Healers are overpowered

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    • Healers are overpowered

      Hi all, the more i think about this the more i realise how much content it messes up for small groups. (2v2 hellgates mainly, it also jeopardises the creation of 1v1 content )

      The fact that you NEED a healer in every group is a problem, and that a healer can pretty much win every match up 1 v 1 is a huge problem.

      Its almost impossible to burst a healer in a 1v1 or a 2v2 scenario with even IP

      There is no other weapon slot that is needed 100% of the time in a team comp but a healer.

      In their current state you could cut the healing output of most healing staffs substantially, and they would still be used in gvg .



      My solution would be to give everybody passive health regen while in combat, and then rework healers to focus more on being "enchanters" protecting people with larger cooldowns and less spam heals.

      in theory this change wouldnt affect the length of pvp encounters in any way. only stop healers from winning through outsustaining every fight.




      i know this sounds harsh, but i truly believe its the only way to diversify 2v2 meta and open possibilities of 1 v 1 content.


      cheers.
    • Agree. I regularly solo/duo, but in a 2v2 and the other guys have a healer, we lose. Unless you happen to have build that counters, like silence, then their healer combo is OP.

      Your point, that no other role/ability being "required" is correct. 2v2 and up to 5v5 in PVP, if one side has a healer and the other side does not, the healer side wins. This is often played out in pvp for Silver Chests, for example.

      Your idea is interesting, but I don't see any change being made. Too many healers are complaining they don't have enough combat power after some nerfs.

      An alternative would be to nerf some of the spells, like divine staff's shield then AOE heal.

      There are so many variables, that this seems unsolvable if the goal is to make everyone happy.
    • @Fusionbomb hey dude, what comp are you running?

      personally i find that the only way you can beat a healer is with insane burst dmg and hard cc.. if you dont kill them in the first moments of the fight tis almost a guaranteed loss.

      the main reason being is the sustain, not because the team with the healer outplayed their opponent.

      id prefer a scenario where the enemy burst/focus is denied by a healer, in the moment it happens (requiring good timing), not just spam heals to top them up and then eventually winning the fight because the team that lost doesnt have any health left..
    • LOT of weaponry cuts a healer:
      - Axes (all), Carrioncaller (especially). having good DPS and cutting healing ability
      - Daggers (all) with "Forbidden Stab" skill
      - Cursed (all), with Grudge spell, maintaining constant Q+Grudge pressure. In 2v2 healer Not outhealing it.
      - Hammers and Quarterstaffs, they provide enough stuns so healer just cant do anything.
    • @Khladraven oh comon man, im not saying it is impossible, im saying its overpowered.

      this combo has the highest burst for a 2 v 2 there possibly is.

      and most of the reason they win in is because their enemy doesn't know whats coming

      also, all of these are against nature. holy is whats busted the most atm.

      as stated, the only possible way to beat a healer is to burst it, but in a 2v2 environment there is very little that can do that much dmg.

      just because its possible to beat doesnt mean its not op.
    • Neu

      heyw0od schrieb:

      @Khladraven oh comon man, im not saying it is impossible, im saying its overpowered.

      this combo has the highest burst for a 2 v 2 there possibly is.

      and most of the reason they win in is because their enemy doesn't know whats coming

      also, all of these are against nature. holy is whats busted the most atm.

      as stated, the only possible way to beat a healer is to burst it, but in a 2v2 environment there is very little that can do that much dmg.

      just because its possible to beat doesnt mean its not op.
      Do you know the game rock-paper-scissors?
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/82954-Guide-What-order-to-level-items-in-to-get-the-most-specialization-for-your-time/
    • Neu

      heyw0od schrieb:


      just because its possible to beat doesnt mean its not op.
      How about you provide us with a scenario (video would be better) where you find a specific heal staff to be OP?

      Maybe then we can see more of your perspective and potentially offer solutions to beat it.
      Fusionbomb - GM of Morbidly_Obese

      T8 Axe/Sickle/Pickaxe/Skinning Knife
      T6 Stone Hammer

      100/60/60/30 Holy Specs
    • Neu

      Just gonna say that you need to be careful. If they were truly overpowered they would be everywhere, as it stands healers are one of the least played classes in the game. Nerfing them any more just further removes the incentive for people to play them. Two things:

      • For solo, if a healer takes a full heal build, they can't kill you, but you can't kill them. All you need to do is walk away.
      • If they take a strong 1v1 build out as has already been mentioned it's just rock, paper, scissors. Claws counter divine, Great holy counters claws, lifetouch counters daggers, but can be out dps'd by spears/fire. Not everything can beat everything, there are always weaknesses in place.
      Only things I have a problem with right now that make the healer situation bad is broken cleric robe + graveguard combo, with this on a healer he isn't dying anytime soon, and the fact that druidic seed cannot be purged anymore. The main problem with druid staff being the fact that you cant even see healing skill effect, making it almost impossible to healing debuff at the opportune time.
      Hop on in to my Discord and Twitch ^^
    • Neu

      @Khladraven my issue wih the "walk away" argument is that its not possible when you are fighting for an objective (chests,hellgates). In one of these scenarios, you only have 1 option as a healerless group. win in 15 seconds or get out sustained bleed out.

      im going to guess that 2v2 comps without healer have a much lower win ratio for this reason.

      the reason why less people play healer is not related to their strength, its the same reason why support classes are less popular in every game: people want to "carry".

      @Stravanov i hate this argument. if healers were rock, rock would beat scissors and paper 90%+ of the time.


      edit: as for examples.

      how often have you 1v1'd a healer and won? (even item power)

      has a healerless gvg comp ever been successful? u can have comps without cc, without range dps, without any other class but a healer and still have a chance.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von heyw0od ()

    • Neu

      heyw0od schrieb:

      @Stravanov i hate this argument. if healers were rock, rock would beat scissors and paper 90%+ of the time.


      edit: as for examples.

      how often have you 1v1'd a healer and won? (even item power)

      has a healerless gvg comp ever been successful? u can have comps without cc, without range dps, without any other class but a healer and still have a chance.

      To answer your questions:

      I don't play much. Its very rare that I do 1v1. I 1v1'd a nature healer as arcane a couple days ago tho. And won.
      But yes, obviously healers are good against a disproportionate number of weapons. There needs to be a healing reduction ability on a medium headpiece or something so make more weapons viable against healers.

      A healerless GvG comp is probably not viable. Healers are a force multiplier. The more players are in a fight, the more healers can multiply. Unless we reach some upper limit where the DPS can kill a group of players in mere seconds.
      GvG's happen to be exactly in between those two outliers: There is enough people to multiply to make it powerful, and there is not so much DPS present that the participants die before healing can become a factor. Therefore, healers will always be very powerful in GvG, because it's the perfect setting for healers.


      But yes. Overall healing is a bit too powerful in the current small scale PvP meta.
      To elaborate on my proposed solution:
      We need a short healing debuff on a leather headpiece. Maybe -75% healing for 5 seconds on a 30 or 45 second cooldown.
      This would give more "burst" weapons a chance to kill the healer within those 5 seconds. But also make them lose the fight if they don't manage to kill the healer in that time.
      It would also put the player in question at a disadvantage when he meets another DPS player with a more useful head ability.
      Numbers can be tweaked of course. But I think it's a pretty decent concept to slightly bump the "healer > all" meta in 1v1. And I don't think it'd really affect ZvZ a whole lot. Not sure how it would affect the GvG meta.

      Generally the devs fucked up on itemization. I proposed complete overhauls to the way items work. But this particular change can be implemented overnight without the need for a more systemic change.

      **EDIT**
      And thank you for being part of the 5% of forum users that are able to have a normal intelligent conversation. I never saw your name before. But you're a welcome sight to a forum that used to be full of emo kids.
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/82954-Guide-What-order-to-level-items-in-to-get-the-most-specialization-for-your-time/
    • Neu

      heyw0od schrieb:

      There is no other weapon slot that is needed 100% of the time in a team comp but a healer.
      You could certainly make the same statement about dps and anytime the party gets over 3-4 a tank is pretty important too. Maybe your real problem is only two weapon lines fit the 'slot' of healer ;)

      Also healers are pretty bad/useless in small party ganking because they have limited mobility. So there's one type of content you generally don't see healers.

      This game is generally balanced for 5v5+. This suggestion would be incredibly overpowered in 5v5:

      Stravanov schrieb:

      We need a short healing debuff on a leather headpiece. Maybe -75% healing for 5 seconds on a 30 or 45 second cooldown.

      It will be hard for the devs to balance everything for 1v1 and 2v2 as well. Honestly I'm shocked at how good the balance is at those low numbers.

      heyw0od schrieb:

      has a healerless gvg comp ever been successful? u can have comps without cc, without range dps, without any other class but a healer and still have a chance.
      LOL WHAT? Almost all GvG comps have a tank, ranged dps, and melee dps. You certainly can't have a GvG team without a dps. It's extremely rare to not have a tank.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Lanyday () aus folgendem Grund: misquoted heyw0od