause a massive degreadation in Hammer effectiveness, on the other hand it’s opened the meta to low CD hammers. openworld Fort Sterling is still aids, you first engagement is entirely worthless beyond popping ft sterling capes.

      The post was edited 7 times, last by owensssss ().

    • Always been a giant step main, even back in the day when it was on the great hammer E. I feel its strong and in a good spot i just feel like healing reduction in this game atm needs toned down, would bring more swords,daggers, and really any other dps in the game but atm healing reduction reigns key and which it should. Tone down all healing reduction on weps and you would see more builds played. All in all hammers in a good spot, pole hammer and tomb hammer need some rework there dead and useless lol
    • owensssss wrote:

      i mostly play openworld Ghammer, not really a GvG player. Hammers have always been about Stuns, to shift E’s to be more dmg based and less stun seems very anti hammer. While I think yes, Qstaff might benefit from more knock backs(interrupt/resistance/movement Q + movement/CC W), that’s its whole thing... maces root, hammers stun, qstaff knocks. to add knockback spells as the main component of a hammer E seems like a dilution of the Role. More utility should be added on Qs and Ws if more variety is desired.
      I understand, you have a point. But it isnt the way SBI is making the balance changes going to, because recently maces got a knockback spell on Bedrock mace (that I kinda didint like much, but is better than the old one). So Quarterstaffs have the knockback on Iron-Clad, and Maces got it too, and Hammers dont have it. If you see they way the changes are going a fair add to hammers is a knockback for Hammers too. I know it wouldnt fit the hammer playstyle, but if maces got it recently why not the hammers tho? The same way as for Polehammer, is with 1 handed mace, they got a Damage version for the maces, and hammers didint, quarterstaffs didint. So all the changes SBI made is not to make hammers stun, maces root, quarterstaffs knockback, is to balance and give options and diversity on every tree. So since they doing it for maces recently, they have to do the same way as for the other "Tank" Weapon Trees. That was the whole process on my thoughts and why the changes for hammers should be that way, not the exactly but similiar to it.
    • yea, it might be SBIs direction. 1h mace also got the pure dmg E (weird change imo).

      with that direction itd make sense to use those underpowered weapons as a test bed. i wouldnt necessarily be against it, itd be interesting to see what they come up with.
      i suppose the tank weapons are actually some of the least diverse when compared to each weapon type, You usually have to totally switch weapon types (1h hammer/heavy mace/ ironclad etc) for any meaningful change.
    • Polehammer needs to be a narrow triangle hitbox with the effect being in 2 or 3 sections, similar to the way the new Frost Nova (the recently added Frost "W") is, with enemies at the front of the cone suffering lower damage and stun, and the enemies towards the end of it suffering significantly more damage and stun duration than say, a good .65s to 1.2s longer than current values?

      If you look into history and review the weapon by name, and intended use, it was used to "catch" people at range or dismount riders from horses.

      The reward for aiming a successful skill-shot should be greater than a simpler cast ability. Currently, there is a small reward for the more challenging use of Polehammer as opposed to the Great Hammer, in which Great Hammer also has an additional 2 meters of distance on the "E" ability. This bonus is a neglible difference in the grand scheme of things in terms of additional damage (roughly an addtional 7-15 base damage) and stun duration (around .45 seconds on average).

      Furthermore there is no downside, other than the cost, to using a Grovekeeper when it comes ZvZ.
    • owensssss wrote:

      yea, it might be SBIs direction. 1h mace also got the pure dmg E (weird change imo).
      I actually dont know why SBI changed E spell on mace too,1 more mobility spell on E with average damage on mace. When it have lowest native defense penetration,looks very weird. I would understand if this E spell would knock back people into the air , or any other balanced CC. Just damage...it is so bad in my opinion. A jumping machine , looks cool on paper with several setups(Hybrid setups, not a pure tank), but nothing special.

      If i would play on one-handed maces as main weapon, i would be so mad :/
    • RottenH20 wrote:

      Protheus wrote:

      Snaxxor wrote:

      If you look into history and review the weapon by name, and intended use, it was used to "catch" people at range or dismount riders from horses.
      Then would be cool to have a spell mechanic that you pull people into you, similar to the air compressor but in a cone area in front of you.
      Didnt old black monk do that or camlan mace?
      Blackmonk was a dash that grouped everyone, and the camlan throw the air compressor mechanic. So the spell wouldnt be a air compressor, would be straight up the hammer animation pulling the people into you.
    • Nice thread again, thanks!

      For me personally I have a bit different feel about hammers than you but that comes I guess to roleplaying aspect a bit.

      * Two handed hammer - the most aggressive, obscenely large weapon, should do most direct damage
      * Pole hammer - thanks to its reach the most influential hammer weapon out there on battlefield (reach and stun focused)
      * 1h hammer - buldog style - most defense you can get, protecting you and your backline (knockback, punishing slows [I mean punishing, not like current slows on hammer line, I am here to teach you about the new meaning of 'slime speed'], defense buffs for party)
      * tomb hammer - I don't really feel much about this one, current implementation is 'sufficiently thematic', I'd not mind a little boost so there's a reason to use it actually

      As for passives, if you go full tank/utility, you probably need to use Energetic which is a pity as the CC-centered passive looks good on paper. I'd not mind if they merged Lifesteal with Energetic, giving maybe lesser lifesteal to ranged weapons to keep them from being OP if really needed.
    • tomb hammer E could create a 2nd aoe on hit (same size as current aoe) with the animation of some ghastly souls or the like reducing cast speed / increasing cd (for 1s standing in the aoe ur cds wouldnt be reduced by 1s but less, e.g. 0.5) lasting for a few seconds
      edit: 2nd aoe could also just add a slow to keepand improve the cc idea